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[Deer Hunter]

Here is the trophy antelope outfitter allocations plotted against the resident/non-resident draw results for 2012 and 2011. The "O" allocation allows outfitters to hunt with a bow or rifle (in addition to their bow allocated tags) whereas the resident/ non-resident draw is only for the rifle season.

Notice that there are over 27,000 residents/non residents in the draw for this hunt with only 160 resident/non-resident tags given out in 2011 and 140 in 2012. Its going to be a long wait here.
2011:


2012:

[avb3]

It really is time for this to be corrected. I suspect the AFGA reps at the table are attempting to get it corrected, but I also suspect it is time that the bureaucrats and the politicians get to understand how hunters AND voters in general feel about this.

APOS needs to understand that once that starts, the ball may start rolling in a direction they may not want with regards to other species as well, even those where an equitable share does exist.

Don't let the argument of Species Management Areas versus WMUs get in the way, nor the issue of pre-sold hunts by outfitters. They have been used as detractions in the past.

[Sakoman]

Deer hunter thanks for the charts they are really eye opening!

[packhuntr]

Everyone knew these numbers were abit out of whack,, post winter 2010. The pronghorn management was nonexistent even after a severe string of die offs leading up to the big one in 2010. Had there been people at the helm with half a clue what they were doing, residents would not have tags cut back to what they are currently, because pronghorn would not be in the toilet to the extent they are, and as such these outfitter numbers wouldnt appear near as out as they look here. With the 5 year just timing out i would suspect things should be in line with srd's latest greatest. How about looking at some current numbers. The gong show that has existed in this province was srd's doing, no one else's. Again, maybe its time to look at srd's new numbers and see just what they have in mind for residents and outfitters alike.

[eggo]

There is just not enough antelope in this province to have any non residents hunting them

[rcmc]

I can't help but think with the 5 year allocation up for review that Apos will be putting a lot of pressure on the process, to have resident allocations increased from where they are today so their allocation cut back (percentage) won't be so steep,in all species, not just antelope.

[cacty]

Originally Posted by eggo

There is just not enough antelope in this province to have any non residents hunting them

Exactly!

[LongDraw]

Originally Posted by eggo

There is just not enough antelope in this province to have any non residents hunting them

Yes!

[The Spruce]

Thanks for the info. What an eye opener! I cannot believe we have to now wait 9 or 10 years to draw in some zones...or we can just hire an outfitter and go every year. Complete bs. Most of these zones listed can clearly not have guided hunts. There needs to be change, 5 years is to long for review, especially when talking about speed goats. It seems like we lose a little bit more every year...

[K44]

Originally Posted by rcmc

I can't help but think with the 5 year allocation up for review that Apos will be putting a lot of pressure on the process, to have resident allocations increased from where they are today so their allocation cut back (percentage) won't be so steep,in all species, not just antelope.

Ditto

[thumper]

"There is just not enough antelope in this province to have any non residents hunting them "
Very true. Just because an animal is available to resident hunters doesn't mean that it has be available to non-residents as well. Manage antelope like Saskatchewan manages mule deer.

Or if they can't bring themselves to withdraw antelope from non-residents, then why not increase the license fee by 1000% and let the market limit the non-resident #s?

I really don't understand why non-residents want to antelope hunt in Alberta - if you're going to travel any distance to hunt them, why hunt them in the extreme northern edge of their range? Why not go to Wyoming ?

[J.B.]

Originally Posted by eggo

There is just not enough antelope in this province to have any non residents hunting them

I don't even understand why a non res would choose Alberta to hunt antelope...smaller herds, generally smaller animals, and I would assume across the international border for most...if I had the cash to hunt out of province I would look for a place with a much higher B&C kill rate than Alberta...I agree 100% there should not be any non res. Hunting for antelope...

[Rackmastr]

Originally Posted by J.B.

I don't even understand why a non res would choose Alberta to hunt antelope...smaller herds, generally smaller animals, and I would assume across the international border for most...if I had the cash to hunt out of province I would look for a place with a much higher B&C kill rate than Alberta...

