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  #241  
Old 03-07-2017, 09:10 PM
Kurt505 Kurt505 is offline
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Originally Posted by waterninja View Post
I still don't see what you guys are on me about. Kurt posted he can't buy an archery Moose tag. I bought one last year over the counter, just like the years before, without needing a draw. Are you saying that this is not true?
In my zone, and many others, they offer moose tags, both General and archery to non-resident aliens, but it's a 5-7 year wait for me to even get an archery tag. I took it for granted everyone knew this.
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  #242  
Old 03-07-2017, 09:12 PM
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Originally Posted by kurt505 View Post
wholly smokes!!!

I am literally laughing out loud at some of the comments on this thread myself.


Clueless and the need for tinfoil hats come to mind.

Seriously, some folks have absolutely no clue how the world turns, let alone how outfitting in alberta works.

Count me in on being upset that i can't buy an archery moose tag, yet the government is selling moose hunts to americans. Its the government who is in charge of our fish and wildlife, along with all our other resources.

What are the animals everyone is worried about? Sheep? Pronghorn? Mule deer? Moose? Elk? Whitetail? Bear? How many of these animals are actually harvested per year? Can one of the people who are all bent out of shape post the actual numbers of how many of these animals are actually harvested every year so we can see why you feel so threatened?

The total number of animal that were harvested by non-resident aliens in alberta during the 2012 season is around 1800, and i would guess, and this is only a guess, that 75-80% of those animals were whitetail and bear. A little over 6000 allocations available in alberta, about a 25-30% success rate (obviously not hunting with me!), that is about 4% of the total harvest per year in alberta. This means 94% of the animals harvested are from albertans, the other 2% would be non-resident canadians.


Seriously, 1800 animals for a $40,000,000/year ($22,220 per animal) industry? Granted it's only an estimate on the revenue generated from outfitted hunts, but i bet it's damn accurate!

Remember, just because a hunt is sold, doesn't mean they kill an animal. Any trophy hunter knows that if you're after a trophy the success rate goes down.
x5 on that kurt
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  #243  
Old 03-07-2017, 09:17 PM
crazy_davey crazy_davey is offline
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It's far from the first time, and I doubt that it will be the last, but at least it provides some entertainment.
I know. It's just amazing how clueless he can be at times...
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  #244  
Old 03-07-2017, 09:20 PM
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Originally Posted by Kurt505 View Post
In my zone, and many others, they offer moose tags, both General and archery to non-resident aliens, but it's a 5-7 year wait for me to even get an archery tag. I took it for granted everyone knew this.
Oh, now we are talking about a specific zone? Thanks for clearing that up. Doesn't change the fact that you can still buy an archery Moose tag without needing a draw.
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  #245  
Old 03-07-2017, 09:21 PM
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Oh, now we are talking about a specific zone? Thanks for clearing that up. Doesn't change the fact that you can still buy an archery Moose tag without needing a draw.
Ok


And I can kill a moose every year so long as I don't get caught.....
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  #246  
Old 03-07-2017, 09:22 PM
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I own a BC corporation that I run the outfit through. I pay corporate tax and gst in British Columbia. I employ guides from BC and Alberta as well as my cook from BC.
I buy groceries in BC, insurance, fuel, parts, equipment and lumber for cabins. My clients fly on Central Mountain Air and when required stay in BC hotels.

My taxidermist/shipping agent is in BC also

I also buy some equipment from Alberta, and use a charter company that does my flying out of the Yukon.

Federal tax, well that's all of us

So although not all money stays in BC, a good chunk of it does. Either way it's all coming from elsewhere and 99% is staying in the western Canadian economy
IT'S your living and most could not even tow that line,they would all want to do what you do, but don't have it inside them ,but wishing and doing it is 2 different deals.The population is growing faster in Canada by the hour,be thankful for what is around,because in five years lots can happen
in the hands of the government who make the rules,wish the best to all.
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  #247  
Old 03-07-2017, 09:49 PM
Kurt505 Kurt505 is offline
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A lot of talking in circles and blaming someone else.
Chuck, what species specifically has you bent out of shape? There seems to be a broad stroke of the brush over a minor detail of the the industry that has you upset. Obviously the whole system isn't broken, and like every other facet of the fish and wildlife in Alberta there is room for improvement.

