How Many Foot Pounds for Antelope?"

[Double Dropper]

Thoughts on this?? Most recommend 1000-1200 for white tail and Mule deer but what about antelope?

[Scott N]

Pronghorn are pretty easy to put down, light skinned and boned, so I'd use the same criteria as deer. I'm not really a big believer in the whole "minimum foot pounds of energy" line of thought though.

[Dean2]

Originally Posted by Double Dropper

Thoughts on this?? Most recommend 1000-1200 for white tail and Mule deer but what about antelope?

Any legal cartridge will kill antelope just fine. Muzzle Energy was a fad, it has been long proven to be irrelevant to the killing power of a bullet. If ME had any effect nothing would have ever died from being shot with a round ball ( a 50 caliber round ball only has about 850 FT/LB at the muzzle, by the time it gets to 75 yards it is down to 300. Considering it has a very low ME, there sure were a lot of things killed with them). Same hold true for arrows, spears, swords. A 200 grain FMJ bullet has far more ME than a 130 grain expanding bullet shot at the same velocity yet the expanding bullet usually kills faster. The size of the hole, rate of bleed and damage to vital organs is what kills not the ME.

[Flight01]

I always liked having minimum of 1000ft/lbs at times of impact.
But as stated that’s not all that’s required for a clean kill.
If I was going for antelope I’d bring my 270 and 140 grain ballistic tips. Just because that’s what I have.
If I were wanting a specific antelope set up I’d run a 25-06 with 115 ballistic tips
Or Hornady 117 sst: Muzzle 2510ft/on and 500yards 1020ft/lb
Providing they were accurate of course.

[elkhunter11]

Any cartridge that will kill deer, is more than enough for pronghorn. I have killed a few with the 257wby, and a couple with the 7mmstw. Three were at under 200 yards, one at 300, and one at 480 yards.

[Pioneer2]

Is an old wives tale.Punch a lung ........watch e'm run and fall over.

[Dick284]

Interesting to note that quite a few of the good old standby cartridges have a magic 1000 ft lbs, and 1800 FPS lining up damned close to each other.

For those taking notes most conventionally constructed lead/copper bullets have a 1800FPS reliable expansion threshold..........

Interesting.........

[Flight01]

Originally Posted by Dick284

Interesting to note that quite a few of the good old standby cartridges have a magic 1000 ft lbs, and 1800 FPS lining up damned close to each other.

For those taking notes most conventionally constructed lead/copper bullets have a 1800FPS reliable expansion threshold..........

Interesting.........

I know right?
We all like new and fancy, faster and flatter but truth be told...
Inside 250yards a lot of the old faithful cartridges and bullets will work just fine.
30-06 with 150 psp would be one Oldy but goody
270 psp corlokt 150 is another.
Even 250 savage with a 100 gr sp is a 250 yard antelope gun.

[waldedw]

Have taken 4 antelope over the years, first one was with my 280 and a 140gr nosler accubond, about 300 yards, next 2 were with the 270 win also a 140gr accubond between 250 and 325 yards, last one was just last fall 257 WM and 110 gr hornady ELDX, 327 yards, all bullets carried well over 1000 F# at those ranges and none of those antelope went more than about 25 yards, 2 hit the deck on the spot, they are not hard to knock down.

[Dick284]

Originally Posted by Flight01

I know right?
We all like new and fancy, faster and flatter but truth be told...
Inside 250yards a lot of the old faithful cartridges and bullets will work just fine.
30-06 with 150 psp would be one Oldy but goody
270 psp corlokt 150 is another.
Even 250 savage with a 100 gr sp is a 250 yard antelope gun.

I think you missed where I was heading with this.

The old 1000 ftlbs standard most likely came from that value coinciding with reliable expansion.

[Dean2]

Originally Posted by Dick284

I think you missed where I was heading with this.

The old 1000 ftlbs standard most likely came from that value coinciding with reliable expansion.

