2013 Archery Mule deer going on Draw

Originally Posted by mulecrazy

Thats rich. The only thing they know for sure is that they don't know how many are being killed. You have yourself said that the 15.85% is the number of licenses sold. Licenses sold does not equate to harvest. Since it is common sense that success rates are much lower for archery (likely well less than half that of rifle) then that number would undoubtedly fall well below 15% and closer to 5-7% of actual harvest.

At home and at work I refuse to do something that I do not have all the facts. I don't open a pig sender unless I verify multiple ways that the pressure is gone. It should be no different with the ESRD, they should not make such massive changes unless they have all the facts. They are operating on assumptions and extrapolation of data.

I take it stats wasn't a major in school for you. Rifle hunters numbers are controlled by draw....not all 100,000 of them are eligible to hunt mule deer each year. In fact only a very small percentage are. Archers are not controled by draw so all of them could be hunting every year. That's why your calculation doesn't work. It not a proportional percentage. In WMU106 for example, one mule deer would put it over the 15%. Even if archery success was 5%, it could still put it well over the 15% cap in many WMUs.

Originally Posted by Lefty-Canuck

I wasn't even aware of that so hard to complain when you don't know.

LC

You weren't aware that the crossbow question was part of the voluntary harvest survey....come on LC......the innocent routine is running thin.

[The Bit Runner.]

Originally Posted by sheephunter

It kept crossbows out of archery season....I didn't hear you complaining about its accuracy then

My head is buried too deep in the sand i guess .

Crossbows..... Thats another topic that we dont want to get into as we have been through this one all last year but you know my feelings there. It is FAR from archery equipment THATS WHY ITS NOT IN ARCHERY SEASON.

Originally Posted by The Bit Runner.

My head is buried too deep in the sand i guess .

Crossbows..... Thats another topic that we dont want to get into as we have been through this one all last year but you know my feelings there. It is FAR from archery equipment THATS WHY ITS NOT IN ARCHERY SEASON.

My point is that it was the same flawed harvest survey that everyone is complaining about that asked the question about crossbows but I don't hear you complaining about that. So one part is accurate and the other horribly flawed? I'm not saying the survey is 100% but it's far from useless too, especially when viewed over several years to see a trend develop.

[Lefty-Canuck]

Originally Posted by sheephunter

You weren't aware that the crossbow question was part of the voluntary harvest survey....come on LC......the innocent routine is running thin.

What year was that in Sheep? that the survey had that question on it? Was it an online survey? or was it a phone call that year?

From the words of someone wise , stop trying to put words in my mouth.

LC

[Lefty-Canuck]

Originally Posted by sheephunter

My point is that it was the same flawed harvest survey that everyone is complaining about that asked the question about crossbows but I don't hear you complaining about that. So one part is accurate and the other horribly flawed? I'm not saying the survey is 100% but it's far from useless too, especially when viewed over several years to see a trend develop.

It is a different type of stat Sheep....one is an opinion taken of the complete sample. (Do you want X-bows used during archery season)

The other is a data collection not based on an opinion but on real results.... (Did you harvest a XXX with your bow this year in what WMU?)

....if the real results are not reflected in the survey the data is mush...

LC

[pottymouth]

Originally Posted by sheephunter

My point is that it was the same flawed harvest survey that everyone is complaining about that asked the question about crossbows but I don't hear you complaining about that. So one part is accurate and the other horribly flawed? I'm not saying the survey is 100% but it's far from useless too, especially when viewed over several years to see a trend develop.

Maybe the Alberta crossbows association should have stepped up and done something about it!

Originally Posted by Lefty-Canuck

What year was that in Sheep? that the survey had that question on it? Was it an online survey? or was it a phone call that year?

From the words of someone wise , stop trying to put words in my mouth.

LC

Seriously? You don't remember the great crossbow vote? You were awfully active in the discussion on here. Seeing as the on-line surveys have been around for three years and the crossbow question was asked a year ago....I'll let you figure it out

Originally Posted by Lefty-Canuck

It is a different type of stat Sheep....one is an opinion taken of the complete sample.

The other is a data collection not based on an opinion but on real results....if the real results are not reflected in the survey the data is mush...

LC

I thought you didn't remember it....now you're an expert....come on Lefty....which is it?