I plan on being an outfitter in Alberta, and I plan on running a successful operation with both the support of the community and my clients.

Nothing is going to change about the fact that there is an outfitter in my zone, but hopefully we can all live happily together and input from residents is more than welcome. I've made it a point never to step on toes.
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  #248  
Old 03-07-2017, 10:23 PM
elkhunter11 elkhunter11 is offline
 
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Chuck, what species specifically has you bent out of shape? There seems to be a broad stroke of the brush over a minor detail of the the industry that has you upset. Obviously the whole system isn't broken, and like every other facet of the fish and wildlife in Alberta there is room for improvement.

I plan on being an outfitter in Alberta, and I plan on running a successful operation with both the support of the community and my clients.

Nothing is going to change about the fact that there is an outfitter in my zone, but hopefully we can all live happily together and input from residents is more than welcome. I've made it a point never to step on toes.
The biggest problem with the industry is APOS. When the organization that represents the industry allows comvicted poachers and convicted criminals to keep their allocations , and to continue to outfit after multiple convictions, that is far more than a minor detail. People that have been convicted of multiple violations have proven that they don't care about the regulations, the game populations, or the integrity of the industry itself, so they should have zero input as to how the industry is being run. And when APOS elects people that have been convicted of violations, to their executive, how can you expect the public to trust APOS, or the industry that they represent? If the industry expects the public to put any trust in them, they need to clean house, and start fresh, but they don't appear to be interested in doing that.
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  #249  
Old 03-07-2017, 10:27 PM
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So would like the non residents to go in the regular draw or would you still like the non residents to be separate ?

I'm guessing you realize whether an outfitter sells four mule deer hunts through our allocation process or the non residents draw 4 mule deee tags then book, there's still 4 non residents hunting right ?
The non-resident Canadian draw system seems to work. Non resident draw
systems work in other jurisdictions such as New Mexico elk hunting or Wyoming pronghorn hunting. The outfitters wouldn't have all of their cash tied up in allocations which may prove to be worth 25% of what they were ten years ago (like the whitetail tags around my place). If a population crashes (antelope a few years ago, Peace Country winter kill of mule deer in ~2008, CWD cull, moose getting exterminated by subsistence hunters) then SRD simply cuts back the resident, non-resident, and non-resident alien tags back by the same ratio without having to consult or compensate one specific group. I can't think of one reason, other than keeping APOS afloat, why the current system is better than a draw system for non residents and non resident aliens. I'd even be okay with the NR's and the NRA's going in the same draw pool. Good outfitters would rise to the top when all they have to offer a potential client is great service and a great hunt.
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  #250  
Old 03-07-2017, 10:37 PM
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Originally Posted by NCC View Post
The non-resident Canadian draw system seems to work. Non resident draw
systems work in other jurisdictions such as New Mexico elk hunting or Wyoming pronghorn hunting. The outfitters wouldn't have all of their cash tied up in allocations which may prove to be worth 25% of what they were ten years ago (like the whitetail tags around my place). If a population crashes (antelope a few years ago, Peace Country winter kill of mule deer in ~2008, CWD cull, moose getting exterminated by subsistence hunters) then SRD simply cuts back the resident, non-resident, and non-resident alien tags back by the same ratio without having to consult or compensate one specific group. I can't think of one reason, other than keeping APOS afloat, why the current system is better than a draw system for non residents and non resident aliens. I'd even be okay with the NR's and the NRA's going in the same draw pool. Good outfitters would rise to the top when all they have to offer a potential client is great service and a great hunt.

