Castle Management Plan

[Joe Black]

So cattle have caused no damage to streams and river banks, anywhere? Please, all you expierinced river fishers, please tell me that you have never seen any damage done by cattle on streams and rivers. Somehow, mysteriously, this has not been noted or mentioned by all these scientists talking about sediments.
I would have respect for their opionions if they included all causes of sediments rather than speak solely on the one they wish to eliminate.


I'm a simple man. Explain this to me please. Anyone????

[Chief16]

Originally Posted by Joe Black

So cattle have caused no damage to streams and river banks, anywhere? Please, all you expierinced river fishers, please tell me that you have never seen any damage done by cattle on streams and rivers. Somehow, mysteriously, this has not been noted or mentioned by all these scientists talking about sediments.
I would have respect for their opionions if they included all causes of sediments rather than speak solely on the one they wish to eliminate.


I'm a simple man. Explain this to me please. Anyone????

https://www.researchgate.net/profile...1e71000000.pdf

https://www.researchgate.net/profile...d3d5000000.pdf

https://www.researchgate.net/profile...Mitigation.pdf

This topic is actually being talked about by "scientists". Lots of research out there in the world if you care to look for it.
I am not weighing in one way or another on this topic but I do agree with the previous discussion about the facts. These are just a few papers I had done with a quick 5 minute search on google scholar so they are not the most specific for the discussion at hand but just using an example that if you want to mount an arguenent one way or another, there is information to back up your claims. The fact of the matter is, the information is out there for those who care to look.

[Joe Black]

So why is mr. Finch fixated on only one source? True science explores all possibilities does it not? I'm assuming mr finch knows how to use the google as well(or better) than you do, and could have found these studies before he wrote his article to ensure all factors were discussed. Or is ther another reason he wrote it,,,,,,,


My point being many are quick to applaud a closure for one user group if they do not participate in that activity, or if the closure is beneficial to themselves. Quite selfish really.

[Chief16]

Originally Posted by Joe Black

So why is mr. Finch fixated on only one source? True science explores all possibilities does it not? I'm assuming mr finch knows how to use the google as well(or better) than you do, and could have found these studies before he wrote his article to ensure all factors were discussed. Or is ther another reason he wrote it,,,,,,,


My point being many are quick to applaud a closure for one user group if they do not participate in that activity, or if the closure is beneficial to themselves. Quite selfish really.

The only thing is that this is a provincial park so I am assuming there are no cattle there where the ban is? I could be wrong.
Other than that, I agree with you there are many other factors out there but at the same OHVs are indeed one of those contributing factors. I am a supporter of the ban but everyone is entitled to an open opinion on this forum, whether that be for or against it.

[Myles]

Originally Posted by Joe Black

So why is mr. Finch fixated on only one source? True science explores all possibilities does it not? I'm assuming mr finch knows how to use the google as well(or better) than you do, and could have found these studies before he wrote his article to ensure all factors were discussed. Or is ther another reason he wrote it,,,,,,,


My point being many are quick to applaud a closure for one user group if they do not participate in that activity, or if the closure is beneficial to themselves. Quite selfish really.

Beneficial to themselves? No, beneficial to the threatened species of cutthroat and bull trout that have existed in the Castle for thousands of years. We made bull trout our provincial fish in the 90's to raise awareness and they still aren't recovering. Sedimentation caused by ATVs is a contributing factor whether you agree with that fact or not. Here's a copy of the bull trout recovery plan written in 2012 that talks about it (Section 5.3).

http://aep.alberta.ca/fish-wildlife/...gementPlan.pdf

[smitty9]

..delete...duplicate

[Joe Black]

Winner eh? Sweet.

Doesn't take much to get your waders in a bunch. Keep believing you past time is the only true form of sport by which all others should be compared.

We're not worthy, we're not worthy,,,,,

[FlyTheory]

Originally Posted by Joe Black

Winner eh? Sweet.

Doesn't take much to get your waders in a bunch. Keep believing you past time is the only true form of sport by which all others should be compared.

We're not worthy, we're not worthy...

Nope, we're just giving you the facts. Pretty sure many have acknowledged both of the pastimes have impacts. You seem to be pretty knotted up, dude it's chill. We're just discussing this, don't worry about it.

[Okotokian]

Originally Posted by Joe Black

My point being many are quick to applaud a closure for one user group if they do not participate in that activity, or if the closure is beneficial to themselves. Quite selfish really.

