Edmonton safe injection site location

[Redfrog]

Originally Posted by silverdoctor

And I have to say Red - there's no possible way that you could be OK with society force feeding children amphetamines? How about methamphetamines? How about heroin?

I'm not.

Rehab over criminalization? Sure I'm down with that. If an addict wants to get clean/sober. of course it makes sense.

Unfortunately the reality is different.

How many addicts are clean and sober because of these injection sites? On a percentage basis.

How many addicts simply stop their life of crime and move toward the light of social responsibility.

How many have moved form being a drain on society and their families to being a contributor to the betterment of society.

Let's not muddy the issue with alcoholics, wife beaters, perverts, whistlers , jugglers. Gypsies, tramps etc. Lets stick with Canada and illegal drug use, safe injection sites and the success of existing programs.

We are not Portugal, The Phillipines, Laos, Thailand etc.

Where is the nuts and bolts results of these injection sites from a benefit to society POV. an addict with or without HIV/Aids is still an addict. the difference is Joe sixpack who contracts HIV/Aids from a blood transfusion he gets less gov't support than the addict. after a lifetime of contributing to society.

A kid with Diabetes who will grow to be a contributor to society does not get anywhere near the support a thieving addict does. that's the reality.

[covey ridge]

Originally Posted by neilsledder

Yah they are we should just stop arresting criminals!
Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

They should just stop making 2 bit offences into criminal offences.

[SlimChance]

Originally Posted by Redfrog

I'm not.

Rehab over criminalization? Sure I'm down with that. If an addict wants to get clean/sober. of course it makes sense.

Unfortunately the reality is different.

How many addicts are clean and sober because of these injection sites? On a percentage basis.

Studies on InSite in Vancouver have found addicts are 30% more likely to seek treatment when using safe injection sites.

How many addicts simply stop their life of crime and move toward the light of social responsibility.

How many have moved form being a drain on society and their families to being a contributor to the betterment of society.

There's a false equivalency here that all addicts are also career criminals and that's not the case. Just like there are functioning alcoholics, addicts can be functioning to varying degrees. Many, many others suffer from a variety of mental illnesses and would not be in a position of social responsibility with or without drugs.

That said, if 30% more are seeking treatment of their own volition, we can assume that a greater number will be successful.

Let's not muddy the issue with alcoholics, wife beaters, perverts, whistlers , jugglers. Gypsies, tramps etc. Lets stick with Canada and illegal drug use, safe injection sites and the success of existing programs.

Where is the nuts and bolts results of these injection sites from a benefit to society POV. an addict with or without HIV/Aids is still an addict.

Luckily, we have a pioneering safe injection site in Vancouver that's been the subject of 40+ studies.

HIV infection rates have plunged. Overdose deaths have dropped by 35%. For every dollar spent on InSite, BC Health has saved between $1.50 and $4.00.

the difference is Joe sixpack who contracts HIV/Aids from a blood transfusion he gets less gov't support than the addict. after a lifetime of contributing to society.

I'm not familiar with the ins and outs of HIV/AIDS treatment in Canada. What services/treatments do HIV positive addicts get that a non-addicts don't?

[Redfrog]

Thanks for the info. a little clarification please.

Does that mean that 30 % of addicts who use these sites actually seek treatment to kick the habit? If so what is the success rate? How many get clean and sober and stay that way?

I see you brought alcoholics to the party. Any idea how many alcoholics steal, prostitute themselves etc. to get beer money?

How about addicts. How many commit crimes to support their addiction? It's not enough to say there are functioning addicts if it is one is ten thousand. If it were 30 percent functioning and this program brought that number down by the 30 percent who are trying to get clean, then that would be impressive. I doubt that is the case.

I agree with you on the mental illness aspect. That was thrown into the mix 40 years ago when gov't restructured mental illness treatment issues. Read discontinued treatment and facilities.

FYI I'm not speaking to this issue from the POV of some old redneck white guy from the sticks.

I worked in Vancouver on the downtown eastside for a few years. I've seen first hand the people and their struggles. I've had friends and family who were addicts and some still are. I can't recall one who made it back to normal.

I've also had friends who were in mental institutions including Penatanguishene for the criminally insane who were cycled out when a political solution was used instead of a medical one. There were no good results there.

I have little to no faith in the efficacy of the programs like this.

As I said, I was around when drug addiction was not a serious social or medical issue.

War on drugs? Don't even get me started.

[covey ridge]

Originally Posted by Redfrog

I see you brought alcoholics to the party. Any idea how many alcoholics steal, prostitute themselves etc. to get beer money?