Could not have said it better!! Spot on!
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  #251  
Old 03-07-2017, 10:42 PM
Kurt505 Kurt505 is offline
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Originally Posted by elkhunter11 View Post
The biggest problem with the industry is APOS. When the organization that represents the industry allows comvicted poachers and convicted criminals to keep their allocations , and to continue to outfit after multiple convictions, that is far more than a minor detail. People that have been convicted of multiple violations have proven that they don't care about the regulations, the game populations, or the integrity of the industry itself, so they should have zero input as to how the industry is being run. And when APOS elects people that have been convicted of violations, to their executive, how can you expect the public to trust APOS, or the industry that they represent? If the industry expects the public to put any trust in them, they need to clean house, and start fresh, but they don't appear to be interested in doing that.
The thing is, like nube pointed out, APOS doesn't necessarily allow convicts to operate, but like any other system there are ways around things. Trust me when I say most outfitters hate that guy as much as you do, as I'm sure the people at APOS do, however like the legal system they are bound by the rules.

Honest contractors hate the dirt bag contractors because they give them a bad name and make it hard for them to be trusted, and outfitting is just the same, I know because I do both.

I know you have a hate on for APOS, but on a lot of issues they have their hands tied, even in who they have running the show.

Like I said, there are bigger problems in the system then outfitters, at least they have regulations.
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  #252  
Old 03-07-2017, 10:49 PM
elkhunter11 elkhunter11 is offline
 
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Originally Posted by Kurt505 View Post
The thing is, like nube pointed out, APOS doesn't necessarily allow convicts to operate, but like any other system there are ways around things. Trust me when I say most outfitters hate that guy as much as you do, as I'm sure the people at APOS do, however like the legal system they are bound by the rules.

Honest contractors hate the dirt bag contractors because they give them a bad name and make it hard for them to be trusted, and outfitting is just the same, I know because I do both.

I know you have a hate on for APOS, but on a lot of issues they have their hands tied, even in who they have running the show.

Like I said, there are bigger problems in the system then outfitters, at least they have regulations.
It's not just that one guy, but he is the best proof as to just how messed up APOS is. Many outfitters have been convicted of violations, and I have yet to see one instance where their allocations were revoked, and they were tossed out of APOS. In fact Glen Brown was allowed to remain president after being convicted of multiple charges. As to the regulations, if APOS refuses to discipline their members that are convicted of violations, there is no point in having regulations.
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  #253  
Old 03-07-2017, 11:02 PM
Kurt505 Kurt505 is offline
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Isn't regulating allocations the same as a draw system? Sure the same guy can buy a tag year after year, but only if that tag is available. It's not like any American can buy a tag, there are only so many tags available and then their gone.

Think about this, when a guy spends around $6500us to come up here hunting he is after a trophy. He's not going to purposely shoot next years up and comer, he's after mac daddy. Educated guides will give them a guideline as to what they're looking for in regards to what constitutes a trophy. Trophy animals are smart and not readily available, not something you find behind every tree!

How many of you guys have killed a 160" whitetail? When guys come up hunting whitetail that's the caliber of deer they're for. A good guide will help them in judging what a 160" whitetail looks like and help them pass on the little guys. In all honesty most guys (not all) that kill big deer do it by luck, and with non resident hunters the luck factor is much lower because they only have 5-10 days to make it happen. There is way more fear about what non residents kill than what they actually kill, and in all honesty, most of the animals they kill would have died a natural death anyway.
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  #254  
Old 03-07-2017, 11:06 PM
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Originally Posted by Kurt505 View Post
Isn't regulating allocations the same as a draw system? Sure the same guy can buy a tag year after year, but only if that tag is available. It's not like any American can buy a tag, there are only so many tags available and then their gone.

Think about this, when a guy spends around $6500us to come up here hunting he is after a trophy. He's not going to purposely shoot next years up and comer, he's after mac daddy. Educated guides will give them a guideline as to what they're looking for in regards to what constitutes a trophy. Trophy animals are smart and not readily available, not something you find behind every tree!