Or demand that something be allowed, to the detriment of all others, including the threatened wildlife, just because they love the roar of the engine. Quite selfish really. (OK, cheap shot about the roar of the engine. I'll take responsibility for that. Sorry LOL).

This is in the fly fishing part of the forum. Can I assume you are a fly fisherman? Not saying your comments are inappropriate or misplaced at all. It would just be useful to know where you are coming from. That's all.

For me, cutthroat trump quads. Fish are part of my self-interest. I'm not going to be shy or apologetic about that.

[FishALotNot]

Originally Posted by Joe Black

So why is mr. Finch fixated on only one source? True science explores all possibilities does it not? I'm assuming mr finch knows how to use the google as well(or better) than you do, and could have found these studies before he wrote his article to ensure all factors were discussed. Or is ther another reason he wrote it,,,,,,,

A little late to the discussion, but I saw this comment and burst out laughing.

Hey 'Joe' - you do know what Lorne Fitch is most recognized for in Alberta, right? He was the driving force behind the highly successful "Cows and Fish" program in Alberta, which was a collaborative project to engage ranchers and acquire provincial conservation resources to protect and restore impacted riparian habitats. It is highly recognized as one of the big "win-win" conservation movements in Alberta, gathering many well deserved awards and accolades.

Anyways, since you clearly know about Google, please look it up - I think you owe Lorne an apology for your off-the-cuff criticism and inflammatory (and ironically inaccurate) statements.

[SNAPFisher]

Originally Posted by Joe Black

So cattle have caused no damage to streams and river banks, anywhere? Please, all you expierinced river fishers, please tell me that you have never seen any damage done by cattle on streams and rivers. Somehow, mysteriously, this has not been noted or mentioned by all these scientists talking about sediments.
I would have respect for their opionions if they included all causes of sediments rather than speak solely on the one they wish to eliminate.


I'm a simple man. Explain this to me please. Anyone????

Joe, you raise good points but avoiding the OHV problem is not the answer. It is a starting point.

If you take the creek that I live on as an example. Cattle were there long, long before the ATV was around and even when it started. There was fish in the creek then and people enjoyed it. Ranchers were responsible and obviously the impact was minimal or at least the impact was such that fish could exist and people could enjoy the resource. Once the ATVers arrived that all changed. Total destruction is a good way to put it - no fish left and choked off stream.

I could also go into lots of incidents such as cattle being chased by ATVers...over / through fences, ranchers threatened, visitors threatened. And much worse. All on private property. I know I'm not talking about the Castle area but I'm trying to make the point that disgusting acts like this should lead to a ban of ATVs in sensitive areas. I see ATVs running through the headwaters, as in the case in the Castle area, pretty much the same "go where I want, destroy what I want" attitude transposed to yet another area.

[FlyTheory]

Originally Posted by SNAPFisher

Joe, you raise good points but avoiding the OHV problem is not the answer. It is a starting point.

If you take the creek that I live on as an example. Cattle were there long, long before the ATV was around and even when it started. There was fish in the creek then and people enjoyed it. Ranchers were responsible and obviously the impact was minimal or at least the impact was such that fish could exist and people could enjoy the resource. Once the ATVers arrived that all changed. Total destruction is a good way to put it - no fish left and choked off stream.

I could also go into lots of incidents such as cattle being chased by ATVers...over / through fences, ranchers threatened, visitors threatened. And much worse. All on private property. I know I'm not talking about the Castle area but I'm trying to make the point that disgusting acts like this should lead to a ban of ATVs in sensitive areas. I see ATVs running through the headwaters, as in the case in the Castle area, pretty much the same "go where I want, destroy what I want" attitude transposed to yet another area.

Do I remember correctly you've had an issue with ATVers around your area and destroying creekland? Like you have first hand experience with this. Right?

[SNAPFisher]

Originally Posted by FlyTheory

Do I remember correctly you've had an issue with ATVers around your area and destroying creekland? Like you have first hand experience with this. Right?

Yes, unbelievable amount of. 4 years dedicated to protecting my own land. Lot s of help though from all the neighbors in making this happen. Now with the ATVers generally gone. We are working at restoring the creek but it will take us and nature a long...long time. So worth it though...and so quiet now not having ATVers ripping through your property at all times of the day/night.

Yep, I'm biased for sure... but no wonder