The reliable expansion velocity of cup and core bullets is really quite wide. A bullet made for a 38-55, 303 savage, 303 enfield, 7x57 or 30-30, 45-70 is designed to expand reliably down to 900- 1100 fps and many of the 30 cal for 308 and 06 will expand at 1200 fps. Most of the makers designed quite a bit tougher versions once the magnum craze hit, which also meant they had a much higher lower limit for expansion. That is why picking the right cup and core bullet is so important. Last thing you want is a bullet designed for a 30-30 velocity being fired out of a 300 win mag. Same is true of 45-70 bullets out of a 460 Bee. Bullet selection became a whole bunch easier with the Partition and then the mono bullets.

[colroggal]

Originally Posted by Dean2

The reliable expansion velocity of cup and core bullets is really quite wide. A bullet made for a 38-55, 303 savage, 303 enfield, 7x57 or 30-30, 45-70 is designed to expand reliably down to 900- 1100 fps and many of the 30 cal for 308 and 06 will expand at 1200 fps. Most of the makers designed quite a bit tougher versions once the magnum craze hit, which also meant they had a much higher lower limit for expansion. That is why picking the right cup and core bullet is so important. Last thing you want is a bullet designed for a 30-30 velocity being fired out of a 300 win mag. Same is true of 45-70 bullets out of a 460 Bee. Bullet selection became a whole bunch easier with the Partition and then the mono bullets.

This.

The goal isn't to bowl 'am over with a sledgehammer but to knock out the clockworks and put them down. A 147g fmj. 308 round fired from a .300 win mag carries well over 2000 fb of energy out past 500 yards, but probably won't put much down very quickly whereas a 155g hornady Amax shot from a .308 win will have less than 700 fb of energy at 700 yds, but will shred the vitals of a white tail.

Extreme examples to be sure, but the point is there is more to be said for bullet construction and intended purpose than calibre, muzzle velocity or weight.

Pick your tool. Know your tool. 'Nuff said.

Colin

Side note about the .257 115g Hornady SST - I swear Hornady had antelope and white tails out around 300 yards in mind for that bullet. In a 25-06 you're just about at the threshold for reliable expansion, according to the manufacturer. You gain about 75 yds with the Bee and lose about the same with the Bob.

There's an interesting article and video about annealing the .257 SST for longer ranges on the Terminal Ballistics Research website. Worth the time. When I had a quarter bore, the SST was my go-to bullet.

[colroggal]

Another comparison: Take a 180g Nosler Partition out our a .300 win mag at 400 yds and a 450g hard cast wide flat point out of a 45-70 at 100 yds. By the numbers, they both have the exact same impact energy and are both extremely devastating to soft tissue. But each bullet causes that destruction the exact same way using two completely different mechanisms.

The partition is designed to open and fold back on itself, creating a wide wound channel and drive deep with the bulk of its weight held in reserve by it's heavy rear shank. It sheds energy into the surrounding tissue, forcing uncompressable fluid out of its path like a sandstorm in a rice paper factory.

The hard cast solid does not expand. It resists expansion, but has the advantage of momentum, a different formula than muzzle energy and arguably more precise (dependant, of course, on bullet construction). That wide flat face of the bullet powers through tissue like a freight train, forcing those same non-compressable fluids out of its path.

The end result is the same. Catastrophic tissue damage. Pulped organs.

Two bullets of extremely different design with completely different operating parameters resulting in the same thing.

But in my previous post I mentioned the use of a Hornady Amax for long range hunting - more correctly I should have said low terminal velocity hunting. The Amax is a frangible target bullet not intended for hunting; it will break apart on impact. It has neither a hard cast solid construction or a reinforced bonded shank to drive it deep. But it will turn into shrapnel on impact. At high velocity that translates into bullet blow back - a shallow, lingering surface wound. But at low velocity, those fragments penetrate deeply and sread like a shotgun blast through the vitals.

Why? Those same non-compressable fluids that shred the guts with the last two stop the fragments - the fluids can't get out of the way fast enough and all energy is expanded very quickly in the attempt. But slow the fragments down and they slip through like a hundred broad head arrows, cutting and slicing, making a hundred little fast bleeding wound channels.

All comes down to different tools

Colin

[6.5 shooter]

.243 (6mm) with around a 100gr. bullet or any caliber /cartridge above that is more then enough...Wind is the big thing then distance...