How many of you guys have killed a 160" whitetail? When guys come up hunting whitetail that's the caliber of deer they're for. A good guide will help them in judging what a 160" whitetail looks like and help them pass on the little guys. In all honesty most guys (not all) that kill big deer do it by luck, and with non resident hunters the luck factor is much lower because they only have 5-10 days to make it happen. There is way more fear about what non residents kill than what they actually kill, and in all honesty, most of the animals they kill would have died a natural death anyway.
I beg to differ on one point, a guy who pays good money for a moose hunt is going home with a moose if he can....up and comer or not he is filling a freezer if possible, and I don't blame him for that one bit.

LC
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  #255  
Old 03-07-2017, 11:10 PM
Kurt505 Kurt505 is offline
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It's not just that one guy, but he is the best proof as to just how messed up APOS is. Many outfitters have been convicted of violations, and I have yet to see one instance where their allocations were revoked, and they were tossed out of APOS. In fact Glen Brown was allowed to remain president after being convicted of multiple charges. As to the regulations, if APOS refuses to discipline their members that are convicted of violations, there is no point in having regulations.
You're upset with APOS, but I truly beleive it's the lack of caring on the governments part that is responsible for this to happen. It's just like dead beat parents letting their kids run wild. APOS is the little brat kid and Notley (now) is the dead beat parent who has other things to worry about and couldn't be bothered with it.

Honest, reputable outfitters should be supported because they are the ones who will be able to make the difference.
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  #256  
Old 03-07-2017, 11:11 PM
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No, not everything he posted was wrong. I specifically remember you admitting to using the wrong tag on a deer, and then you trying to justify the illegal act. I am thinking that there are other AO members that also remember that thread.
Yes I still have that pic, and even the Euro. When you shoot a mutant whitetail whosw tiny 2 inch goat horn is curled into his ear, and the longer mutant horn that grew along face which barely put him into Buck classification can't be seen, then you have a choice. Leave it in the bush or bring it in as an antlerless. I chose antlerless. I really hate to waste an animal. An honest mistake is one thing, but compounding it with another is worse. No one neede to know about "Curly" but I thought he was the perfect example of what can go wrong. As I recall, almost everyone said I did the right thing by not letting meat go to waste. If you felt I had done something wrong it was your duty to RAP me.
Oh I forgot. Your the fellow who claimed to have been shot by someone while hunting. Instead of calling RAP or even police, you were going to handle it yourself. Howd that work out? At first you knew exactly who it was, then you had to admit you were full of chit and didn't really see the culprit. Oh well, next time you get shot maybe youll do the proper legal thing, instead of playing Rambo.
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  #257  
Old 03-07-2017, 11:23 PM
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I beg to differ on one point, a guy who pays good money for a moose hunt is going home with a moose if he can....up and comer or not he is filling a freezer if possible, and I don't blame him for that one bit.

LC
Not always, and in most cases the contrary.


As hard as it is to admit it, I have had hunters go home empty handed when it comes to moose, especially the guys that fly up. The ones who drive up tend to be more trigger happy, and I don't blame them. I've had guys drive up from West Virginia and yes they did settle on a "one horned bull", but honestly they are the exception in my experience.

I'll be totally honest here, the last two years I have not been able to purchase a moose tag for my zone but because I guide for moose my freezer has been full. On the down side it's been full of 5+ year old moose, but when it's in a sheaperds pie you'd never know!
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  #258  
Old 03-08-2017, 05:45 AM
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This thread sure hit a y in the road and is following both paths, lol. It's entertaining to say the least.
No doubt.
So what wmu can you buy an archery moose tag? I hint 510 alot and am no longer able to buy an archery moose tag.
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  #259  
Old 03-08-2017, 06:50 AM
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No doubt.
So what wmu can you buy an archery moose tag? I hint 510 alot and am no longer able to buy an archery moose tag.
Pretty simple just look in the regs

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  #260  
Old 03-08-2017, 07:43 AM
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You're upset with APOS, but I truly beleive it's the lack of caring on the governments part that is responsible for this to happen. It's just like dead beat parents letting their kids run wild. APOS is the little brat kid and Notley (now) is the dead beat parent who has other things to worry about and couldn't be bothered with it.