There are functioning addicts like there are functioning alcoholics. Not all of them are seen to hit the bottom of the bucket. Alcoholics like addicts will do what they have to get their poison of choice. Alcoholics do prostitute themselves and steal to get money for booze, usually cheap wine because beer costs too much. Like addicts that choose questionable substances when they are desperate, alcoholics will drink anything they think has L K hall in it. They die in the streets like addicts and end up in hospitals in comas. I have dealt with alcoholics that have robbed to get enough for a bottle of cheap red and some that left their victims to die. I know of some that have chosen booze over family that was left to starve and when the family had money for food the alcoholic drank it.

Yep there was not as much dope on the streets in the 50s but that was because opium was expensive and booze was legal. I think in the 50s a lot of the young people who got into drugs did so because they did not want to become drunks like their parents.

No one can force a drunk or an addict to quit. Both have to want to do it for themselves. The best society can do is to protect and keep some of them safe.
It would be easy to say it is their fault and because of that they should die if they can not get their act together.

There are flop houses for boozers to sleep it off and many boozers can sleep it off in police custody. The governments waste our money on things way less important than protecting human life.

Until there is a better solution, I have no problem with safe injection sites.

That said, I do not expect anyone to agree with me.

[SlimChance]

Originally Posted by Redfrog

Thanks for the info. a little clarification please.

Does that mean that 30 % of addicts who use these sites actually seek treatment to kick the habit? If so what is the success rate? How many get clean and sober and stay that way?

If treatment facilities were having 100 people show up on their own accord before, they were seeing 130 show up after safe injection sites.

Everything I've read points to between 40 and 60% relapse rates. So, before safe injection, we had our 100 people show up and maybe 50 stayed clean. After safe injection, we had 130 show up and 65 stayed clean.

I see you brought alcoholics to the party. Any idea how many alcoholics steal, prostitute themselves etc. to get beer money?

How about addicts. How many commit crimes to support their addiction? It's not enough to say there are functioning addicts if it is one is ten thousand. If it were 30 percent functioning and this program brought that number down by the 30 percent who are trying to get clean, then that would be impressive. I doubt that is the case.

I mentioned alcohol only to point out that not every drug addict is a homeless petty criminal. Doubtless, hard drugs are more closely related to property crime and prostitution than alcohol. Then again, alcohol's a huge factor in violent crime. Either way, it's not really relevant and was only mentioned as an analogy.

I agree with you on the mental illness aspect. That was thrown into the mix 40 years ago when gov't restructured mental illness treatment issues. Read discontinued treatment and facilities.

FYI I'm not speaking to this issue from the POV of some old redneck white guy from the sticks.

I worked in Vancouver on the downtown eastside for a few years. I've seen first hand the people and their struggles. I've had friends and family who were addicts and some still are. I can't recall one who made it back to normal.

I've also had friends who were in mental institutions including Penatanguishene for the criminally insane who were cycled out when a political solution was used instead of a medical one. There were no good results there.

I have little to no faith in the efficacy of the programs like this.

As I said, I was around when drug addiction was not a serious social or medical issue.

War on drugs? Don't even get me started.

This situation isn't all that different than the closing of mental health facilities. Sending people who needed facilities and treatment out into the world proved to be a bad idea.

Similarly, pushing addicts to back alleys and drug houses only leads to increased disease and overdoses.

[guywiththemule]

Originally Posted by Redfrog

Care to tell us where this guy gets his money for his habit? How about the addict. Where does his come from.

And how is the beer drinker a bigger drain. Free beer sites?????

Maybe accept personal responsibility for your statements.

Hitting "LIKE" button !!

[Spooner]

Originally Posted by guywiththemule

Hitting "LIKE" button !!

Covey Ridge and Slimchance did the spoon feeding. I don't have the patience for it.

[sns2]

Originally Posted by covey ridge

There are functioning addicts like there are functioning alcoholics. Not all of them are seen to hit the bottom of the bucket. Alcoholics like addicts will do what they have to get their poison of choice. Alcoholics do prostitute themselves and steal to get money for booze, usually cheap wine because beer costs too much. Like addicts that choose questionable substances when they are desperate, alcoholics will drink anything they think has L K hall in it. They die in the streets like addicts and end up in hospitals in comas. I have dealt with alcoholics that have robbed to get enough for a bottle of cheap red and some that left their victims to die. I know of some that have chosen booze over family that was left to starve and when the family had money for food the alcoholic drank it.

Yep there was not as much dope on the streets in the 50s but that was because opium was expensive and booze was legal. I think in the 50s a lot of the young people who got into drugs did so because they did not want to become drunks like their parents.