[Dean2]

Originally Posted by colroggal

Another comparison: Take a 180g Nosler Partition out our a .300 win mag at 400 yds and a 450g hard cast wide flat point out of a 45-70 at 100 yds. By the numbers, they both have the exact same impact energy and are both extremely devastating to soft tissue. But each bullet causes that destruction the exact same way using two completely different mechanisms.

The partition is designed to open and fold back on itself, creating a wide wound channel and drive deep with the bulk of its weight held in reserve by it's heavy rear shank. It sheds energy into the surrounding tissue, forcing uncompressable fluid out of its path like a sandstorm in a rice paper factory.

The hard cast solid does not expand. It resists expansion, but has the advantage of momentum, a different formula than muzzle energy and arguably more precise (dependant, of course, on bullet construction). That wide flat face of the bullet powers through tissue like a freight train, forcing those same non-compressable fluids out of its path.

The end result is the same. Catastrophic tissue damage. Pulped organs.

Two bullets of extremely different design with completely different operating parameters resulting in the same thing.

But in my previous post I mentioned the use of a Hornady Amax for long range hunting - more correctly I should have said low terminal velocity hunting. The Amax is a frangible target bullet not intended for hunting; it will break apart on impact. It has neither a hard cast solid construction or a reinforced bonded shank to drive it deep. But it will turn into shrapnel on impact. At high velocity that translates into bullet blow back - a shallow, lingering surface wound. But at low velocity, those fragments penetrate deeply and sread like a shotgun blast through the vitals.

Why? Those same non-compressable fluids that shred the guts with the last two stop the fragments - the fluids can't get out of the way fast enough and all energy is expanded very quickly in the attempt. But slow the fragments down and they slip through like a hundred broad head arrows, cutting and slicing, making a hundred little fast bleeding wound channels.

All comes down to different tools

Colin

That truly is a really well written, simple and layman friendly explanation of the dynamics of different bullet construction and how they each create the hole that kills. Very well done.

[colroggal]

Originally Posted by Dean2

That truly is a really well written, simple and layman friendly explanation of the dynamics of different bullet construction and how they each create the hole that kills. Very well done.

Thanks Dean. Mostly just me trying to justify using my 1895 for everything from gophers to Moose.

Btw, 405g soft cast vs gopher - you don't need to be precise. Anywhere within a few feet infront of em does it. High speed dirt.

Colin.

[Who Da Fisherman]

Originally Posted by 6.5 shooter

.243 (6mm) with around a 100gr. bullet or any caliber /cartridge above that is more then enough...Wind is the big thing then distance...

Federal 100gr BTSP works quite well for me

[fps plus]

2 foot pounds — pound the prairies with lots of walking and practice shooting to distances you are comfortable . Antelope are not big animals .

[marky_mark]

Of the 8 or 9 I’ve shot (only 1 in Alberta)
I’ve put some big holes in them and have found that they have a strong will to live. Some have folded on the spot. Some have made me scratch my head and wonder how did you move with no lungs 🤷*♂️
On the bright side, it’s the prairies and they can’t really hide

[spoiledsaskhunter]

Originally Posted by 6.5 shooter

.243 (6mm) with around a 100gr. bullet or any caliber /cartridge above that is more then enough...Wind is the big thing then distance...

this...........you don't need a canon

[58thecat]

Originally Posted by spoiledsaskhunter

this...........you don't need a canon

use what ever legally can make a hole in and preverbally out too...some just over think this too much....flats...wind...distance...know this then adjust accordingly.

[Double Dropper]

I love these posts with the "make sure you can shoot" or "put the time in getting to know the area", any caliber will do as long as you stay within the limitations or use the correct bullet, soooooo helpful. Couple of no-brainers come to mind;
1. AS the antelope are lightly constructed animals anyone would be using a relatively soft bullet,(SST, Ballistic Tips etc) as opposed to a SWIFT A-Frame.
2. Sure any gun with an adequate loading will kill, some better than others.
3. Energy is subjective and not a defining factor in how well a bullet and associated caliber will down game, SD, expansion, shot placement come into play......respectfully that is a given and no reiterations are required thanks.
4. Practice out to the expected range you plan to shoot....DUH!
5. Nobody can just answer the question, (well most of you LOL) nor apparently read what is being requested.
6. When a question is asked.....this page always treats people like idiots, its truly disrespectful. Talking down to people and assuming their level of experience and hunting background....... if you dont know ask.