[Rob Miskosky]

Originally Posted by pottymouth

Maybe the Alberta crossbows association should have stepped up and done something about it!

The vote was pretty close if I remember correctly, and that was without an association.

[ishootbambi]

Originally Posted by pottymouth

Maybe the Alberta crossbows association should have stepped up and done something about it!

dont give them ideas....ive actually heard rumblings of that happening.

[Lefty-Canuck]

Originally Posted by sheephunter

I thought you didn't remember it....now you're an expert....come on Lefty....which is it?

OK....lol.

I don't have to recall the survey to know that one piece of data is opinion based and the other is results and number based.

Stop putting words in my mouth Sheep, it is disrespectful (I was once told) I never said I was an expert

LC

[pottymouth]

Let me guess, Srd is including the numbers from the 3 bow zones in there 15% cap?

Where mule deer harvest stats are always 100% , because of the archery only concept!

That doesn't skew facts and numbers

[C Taylor]

I was with the understanding that it was clubs like aba and F&G that voted against crossbows. not just a voluntary survey. didn't know the survey was so powerful.
I find it strange how the stats change since it has gone from phone calls to being online. I believe what could be throwing the stats out of wack would be the hunters that get drawn for rifle but go hunting with a bow first. then the online survey would show a bowhunter that got his deer, not mentioning that it was with a rifle in november. Great thing about stats is if you ask the right questions you can get what ever answer you want.

[Rob Miskosky]

The questions are very straight forward, and they ask which weapon did you use.

[pottymouth]

Originally Posted by pottymouth

Let me guess, Srd is including the numbers from the 3 bow zones in there 15% cap?

Where mule deer harvest stats are always 100% , because of the archery only concept!

That doesn't skew facts and numbers

How much does 3 , 100% 's increase the average?

Dr .D , said for sure in the meeting that 212 was included in the survey!

Creative accounting?

[Lefty-Canuck]

Originally Posted by Rob Miskosky

The questions are very straight forward, and they ask which weapon did you use.

The survey questions themselves are not the issue.

The quality and quantity of the data is......if only 5 respondants reply to a survey in a specific zone and 2 happen to be archers but there were 50 rifle draw tags available.....what does that do to your stats?

If the survey was mandatory like many have suggested it would give a better feeling of what is really going on.....then they could make better informed decisions.

If in the end the archers are taking more than their share....so be it. If they aren't then so be that too

LC

[C Taylor]

I havn't done the online thing yet. so your saying they don't ask if you bowhunted on a draw? If you get your deer with a bow when drawn for rifle, which slot are they putting you in?

Originally Posted by C Taylor

I was with the understanding that it was clubs like aba and F&G that voted against crossbows. not just a voluntary survey. didn't know the survey was so powerful.
I find it strange how the stats change since it has gone from phone calls to being online. I believe what could be throwing the stats out of wack would be the hunters that get drawn for rifle but go hunting with a bow first. then the online survey would show a bowhunter that got his deer, not mentioning that it was with a rifle in november. Great thing about stats is if you ask the right questions you can get what ever answer you want.

SRD decided the fate of crossbows solely on the results of the on-line survey.

[Lefty-Canuck]

Originally Posted by sheephunter

SRD decided the fate of crossbows solely on the results of the on-line survey.

Add me to the list of guys who had no idea the online survey results were the only criteria used to make that decision.

That survey is different than a harvest survey though. One is based on an individuals opinion the other is based on measurable fact.

LC

Originally Posted by pottymouth

Let me guess, Srd is including the numbers from the 3 bow zones in there 15% cap?

Where mule deer harvest stats are always 100% , because of the archery only concept!

That doesn't skew facts and numbers

Ya, I heard that 212 is going on draw in 2013 so rifle hunters get their share too.

Come on Potty, do you even read what you post. This is a WMU by WMU thing. They are comparing the harvest of rifle hunters vs bow hunters in specific WMUs, not province wide. As there are no rifle hunter of antlered mule deer in 212, it kind of stands to reason it won't be one of the WMUs affected and even if they did include those results it would only apply to 212 and not skew anything........

Originally Posted by Lefty-Canuck

Add me to the list of guys who had no idea the online survey results were the only criteria used to make that decision.

That survey is different than a harvest survey though. One is based on an individuals opinion the other is based on measurable fact.

