How far is too far for a 45-70

[Smokinyotes]

Just wondering how far you guys will use a 45/70 on game? Took mine out today to check zero. Im sighted in 2.5" high at a 100. -8" at 200 and -28" at 300. Personally i wouldnt use it on gane past 200 yards.

[Dick284]

Lotsa bison have been harvested a lot further than 300 yards, way back when.

It's just a matter of dialing things up instead of Kentukying it. Factory irons on most lever guns aren't up to this task, btw.
Oh ya.
And the HMI issues too.

[Battle Rat]

There is more than enough buffalo killing energy at 300 yards.
A lot of wind drift too if it's breezy out so it's wise to limit your shots to whatever range you are comfortable at.

[gitrdun]

My neighbour runs a bison ranch. This year alone he has asked me to dispatch 3 animals. One huge bull and two cows. I've done the dirty deed with my .444 Marlin - 265gr Hornady FP's. I must admit that the first 2 kills were not all that pretty. He then provided me with a book that describes proper shot placement. The heart being the best place. The heart is much lower on the animal than what you may be used to with typical wild game. In spit of that, and having made a perfect shot on the animal a mere 30 yards away, I was questioning myself because it just stood there looking as though I had totally missed the shot. Fortunately, 15 or so seconds after that, she totally collapsed and expired. The lesson that I've learned from both bad and good experience is to not make a head shot on those critters.

[Battle Rat]

Originally Posted by gitrdun

My neighbour runs a bison ranch. This year alone he has asked me to dispatch 3 animals. One huge bull and two cows. I've done the dirty deed with my .444 Marlin - 265gr Hornady FP's. I must admit that the first 2 kills were not all that pretty. He then provided me with a book that describes proper shot placement. The heart being the best place. The heart is much lower on the animal than what you may be used to with typical wild game. In spit of that, and having made a perfect shot on the animal a mere 30 yards away, I was questioning myself because it just stood there looking as though I had totally missed the shot. Fortunately, 15 or so seconds after that, she totally collapsed and expired. The lesson that I've learned from both bad and good experience is to not make a head shot on those critters.

You are correct, a front on head shot is not the best choice.
Wes Olson, formally for Elk Island, who is probably Canada's leading expert on bison explained to me where to put a bullet.
He would aim behind the ear where the skin and bone is thinner.
If you missed a bit and hit the horn it would deflect the bullet I to the skull.
I skinned out two of his own old bulls he put down one day.
The hide is close to an inch thick on the shoulder area and would be not much thinner on the forehead.
Not a shot placement for hunting mind you but effective when slaughtering in a corral.
Also don't cut the throat to bleed them.
A long blade in from the front of the chest, cutting the top of the heart pumps the blood out better.

[Hawkeye]

I suspect that buffalo have some really thick bone over their brain, too, and likely a prominent frontal sinus, which would reduce penetration of a bullet. In most animals, the brain is higher than you would expect, so you have to aim fairly high.

I believe that for slaughter of domestic bison, people shoot them somewere in the back of the head, to keep the front of the skull intact as those skulls are often sold.

I do have vivid memories of butchering adult cattle on the farm. My father had an old milsurp 7 mauser that he would rest on a post and with iron sights, and close range, put a small round hole just above the eyes of a heifer or steer and they would fall on their shadow.

[JD848]

Delete.

[Dean2]

45=70 has lots of killing power out to 500 yards on Deer, Black Bear, moose and elk. I don't hunt buffalo so no opinion on them. The question is, can you estimate the range well enough and can you hit them. A range comp reticle is a far better choice than trying to crank turrets when dealing with this much drop.

I have shot a lot of game with a 45-70, most was under 200 yards, which makes it pretty much a point and shoot affair. I sight mine 4.5" high at 100 yards, puts you 2" low at 200 and 9" low at 250. Thus, at least to 250 yards with a scope you can shoot just fine. The issue at 500 yards is you will be 143 inches low, even at only 350 you are 44" low. That is why I say a ballistic reticle is the far better choice, or just get a gun that does 250 plus better.

[bobinthesky]

A couple of hundred yards with iron sights would likely be my personal limit on game too but for the most part, if you can hit the target then the 45-70 has enough power to do the job on any critter around here.

Lots of people shoot the 45-70 out to 1000 yards with the drop being approximately 16 yards. Some interesting studies were done in the 1800's right out to 3500 yards!

http://www.gunnersden.com/index.htm....ck-powder.html

[58thecat]

Originally Posted by Smokinyotes

Just wondering how far you guys will use a 45/70 on game? Took mine out today to check zero. Im sighted in 2.5" high at a 100. -8" at 200 and -28" at 300. Personally i wouldnt use it on gane past 200 yards.