[Nyksta]

Originally Posted by Double Dropper

I love these posts with the "make sure you can shoot" or "put the time in getting to know the area", any caliber will do as long as you stay within the limitations or use the correct bullet, soooooo helpful. Couple of no-brainers come to mind;
1. AS the antelope are lightly constructed animals anyone would be using a relatively soft bullet,(SST, Ballistic Tips etc) as opposed to a SWIFT A-Frame.
2. Sure any gun with an adequate loading will kill, some better than others.
3. Energy is subjective and not a defining factor in how well a bullet and associated caliber will down game, SD, expansion, shot placement come into play......respectfully that is a given and no reiterations are required thanks.
4. Practice out to the expected range you plan to shoot....DUH!
5. Nobody can just answer the question, (well most of you LOL) nor apparently read what is being requested.
6. When a question is asked.....this page always treats people like idiots, its truly disrespectful. Talking down to people and assuming their level of experience and hunting background....... if you dont know ask.

sometimes the 'answer' to the question asked isnt a simple quantitative answer. a description of the factors involved is the best answer.


http://www.outdoorsmenforum.ca/showthread.php?t=360115

That thread is another example of how different experiences from different people using different hunting tools, all have opinions on how inconsistent the 'energy number required to kill' idea is.

[elkhunter11]

Originally Posted by Double Dropper

I love these posts with the "make sure you can shoot" or "put the time in getting to know the area", any caliber will do as long as you stay within the limitations or use the correct bullet, soooooo helpful. Couple of no-brainers come to mind;
1. AS the antelope are lightly constructed animals anyone would be using a relatively soft bullet,(SST, Ballistic Tips etc) as opposed to a SWIFT A-Frame.
2. Sure any gun with an adequate loading will kill, some better than others.
3. Energy is subjective and not a defining factor in how well a bullet and associated caliber will down game, SD, expansion, shot placement come into play......respectfully that is a given and no reiterations are required thanks.
4. Practice out to the expected range you plan to shoot....DUH!
5. Nobody can just answer the question, (well most of you LOL) nor apparently read what is being requested.
6. When a question is asked.....this page always treats people like idiots, its truly disrespectful. Talking down to people and assuming their level of experience and hunting background....... if you dont know ask.

I actually used a TTSX for my last two pronghorns, as that is what I load for my 7mmstw. Both bucks folded at the shot.

[Dean2]

Originally Posted by Double Dropper

I love these posts with the "make sure you can shoot" or "put the time in getting to know the area", any caliber will do as long as you stay within the limitations or use the correct bullet, soooooo helpful. Couple of no-brainers come to mind;
1. AS the antelope are lightly constructed animals anyone would be using a relatively soft bullet,(SST, Ballistic Tips etc) as opposed to a SWIFT A-Frame.
2. Sure any gun with an adequate loading will kill, some better than others.
3. Energy is subjective and not a defining factor in how well a bullet and associated caliber will down game, SD, expansion, shot placement come into play......respectfully that is a given and no reiterations are required thanks.
4. Practice out to the expected range you plan to shoot....DUH!
5. Nobody can just answer the question, (well most of you LOL) nor apparently read what is being requested.
6. When a question is asked.....this page always treats people like idiots, its truly disrespectful. Talking down to people and assuming their level of experience and hunting background....... if you dont know ask.

The OP asked how many foot pounds for Antelope. Since Muzzle Energy is irrelevant to a bullets ability to kill how would you have us answer the "Question asked". I actually thought we had done a pretty good job of trying to help educate the OP on the considerations of what bullets to use. There were even specific cartridge and bullet recommendations that have worked for otehrs in the past. If you disagree with what we said fine, but we were NOT being disrespectful.

[Nyksta]

Originally Posted by Dean2

The OP asked how many foot pounds for Antelope. Since Muzzle Energy is irrelevant to a bullets ability to kill how would you have us answer the "Question asked". I actually thought we had done a pretty good job of trying to help educate the OP on the considerations of what bullets to use. There were even specific cartridge and bullet recommendations that have worked for otehrs in the past. If you disagree with what we said fine, but we were NOT being disrespectful.

Double Dropper is the OP.