LC

Ya but they target....and miss, the same people. Isn't that the criticism being levelled at the survey? I'm sure several rifle hunters weren't survey in regards to crossbows. So by the definition of many in this thread.....the vote was flawed and is useless.

[Lefty-Canuck]

Originally Posted by whitetail Junkie

Just kind of curious as to what everyone's thoughts are on the fact that this will be the last year of being able to buy a general Mule buck Tag in Alberta For Archery purposes?

Eitherway enjoy the General 2012 mulebuck season,because it's going to be the last!

I don't want to speak for Potty but above in post #1 the OP of this thread states the entire province is going on draw for Mule bucks....

So SRD must have determined somehow that every zone in the province hit the magic number...

LC

Originally Posted by Lefty-Canuck

I don't want to speak for Potty but above in post #1 the OP of this thread states the entire province is going on draw for Mule bucks....

So SRD must have determined somehow that every zone in the province hit the magic number...

LC

The wording in the proposal was that "many" WMUs are above 15% based on data collected begining in 2003. So no, ESRD has not determined that .

[Lefty-Canuck]

Originally Posted by sheephunter

Ya but they target....and miss, the same people. Isn't that the criticism being levelled at the survey? I'm sure several rifle hunters weren't survey in regards to crossbows. So by the definition of many in this thread.....the vote was flawed and is useless.

Nice try but not quite...

A vote is fundamentally different than a survey....I would hope that you know that.

A rifle hunter could feel a X-bow should not be used during an archery season.

An archery hunter could feel a X-bow should be used during an archery season.

That is part of a vote based on a feeling or opinion.....not part of a survey based on factual results (Did you kill something? YES/NO.....What did you use? bow/rifle)

It is not an apples and apples comparison. A vote is an opinion, a survey collects factual data.

An opinion is not a fact.

LC

Originally Posted by Lefty-Canuck

Nice try but not quite...

A vote is fundamentally different than a survey....I would hope that you know that.

A rifle hunter could feel a X-bow should not be used during an archery season.

An archery hunter could feel a X-bow should be used during an archery season.

That is part of a vote based on a feeling or opinion.....not part of a survey based on factual results (Did you kill something? YES/NO.....What did you use? bow/rifle)

LC

If you reread what I posted you'll see I never commented on anything you posted above. I said not all hunters were surveyed nor given an opportunity to vote so by the definition of many in this thread, the vote was flawed. It never took into account the opinion of all hunters because they were excluded from the vote.

[Lefty-Canuck]

Originally Posted by sheephunter

If you reread what I posted you'll see I never commented on anything you posted above. I said not all hunters were surveyed nor given an opportunity to vote so by the definition of many inb this thread, the vote was flawed. It never took into account the opinion of all hunters.

If the sample size was representative of the population then it would serve to be statistically valid.

If the sample size in relation to the population was not representive (ie. not enough respondants) then yes it should have been tossed out as a valid vote response.

BUT it was not and I don't feel SRD would toss the vote out if they felt they didn't get enough response......heck we decide the fate of this province and country with less than 50% of the population voting.

My point is no one could questions the validity of the vote taken off a survey question......because it is opinion and not factually based.

A survey by which there is factual information given and recorded....which is not statistically valid can be brought into question.

LC

[KCL]

Originally Posted by Lefty-Canuck

I don't want to speak for Potty but above in post #1 the OP of this thread states the entire province is going on draw for Mule bucks....

So SRD must have determined somehow that every zone in the province hit the magic number...

LC

If they do some I hope they do all in an area. Otherwise the WMU not on draw could get some serious pressure

Originally Posted by Lefty-Canuck

If the sample size was representative of the population then it would serve to be statistically valid.

If the sample size in relation to the population was not representive (ie. not enough respondants) then yes it should have been tossed out as a valid vote response.

LC

On that we can agree....thanks for reading what I posted this time.

I guess is the sample of harvest surveys begining in 2003 to 2010 a representative sample. That's a lot of data...representative some might say.

[Lefty-Canuck]

Originally Posted by sheephunter

On that we can agree....thanks for reading what I posted this time.

I guess is the sample of harvest surveys begining in 2003 to 2010 a representative sample. That's a lot of data...representative some might say.

Do you know for fact this decision is based on 7 years of data?

LC