No one can force a drunk or an addict to quit. Both have to want to do it for themselves. The best society can do is to protect and keep some of them safe.
It would be easy to say it is their fault and because of that they should die if they can not get their act together.

There are flop houses for boozers to sleep it off and many boozers can sleep it off in police custody. The governments waste our money on things way less important than protecting human life.

Until there is a better solution, I have no problem with safe injection sites.

That said, I do not expect anyone to agree with me.

Covey, you have a pretty steady handle on the steering wheel of life. This post continues to show it.

[58thecat]

Originally Posted by fishtank

one of the site at the royal Alex hospital .. if something goes wrong, they have doctors close by .

Something has already gone wrong...providing druggies a fix....

[Redfrog]

"Yep there was not as much dope on the streets in the 50s but that was because opium was expensive and booze was legal. I think in the 50s a lot of the young people who got into drugs did so because they did not want to become drunks like their parents."

Where did you get this info?

Opium?? You mean like Chinese railway workers used?

And young people turned to drugs because they didn't want to be drunks???

"I'm gonna smoke a little opium instead of having a cold beer after tossing bales all day."

[sns2]

My first, second, and third inclination was to say to heck with injection sites. But, as I get older, I am realizing that lots of my pull up your bootstraps way of looking at life is many times unrealistic in the real world. American prisons are bursting at the seams for drug charges. Tough doesn't always work. I had the opportunity to listen to the man who started and oversaw the east van injection site speak. The overwhelming majority of users of these sites have severe, underlying mental health issues, and frequently organic brain disorders. All things being equal, pull up your bootstraps is a good idea. Unfortunately, life isn't always equal, and fair isn't always equal. One of the measures of a society's true humanity is how we help those who cannot help themselves. I am okay with these sites, and while we are not Portugal, I would be in favor of trying what they have done. Our approach to incarceration does not work in its current format, and neither does our current approach to drug use. And this has nothing to do with politics, it is about being honest about what has not worked, and trying new things to achieve better outcomes. Just my opinion. Don't think anyone needs to have the same one either.

[Redfrog]

"The overwhelming majority of users of these sites have severe, underlying mental health issues, and frequently organic brain disorders."

Not sure I'd say majority , but definitely many have mental issues. So treat them as mental patients instead of throwing money and resources at a self perpetuating situation. It for sure is a political solution to a social or medical issue.

In the illegal drug trade who gets locked up? Who gets swift and sure justice for their criminal behavior?

Do you think that someone with a hundred convictions as well as charges pending for theft is treated harshly? Is that why they re offend and re offend ad nauseum? They are not incarcerated, they are free to continue their activities. If they got 5 years the first time, at least they would not be stealing for 5 years.

[sns2]

Red, respectfully I am not interested in riddles or changing anyone else's view. Just giving my own, which was changed as I sat and listened for a couple of hours to the guy who did something based on his convictions and years of clinical medical experience working with addicts. My view, when coupled with a buck will get me a coffee at Mcdonalds. Your view when coupled with a buck on top will get you about the same. They are just opinions.

[cowmanbob]

Originally Posted by sns2

Red, respectfully I am not interested in riddles or changing anyone else's view. Just giving my own, which was changed as I sat and listened for a couple of hours to the guy who did something based on his convictions and years of clinical medical experience working with addicts. My view, when coupled with a buck will get me a coffee at Mcdonalds. Your view when coupled with a buck on top will get you about the same. They are just opinions.

Here's one that isn't just an opinion, the possession of these drugs are illegal.

[sns2]

At this point in time anyhow...

Sent from my LG-H812 using Tapatalk

[sns2]

But, as we all know the only constant in this world is change. Obviously, not all change is good, nor is all change bad. If you want to build more prisons to house drug addicts, that's your prerogative. I would rather try a different approach. One that may prove to be much cheaper in the long run.

Sent from my LG-H812 using Tapatalk

[Spooner]

Originally Posted by cowmanbob

Here's one that isn't just an opinion, the possession of these drugs are illegal.

They are currently illegal.

Just like booze was at one time illegal. That didn't make sense did it? So we changed it.

Like alcohol, other drugs will be decriminalized for many of the same reasons.

The criminalization of other drugs has been an enormous failure by any measure.

All we have done is:
1. waste trillions, not very conservative of us
2. create a giant black market
3. empower criminals and organize zed crime with easy money
4. corrupt our judicial, police, political, security, military and incarceration systems systems
5. Make narcotics more desirable
6. Driven social issues underground, negatively impacting communities

And so on.

They may be scheduled substances at the moment, but that is going to change, because it has to.

Our willful ignorance has cost us far too much.

[cowmanbob]

On point 6, legalizing drugs would positively affect communities you think?