[Dean2]

Originally Posted by Nyksta

Double Dropper is the OP.

I know, I was trying not to make to fine a point of that. I was politely trying to tell him to ask better questions that demonstrate he has some level of expertise rather than take offense when we don't answer a question that isn't really germane. If we had been being disrespectful we would have not replied at all, or called him names, not genuinely tried to help. I get a little peed off with posters who ask for advice then tell us we are disrespectful Dbags because we can't read their minds and don't know their detailed experience and background..

[Big Lou]

Originally Posted by Double Dropper

I love these posts with the "make sure you can shoot" or "put the time in getting to know the area", any caliber will do as long as you stay within the limitations or use the correct bullet, soooooo helpful. Couple of no-brainers come to mind;
1. AS the antelope are lightly constructed animals anyone would be using a relatively soft bullet,(SST, Ballistic Tips etc) as opposed to a SWIFT A-Frame.
2. Sure any gun with an adequate loading will kill, some better than others.
3. Energy is subjective and not a defining factor in how well a bullet and associated caliber will down game, SD, expansion, shot placement come into play......respectfully that is a given and no reiterations are required thanks.
4. Practice out to the expected range you plan to shoot....DUH!
5. Nobody can just answer the question, (well most of you LOL) nor apparently read what is being requested.
6. When a question is asked.....this page always treats people like idiots, its truly disrespectful. Talking down to people and assuming their level of experience and hunting background....... if you dont know ask.

While I don’t subscribe to the energy required line of thinking, I will provide you with the specific data in regards to the two antelope I’ve seen go down in line with what you’ve requested. First was a .257 Wby launching a 115gr Berger VLD. Impact was at 365 yards. Velocity was 2300fps and 1350ft/lb energy. I considered my max on that load at around the 600 yard mark and energy would be 876 ft/lbs.

Second one was a 7mm Rem launching a 168gr Berger VLD. Impact at 650 yards. I’m not sure what he is running but conservatively 1927 FPS and 1429 ft/lb energy. We were confident out to 850 with that combo and energy at that distance again, conservatively would have been 1062ft/lb.

Limited data set I know but it’s all I can offer as to numbers I’ve witnessed deliver on antelope. For what it’s worth, both dropped like toilet seats. Not exactly the answer you’re looking for but it’s the best first hand info I can provide if energy is your baby.

[Double Dropper]

Originally Posted by Dean2

I know, I was trying not to make to fine a point of that. I was politely trying to tell him to ask better questions that demonstrate he has some level of expertise rather than take offense when we don't answer a question that isn't really germane. If we had been being disrespectful we would have not replied at all, or called him names, not genuinely tried to help. I get a little peed off with posters who ask for advice then tell us we are disrespectful Dbags because we can't read their minds and don't know their detailed experience and background..

Than don't assume, that was my whole point, "ask better questions??" based upon whos understanding of the subject matter? Never called you a Dbag sunshine, WOW what a drama queen! I asked a question...pretty simple, if you dont think you are either qualified to answer, don't like the reference material ie: the use of foot pounds of energy, then don't answer. No response is much better than responding with an answer like above, you were directly rude with the comment "I was politely trying to tell him to ask better questions that demonstrate he has some level of expertise" that is a total Dbag comment. If you were trying to help you failed miserably.

[Double Dropper]

Originally Posted by Big Lou

While I don’t subscribe to the energy required line of thinking, I will provide you with the specific data in regards to the two antelope I’ve seen go down in line with what you’ve requested. First was a .257 Wby launching a 115gr Berger VLD. Impact was at 365 yards. Velocity was 2300fps and 1350ft/lb energy. I considered my max on that load at around the 600 yard mark and energy would be 876 ft/lbs.

Second one was a 7mm Rem launching a 168gr Berger VLD. Impact at 650 yards. I’m not sure what he is running but conservatively 1927 FPS and 1429 ft/lb energy. We were confident out to 850 with that combo and energy at that distance again, conservatively would have been 1062ft/lb.

Limited data set I know but it’s all I can offer as to numbers I’ve witnessed deliver on antelope. For what it’s worth, both dropped like toilet seats. Not exactly the answer you’re looking for but it’s the best first hand info I can provide if energy is your baby.

Cool, your response is helpful. Thank you.