If you are good to go a 200 yards then that's where you draw the line but that thumb bullet will kill well past that distance in the hands of a competent shooter...great calibre with a lot of history.

[Pioneer2]

A .444 will never be a 45-70 the former's bullet weight ends where the latter's begins. Harold

[gitrdun]

Originally Posted by Pioneer2

A .444 will never be a 45-70 the former's bullet weight ends where the latter's begins. Harold

I totally understand and agree with your statement Harold. When I purchased my .444 I can honestly tell you that I don't know why other than the fact that I had money in my wallet, I wanted a new toy, I wanted a saddle gun and finally that everyone and their cousin seems to own a 45-70. That being said, my triple 4 has never let me down as of yet.

[Smokinyotes]

Personally i dont think i would shoot any further than about 200 yards with mine. I know the 45/70 packs a punch cause my shoulder is a real nice bright purple today after shooting it yesterday.

[gitrdun]

Originally Posted by Smokinyotes

Personally i dont think i would shoot any further than about 200 yards with mine. I know the 45/70 packs a punch cause my shoulder is a real nice bright purple today after shooting it yesterday.

Owwwy!

[Dean2]

Originally Posted by Smokinyotes

Personally i dont think i would shoot any further than about 200 yards with mine. I know the 45/70 packs a punch cause my shoulder is a real nice bright purple today after shooting it yesterday.

You are either WAY over loading that 45-70 or you need to change your recoil pad. With 45-70s it is the big hole that kills. Massive kicking loads do not improve the killing power and they slow your second shot recovery greatly. After shooting many damage control bears with a 45-70 with different loads I know for sure that a 350 grn round nose Hornady at 1600 FPS kills every bit as good as one at 2300 fps. Both will go clear through a bear the long way. I load mine to 1800 and they hardly kick.

[silver]

Personnally, I would say my limit would be at what range I can hit a pie plate. On a deer, the heart lungs are about an 8 inch circle or a pie plate. If I was shooting from a solid rest and could take my time, then I would probably say about 300 yards. If the shot was off hand, then I would say about 100 yards.

[260 Rem]

By the numbers, the 45-70 will be falling below the 1000 foot pounds of energy (a base line considered by many to be adequate for big game kills), by the time it is approaching 300 yds. It helps that the wound channel is going to be large.
By comparison, a 243 Win (or the venerable 6 Dasher) will pretty much match the '70's energy at double that distance. OK! I know the effect of mass/momentum will be a factor.

[Twisted Canuck]

I don't want to stir the pot or be off topic here, and I only have one experience with a bison. That was shooting a big heifer in the coral, and the rancher instructed me very clearly to shoot her right between the eyes and don't miss. I put a 140 gr Nosler partition at 2850 fps from my 7mm-08 dead between her eyes at 30 yards, perfectly. That bison dropped like somebody had yanked the earth out from under her, I've never seen an animal go down like that before! So this is kind of contradictory to what gitrdun and Battle Rat had to say, but it is my only experience shooting one and I was 'just following orders'.... As a side note, that was by far the best meat we have ever had in our freezer, of all the wild game, beef, and bison I have shot or farm bought over the last 20 years.

So why wouldn't a big heavy 45-70 slug with way more kinetic energy at that range not do the same? Or did I just get really lucky that day....?

[The Spank]

Originally Posted by Dean2

45=70 has lots of killing power out to 500 yards on Deer, Black Bear, moose and elk. I don't hunt buffalo so no opinion on them. The question is, can you estimate the range well enough and can you hit them. A range comp reticle is a far better choice than trying to crank turrets when dealing with this much drop.

I have shot a lot of game with a 45-70, most was under 200 yards, which makes it pretty much a point and shoot affair. I sight mine 4.5" high at 100 yards, puts you 2" low at 200 and 9" low at 250. Thus, at least to 250 yards with a scope you can shoot just fine. The issue at 500 yards is you will be 143 inches low, even at only 350 you are 44" low. That is why I say a ballistic reticle is the far better choice, or just get a gun that does 250 plus better.

WOW!! And I thought my .348 dropped off the edge of the earth at those ranges?!!

[Dmay]

One of my proudest moments was, after putting a new Soule sight on my Pedersoli rolling block, putting 3 out of 7 shots into the "boiler room" of a bison at 700 yards. A Lyman 457125 driven by FFg.
Penetration was poor however, on the 3/16 steel silhouette at that range.