There have actually been a good number of big bucks taken in Alberta in the past 5-10 years by both outfitters and residents. Some outfitters have a pretty high success on good quality bucks over the 80" which is a pretty good standard I'd say. Even Wyoming, Montana, etc hunts shoot a lot of 'average' bucks and until you start heading to Arizona or New Mexico, etc the 'quality' of an Alberta hunt can be up there pretty good from what I've seen.

True....if I wanted to kill a smasher antelope I'd go to Arizona or NM, but a lot of guys do combo hunts for mulies, etc and some guys just want to hunt Alberta.

The numbers are out of skew no doubt for antelope with the 5 year management system, but I still support a portion of tags going to outfitters/non-residents as I support it in other states/provinces as well. Just needs to be managed a bit closer for numbers, etc as pointed out.

[packhuntr]

Thats right Rack for sure man. On a personal level i just cant understand why so many residents are WILLING to watch BS pronghorn management, and in turn by CHOICE put up with low herd numbers, young buck age structures due to extremely high harvest rates, and then fight as if theres nothing wrong with the situation over an extremely limited number of tags when there nearly are no pronghorn left. To summarize,,, why fight over a small handful of tags when there could and SHOULD be a much more stable population virtually eliminating this situation. The fight should be focussed on managers providing better herd management, not for tag scraps after the sh!t has hit the fan.

[Duk Dog]

Originally Posted by Rackmastr

There have actually been a good number of big bucks taken in Alberta in the past 5-10 years by both outfitters and residents. Some outfitters have a pretty high success on good quality bucks over the 80" which is a pretty good standard I'd say. Even Wyoming, Montana, etc hunts shoot a lot of 'average' bucks and until you start heading to Arizona or New Mexico, etc the 'quality' of an Alberta hunt can be up there pretty good from what I've seen.

True....if I wanted to kill a smasher antelope I'd go to Arizona or NM, but a lot of guys do combo hunts for mulies, etc and some guys just want to hunt Alberta.

The numbers are out of skew no doubt for antelope with the 5 year management system, but I still support a portion of tags going to outfitters/non-residents as I support it in other states/provinces as well. Just needs to be managed a bit closer for numbers, etc as pointed out.

Agreed Rack. Give priority to residents, but with a properly managed system there is no reason there can't be an opportunity for NR as well as residents.

[Deer Hunter]

Originally Posted by Rackmastr

Just needs to be managed a bit closer for numbers, etc as pointed out.

With 27,000 people in the draw and 160 successful per year, outfitter allocations should be cancelled until further notice. That is "a bit closer" in my book.

[Rackmastr]

Originally Posted by Deer Hunter

With 27,000 people in the draw and 160 successful per year, outfitter allocations should be cancelled until further notice. That is "a bit closer" in my book.

I enjoy opportunity in several states and provinces. There are only a few Desert sheep tags out there as well, but I'm super glad that states allow Non-Residents to apply for a MUCH more coveted tag.

Add in all the opportunity in States and provinces for both guided, un-guided, and hosted hunts and I'm happy to give up some opportunity to non-residents as long as its managed properly.

Are the numbers out of whack? Yep....you bet. I just dont see cancelling them all together as the most 'reasonable' option. I can see why some would want it completely cancelled, but I'm more for a balanced approach with resident priority and percentage (thats monitored) set aside for non-resident opportunity.

Some guys are happy to hunt in their province alone and just want the opportunity for 100% resident and thats fine. I'm just one of the guys who enjoys out-of-province opportunity, guided opportunity, etc so that means that I support non-resident tags locally as well. Different strokes for different folks I guess...

[Rackmastr]

Originally Posted by packhuntr

Thats right Rack for sure man. On a personal level i just cant understand why so many residents are WILLING to watch BS pronghorn management, and in turn by CHOICE put up with low herd numbers, young buck age structures due to extremely high harvest rates, and then fight as if theres nothing wrong with the situation over an extremely limited number of tags when there nearly are no pronghorn left. To summarize,,, why fight over a small handful of tags when there could and SHOULD be a much more stable population virtually eliminating this situation. The fight should be focussed on managers providing better herd management, not for tag scraps after the sh!t has hit the fan.