Honest, reputable outfitters should be supported because they are the ones who will be able to make the difference.
Getting back on track. Apos is the governing body they should be made deal with the problem children. The provincial Gov ( no matter who is in) can't find their arse with both hands. Them mettling in the private sector is always bad.
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  #261  
Old 03-08-2017, 07:49 AM
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You're upset with APOS, but I truly beleive it's the lack of caring on the governments part that is responsible for this to happen. It's just like dead beat parents letting their kids run wild. APOS is the little brat kid and Notley (now) is the dead beat parent who has other things to worry about and couldn't be bothered with it.

Honest, reputable outfitters should be supported because they are the ones who will be able to make the difference.
When Glen Brown was convicted, was there not a vote to decide whether to allow him to remain as APOS president or not? Who participated in that vote? Was it not the APOS members that voted to allow a convicted offender to represent them? You can't blame the government for a decision that was made by the membership. How can you expect the public to trust an organization that votes to allow a convicted poacher to represent them?
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  #262  
Old 03-08-2017, 07:51 AM
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You had a third option, and that was to call F&W and explain the situation to them, and see if they would buy your excuse. At that point, that was your only legal option, but instead, you chose an illegal option to hide your illegal activity. But more importantly, you could have avoided the situation altogether, by properly identifying the deer before pulling the trigger. If you don't use binoculars, then you need to start using them. As to my getting shot by some idiot who got excited and didn't watch where he was shooting, even though I knew who was responsible, it could not be proven. As to resolving the situation , I did not see those people at any release site for the rest of the season, so it appears that I likely either frightened them into staying away, or they simply realized what they had done and decided not to take a chance on making another mistake. Either way, them staying away prevented them from shooting anyone else. As to calling RAP, that is what you should have done, instead of illegally tagging the deer that you posted about.


Whoa whoa whoa...... hold everything here.




You got shot???
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  #263  
Old 03-08-2017, 07:55 AM
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Originally Posted by NCC View Post
The non-resident Canadian draw system seems to work. Non resident draw
systems work in other jurisdictions such as New Mexico elk hunting or Wyoming pronghorn hunting. The outfitters wouldn't have all of their cash tied up in allocations which may prove to be worth 25% of what they were ten years ago (like the whitetail tags around my place). If a population crashes (antelope a few years ago, Peace Country winter kill of mule deer in ~2008, CWD cull, moose getting exterminated by subsistence hunters) then SRD simply cuts back the resident, non-resident, and non-resident alien tags back by the same ratio without having to consult or compensate one specific group. I can't think of one reason, other than keeping APOS afloat, why the current system is better than a draw system for non residents and non resident aliens. I'd even be okay with the NR's and the NRA's going in the same draw pool. Good outfitters would rise to the top when all they have to offer a potential client is great service and a great hunt.
The big thing about the US states you mentioned and many other states that have outfitters are there are landowners tags and Indian reservation tags available to them. This guarantees their business can continue to operate year after year, even if the people who draw the non resident tags decide not to hunt, or decide to bring in their own guide of choice.

So say we did that for mule deer in Alberta. 8 tags in one WMU are drawn by non resident hunters. 3 guys don't hunt because they didn't think they were going to get the tag, 2 guys know a buddy that will guide them and 3 guys book with the local outfitter. Now for farmland mule deer maybe the outfitters a farmer or rancher and says "well that sucks, down to 3 hunters this year"

But What about the moose outfitter that owns and maintains wall tents, quads, river boats, and all other equipment for conducting remote hunts ? What does he do when he loses half or 3/4 of his hunters ? Or splits them with 5 other guys like what's happening in Alaska ?