[Spooner]

Originally Posted by cowmanbob

On point 6, legalizing drugs would positively affect communities you think?

Legalize and regulate.

Yes, absolutely.

[silverdoctor]

Originally Posted by cowmanbob

Here's one that isn't just an opinion, the possession of these drugs are illegal.

Buying heroin off the streets and getting addicted is illegal.

Getting Oxy from a doctor and getting addicted is legal.

Makes alot of sense doesn't it?

[covey ridge]

Originally Posted by silverdoctor

Buying heroin off the streets and getting addicted is illegal.

Getting Oxy from a doctor and getting addicted is legal.

Makes alot of sense doesn't it?

Selling drugs on the street is illegal.
Getting addicted to anything is not illegal.

[cowmanbob]

Originally Posted by Spooner

Legalize and regulate.

Yes, absolutely.

That's probably what's going to happen, but I would have to disagree.

[DExplorer]

Seems Edmonton treats drug use as a healthcare issue instead of a criminal one.

[Hillbilly 12]

Spooner, you want legalize it all. That is a dumbest thing I've ever heard, there is still right and wrong in this world, (morals). What is wrong with ( if our government would) start killing drug dealers and getting serious with drug users, and not give these wastes free everything. So people who steal cars all the time, your logic is we should provide them with free ones so they don't steal others cars, and this if fixing the root problem.

[silverdoctor]

Originally Posted by Hillbilly 12

Spooner, you want legalize it all. That is a dumbest thing I've ever heard, there is still right and wrong in this world, (morals). What is wrong with ( if our government would) start killing drug dealers and getting serious with drug users, and not give these wastes free everything. So people who steal cars all the time, your logic is we should provide them with free ones so they don't steal others cars, and this if fixing the root problem.

Be shooting alot of doctors, the legal heroin dealers.

[Spooner]

Originally Posted by Hillbilly 12

Spooner, you want legalize it all. That is a dumbest thing I've ever heard, there is still right and wrong in this world, (morals). What is wrong with ( if our government would) start killing drug dealers and getting serious with drug users, and not give these wastes free everything. So people who steal cars all the time, your logic is we should provide them with free ones so they don't steal others cars, and this if fixing the root problem.

Morally, is it any different than drinking?

We know that legalizing drugs makes them less desirable and reduces the risk and harm.

Drug use and abuse is a social issue, not a criminal one.

How do you feel about executing alcoholics?

Seems reasonable huh?

If we decriminalize or legalize narcotics, there won't be such a black market.

Poof. No more drug dealers. Everyone is regulated.

[Hillbilly 12]

Originally Posted by Spooner

Morally, is it any different than drinking?

We know that legalizing drugs makes them less desirable and reduces the risk and harm.

Drug use and abuse is a social issue, not a criminal one.

How do you feel about executing alcoholics?

Seems reasonable huh?

If we decriminalize or legalize narcotics, there won't be such a black market.

Poof. No more drug dealers. Everyone is regulated.

Morally, yes because you can have a beer without getting addicted, but take a shot of meth and you are addicted. Giving addicts the funds to continue using is stupid.

Achoholics do not traffic, nor do druggies.

How does saying it's legal make the drug less addictive or deadly?

It is a criminal issue when they steal to fund their habit, unless we over look stealing and call it permanent borrowing.

Ok so say stealing is now legal, no more chop shops!!!!!!, I wouldn't mind making more guns legal..... They would be less desirable right?, but no they are trying to take them away for law abiding people.

[Spooner]

Most of your comments are baseless and off topic.

Most people that use amphetamines and opioids never get addicted.

Most people have used amphetamines and opioids. No issue.

Most homeless people are alcoholics.

Most drug addicts were alcoholics before they started using heavier drugs.

Decriminalization and legalization will help people and communities and reduce our tax burden.

Safe injection sites are a small step in the right direction.

If you want to learn more about the subject, there is lots of info at your finger tips.

[robson3954]

Originally Posted by Spooner

Most of your comments are baseless and off topic.

Most people that use amphetamines and opioids never get addicted.

Most people have used amphetamines and opioids. No issue.

Most homeless people are alcoholics.

Most drug addicts were alcoholics before they started using heavier drugs.

Decriminalization and legalization will help people and communities and reduce our tax burden.

Safe injection sites are a small step in the right direction.

If you want to learn more about the subject, there is lots of info at your finger tips.

I appreciate your intellectual patience. I usually shut down after one or two rounds of this sort of banter as facts and rational arguements don’t matter. I’ll go out on a (fairly sturdy) limb and guess these guys may fall into the young earth camp too lol