Agreed there Pack. The EASY answer is to 'cancel this' or scrap that, but the true answer lies in proper management.

[Deer Hunter]

Originally Posted by Rackmastr

Agreed there Pack. The EASY answer is to 'cancel this' or scrap that, but the true answer lies in proper management.

Maybe proper management means cancelling something all together. You and pack want residents, want non residents, want outfitting, want crankers...but sometimes numbers just won't allow for it. Cant make something out of nothing you know.
Hunting demand in alberta is on the rise, and local demand should precede all others.

[Duk Dog]

Originally Posted by Deer Hunter

Maybe proper management means cancelling something all together. You and pack want residents, want non residents, want outfitting, want crankers...but sometimes numbers just won't allow for it. Cant make something out of nothing you know.
Hunting demand in alberta is on the rise, and local demand should precede all others.

This wasn't directed to me, but we will agree to disagree on this. IMO proper management of different scenarios is possible.... Much more to the equation than simply people/tags - ie access, habitat and predator management to name a few.

[Rackmastr]

Originally Posted by Deer Hunter

Hunting demand in alberta is on the rise, and local demand should precede all others.

I 100% agree with you on that one. I'm all for resident priority. I just also accept that non-residents should have some opportunity, for the same reason I enjoy non-resident opportunity in other places. As I said, there are non-resident opportunities for desert bighorn which is a MUCH more coveted tag than an antelope and the States that do it seem to make it work with sound management and balance. No reason why the same sound practices shouldnt work in Alberta.

I totally acknowledge that there is an issue. I think the BIGGER issue is that just because my opinion is different and I dont think that it should be closed 100%, it should turn into an argument. There needs to be productive conversation and everyone needs to realize that you're going to have a TON of differing opinions on it.

Addressing the issue is the biggest key....you've done some good work to get that started. Not everyone will agree 100% on what should be done and thats totally fine. Just a matter of finding the best fit for the situation.

[J.B.]

Originally Posted by Rackmastr

There have actually been a good number of big bucks taken in Alberta in the past 5-10 years by both outfitters and residents. Some outfitters have a pretty high success on good quality bucks over the 80" which is a pretty good standard I'd say. Even Wyoming, Montana, etc hunts shoot a lot of 'average' bucks and until you start heading to Arizona or New Mexico, etc the 'quality' of an Alberta hunt can be up there pretty good from what I've seen.

True....if I wanted to kill a smasher antelope I'd go to Arizona or NM, but a lot of guys do combo hunts for mulies, etc and some guys just want to hunt Alberta.

The numbers are out of skew no doubt for antelope with the 5 year management system, but I still support a portion of tags going to outfitters/non-residents as I support it in other states/provinces as well. Just needs to be managed a bit closer for numbers, etc as pointed out.

Fair enough...I do know of big bucks taken in Alberta and have seen some dandies myself...populations in the states are considerably higher on average so I would think most guys would want to hunt - where they can see the most animals with a good chance of taking a big buck.
I bet Alberta doesn't even crack the top ten for total B&C entries...I don't think that every non res Hunting opportunity should be removed but I think the antelope should be reserved for residents with numbers as low as they are....

[Rackmastr]

Originally Posted by J.B.

Fair enough...I do know of big bucks taken in Alberta and have seen some dandies myself...populations in the states are considerably higher on average so I would think most guys would want to hunt - where they can see the most animals with a good chance of taking a big buck.
I bet Alberta doesn't even crack the top ten for total B&C entries...I don't think that every non res Hunting opportunity should be removed but I think the antelope should be reserved for residents with numbers as low as they are....

Same reason there are several people that go to all sorts of states or provinces for black bears, sheep, mulies, whiteys, elk, moose, etc, etc...

Not every place that a hunter chooses to go will be a "Top 10" state or province. Some guys make their choices based on a number of other things.

Alberta outfitters do produce some big bucks, and anything in the 80"+ range is a big buck IMO...

[trophyboy]

eggo is 100% correct, and the same goes for mule deer, I really can't believe these numbers and I can't believe any outfitter can actually show their face in public. Only in alberta!