[Homesteader]

Originally Posted by Smokinyotes

I know the 45/70 packs a punch cause my shoulder is a real nice bright purple today after shooting it yesterday.

That's just cause you're a Puss

[Smokinyotes]

Originally Posted by Homesteader

That's just cause you're a Puss

Yup, when i get to be your age i will probably have to sell the old 45/70 and get myself some "managed recoil" loads for the 243.

[Homesteader]

Originally Posted by Smokinyotes

Yup, when i get to be your age i will probably have to sell the old 45/70 and get myself some "managed recoil" loads for the 243.

Haha, quite true. Us elderly bruise even easier, it's the blood thinners

You'll make it this far one day Grasshopper.

[gitrdun]

Originally Posted by Homesteader

Haha, quite true. Us elderly bruise even easier, it's the blood thinners

You'll make it this far one day Grasshopper.

Just have a couple more wobbly pops and you'll be just fine.

[Dean2]

Originally Posted by 260 Rem

By the numbers, the 45-70 will be falling below the 1000 foot pounds of energy (a base line considered by many to be adequate for big game kills), by the time it is approaching 300 yds. It helps that the wound channel is going to be large.
By comparison, a 243 Win (or the venerable 6 Dasher) will pretty much match the '70's energy at double that distance. OK! I know the effect of mass/momentum will be a factor.

I don't often disagree with with you but this 1000 Ft Lbs of energy baseline is wrong. It is a convenient measure but it doesn't stand up in real life. Long bows, Recurves and even compound bows, most if not all bows NEVER develop 1000 Ft Lbs of energy, nor do most muzzle loaders. A lot of the old BP cartridges didn't develop it either. They all still killed a ton of game and a lot of people. Blood loss from the big hole made by MLs, Bows and large calibre slugs is what kills, not the energy transfer. As long as you get sufficient penetration, and a 45-70 will go clear through a moose at 300 yards, it is very unlikely the 243 would, then the animal WILL die.

[catnthehat]

A 280 grain round ball at 150 yards has pretty dismal stats but I have seen it do things at that distance that defy the stats and I know for a fact that a hard cast 46/70 bullet over 400 grains will drop a moose where it stands
Cat

[gitrdun]

Shoot a heavy hitter once to that once in a lifetime critter, the recoil will soon be forgotten or not even mentioned. Shoot that same gun off a proper bench to dial it in, you'll remember it forever. Two different results from the same gun.

[260 Rem]

Originally Posted by Dean2

I don't often disagree with with you but this 1000 Ft Lbs of energy baseline is wrong. It is a convenient measure but it doesn't stand up in real life. Long bows, Recurves and even compound bows, most if not all bows NEVER develop 1000 Ft Lbs of energy, nor do most muzzle loaders. A lot of the old BP cartridges didn't develop it either. They all still killed a ton of game and a lot of people. Blood loss from the big hole made by MLs, Bows and large calibre slugs is what kills, not the energy transfer. As long as you get sufficient penetration, and a 45-70 will go clear through a moose at 300 yards, it is very unlikely the 243 would, then the animal WILL die.

I agree the 1000 ft lbs is more than enough for adequate penetration and also that big holes bleed more. Personally I would be hesitant to use a 105 gr 243 bullet to take game at more than 400M ...but that is just my own self imposed "limit".
Last deer hunting season, I carried my 30 carbine for bush hunting with the full knowledge that 75M would be my max effective kill distance.

[colroggal]

Originally Posted by Dmay

One of my proudest moments was, after putting a new Soule sight on my Pedersoli rolling block, putting 3 out of 7 shots into the "boiler room" of a bison at 700 yards. A Lyman 457125 driven by FFg.
Penetration was poor however, on the 3/16 steel silhouette at that range.

What did that taste like?

Colin

[Jack Hardin]

Originally Posted by Smokinyotes

Yup, when i get to be your age i will probably have to sell the old 45/70 and get myself some "managed recoil" loads for the 243.

I shoot The Marlin 1895 GBL, Pedersoli Springfield trapdoor and the Pedersoli Sharps all in 45-70, in both black and smokeless competitively with no sore shoulder and I'm 75 yrs old.

The key is to pull the butt tight to the shoulder. I shoot both off hand and with cross sticks using a 405 lead bullet with full load of black and recommended max of IMR 4198 in smokeless. The trapdoor has a metal stock pad as per original and the Sharps has a thin rubber stock pad.