Or what about the sheep outfitter that runs 40 head of horses year round to conduct his hunts ? You think he's just going to keep doing it at a loss for the heck of it ?

Or are you saying the outfitters would have exclusive guiding rights to the specific WMUs ? And any non resident had to use the outfitter currently operating in that WMU ? If so, what's the difference from the way it is now, other then having the non resident draw a tag, instead of purchasing the tag ?
Like I said earlier, who cares if they draw 4 tags or buy 4 tags, there's still 4 tags out there now.
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Old 03-08-2017, 08:08 AM
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Whoa whoa whoa...... hold everything here.




You got shot???
Myself and my vehicle were struck by shot while loading my gear into the truck at a parking lot , at a pheasant release site. Luckily, the shooter was just far enough away, that the shot didn't break skin. I came over the hill to see three people , one walking towards me chasing a pheasant directly up the road towards the parking lot. Those three people were the only people in range that could have fired the shot, but none of us saw exactly who pulled the trigger, so I left my shotgun at the truck and walked over close enough to tell them that they had just shot into the parking lot that they had driven through through when they entered the release site. Realizing that without a witness to verify exactly who fired the shot, and given that nobody was injured, I decided not to call the RCMP. I told them that I was still deciding whether to call the RCMP, in the hopes that it would make them think about what they had done, so hopefully, they would think before shooting next time. That was during the first few days of the season, and I never saw them at any release site since, so it's quite possible, that they were afraid of running into me again.
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  #265  
Old 03-08-2017, 08:14 AM
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Actually, the topic is "how much is the average going rate for a whitetail allocation".

Elk11,

This thread has many streams, like all streams they have a headwater. APOS might be the manager but the government is the boss. APOS can say what they want but they have to answer to the government.

I don't know the inner workings of APOS but in the end the ultimate power lays in the hands of our government.
The fact remains, that APOS chooses it's own president, and they choose who they allow to become a member of their organization, and who they allow to remain a member of their organization. As to not knowing about the inner workings of APOS, shouldn't you as a member who depends on income from the industry know how the organization that represents you operates? If I had significant money invested in the industry, I would make it a point to find out how APOS works.
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  #266  
Old 03-08-2017, 10:48 AM
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The thread is cleaned up
no more mud slinging, keep it on track please.
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  #267  
Old 03-08-2017, 10:51 AM
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Thanks admin. Hate to see a thread like this go down the tubes when one guy takes it too far and the rest have to suffer.

APOS needs to either be tossed, or have a major reworking.
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  #268  
Old 03-08-2017, 10:58 AM
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Thanks mods. We appreciate it
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  #269  
Old 03-08-2017, 10:59 AM
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Torkdiesel Torkdiesel is offline
 
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Location: North of the Kakwa
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Originally Posted by DiabeticKripple View Post

APOS needs to either be tossed, or have a major reworking.
I agree some things should be changed for sure. Nobody wants the bad apples out there, including us Outfitters
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  #270  
Old 03-08-2017, 11:04 AM
elkhunter11 elkhunter11 is offline
 
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Originally Posted by DiabeticKripple View Post
Thanks admin. Hate to see a thread like this go down the tubes when one guy takes it too far and the rest have to suffer.

APOS needs to either be tossed, or have a major reworking.
Great job by the admin, as the discussion has been good. I have written several letters to both the previous and present government regimes concerning both the allocation system, and the fact that convicted outfitters do not have their allocations revoked, and are still allowed to outfit. In every instance , the response has been the same, that been that the government will not involve themselves in these matters, they leave all disciplinary actions to APOS. But given that even the APOS president has been convicted of offences; why would anyone expect APOS to discopline it's members for being convicted of violations? And why would the members vote to allow a convicted offender to represebt their association?
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