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  #1  
Old 03-24-2019, 02:11 PM
KrisRD KrisRD is offline
 
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Default Arrow Spine Stiffness Recommendations

I recently bought a new-to-me Hoyt Pro Defiant 34 and I am wondering what arrow spine stiffness to go with. I talked to a local shop and they recommended Easton powerflight's with a 340 spine. After researching, I think 300 may be what I need but I'm not sure. Here are the specs:
-70lb draw weight
-30.5" draw length (not including D-loop)
-approximately 31" arrow length
-IBO speed is 325fps
-I recorded real-world speed at 298 fps with a 432 grain arrow

Thoughts? Cheers!
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  #2  
Old 03-24-2019, 02:20 PM
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standsureoutdoors standsureoutdoors is offline
 
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Hey Kris,

What weight of boradhead/field point are you planning on running and are you planning on using the standard weight inserts or a heavier brass insert?
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Old 03-24-2019, 02:30 PM
KrisRD KrisRD is offline
 
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I will likely stick with the standard insert, 100 grain field point and 100 grain broadhead. I'll likely be using the Thorn archery 100 grain expandable broadhead. Thanks for the help!
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Old 03-24-2019, 02:51 PM
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standsureoutdoors standsureoutdoors is offline
 
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Hey Kris,

I just ran that info through my software and it shows you being in a 300 spine arrow.

If anything it shows that you would be a hair weak in a 300 but still well within range.

Cheers
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  #5  
Old 03-24-2019, 03:32 PM
KrisRD KrisRD is offline
 
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Thats what I've been thinking as well. I appreciate the help!
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Old 03-24-2019, 08:37 PM
KrisRD KrisRD is offline
 
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One more question if you don’t mind... recommendations on a good arrow that comes in a 300 spine? Thinking just carbons over FMJ but any input is appreciated. Thanks!
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  #7  
Old 03-25-2019, 12:52 AM
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standsureoutdoors standsureoutdoors is offline
 
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If you’re looking to stick with carbons. The Easton Axis (5mm) or If you want to stick with standard diameter arrows can’t go wrong with Gold Tip Hunter XTs. Very durable.
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Old 03-25-2019, 05:21 AM
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For all carbon shafts Victory makes an excellent choice in small diameter shafts in their Vap selection, as well as their V-force line up in standard diameter shafts.

Norm
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  #9  
Old 03-26-2019, 09:30 PM
KrisRD KrisRD is offline
 
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Appreciate the help. Thanks guys!

In your opinions, is going to a FMJ worth it?
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  #10  
Old 03-26-2019, 11:58 PM
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standsureoutdoors standsureoutdoors is offline
 
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Personally no, an FMJ is very heavy gpi and being that the exterior is aluminum they are susceptible to bending after hard impacts, repeated shots into tough foam can also be hard on them.

just my opinion, carbon has way less memory to routine bending from impact.
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  #11  
Old 03-27-2019, 05:40 AM
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brendan's dad brendan's dad is offline
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by KrisRD View Post
One more question if you don’t mind... recommendations on a good arrow that comes in a 300 spine? Thinking just carbons over FMJ but any input is appreciated. Thanks!
https://www.amazon.ca/Gold-Tip-Hunte...ay&sr=8-2&th=1

I buy all my arrows on line. but I have an arrow saw and do my own fletching. If you pick up these shafts you will need a shop to cut and glue in the inserts; probably $1-2 dollars an arrow. Jimbows carry Gold Tips, you might give them a call and see if they have any 300's in stock and what the is price. If you buy from Jimbow's I believe the cutting to length and insert installation is included.
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  #12  
Old 06-25-2019, 04:33 PM
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C-Lublinkhof C-Lublinkhof is offline
 
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Hope you don’t mind if I also ask for some advice. I just ordered a new APA Mamba 33 XR with 80# limbs and 31.5 in draw. 355fps IBO. From what I’ve seen online in my research I will probably need a 30.5in 250 spine arrow? And if I want to shoot a heavier broadhead (150-200gr) I would probably need 200 spine? Arrows seem to be hard to come by in this range I’m finding. Just wondering if I’m on the right track here. Thanks.
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  #13  
Old 06-26-2019, 07:21 AM
jcrayford jcrayford is offline
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by standsureoutdoors View Post
Personally no, an FMJ is very heavy gpi and being that the exterior is aluminum they are susceptible to bending after hard impacts, repeated shots into tough foam can also be hard on them.

just my opinion, carbon has way less memory to routine bending from impact.
Hey Kris, thought I'd have some input on this.

I've been shooting FMJ's for years now. 29.5" DL, 72# DW, Hoyt Carbon Element. Starting shooting 340 FMJ, stepped up to 300 FMJ. The 300's shoot and group better than the 340s for sure.

As for the durability; Yes, they will retain a bend if something hard is hit. Can't comment on the repeated shots into tough foam? I use a Rinehart 18-1 and haven't noticed anything like that. But in retrospect, Most of my shooting is into that Rinehart target (not bouncing off of rocks or other hard objects) and the practice sessions is what archers are doing. The aluminum skin on the FMJs allow for much easier extraction of the arrow from the target (almost 2 fingers only in my case) and that easier extraction has saved my shoulders over the years. I really don't care about the condition of the heavy weighted FMJ after it's passed through an animal because it has done its job.

I have another brand of all-carbon arrow and they basically glue themselves into ANY target that I shoot at. Not saying that all carbons are like this or that there isn't ways to alleviate this situation. But the FMJ's help with the pulling of the arrows on the multiple practice sessions that we as archer have.

Do your checks on your arrows after hard hits/close impacts. I usually will tap the arrow on my knuckle and listen for the broken strands of carbon inside.

Just my thoughts....

J.
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Old 06-26-2019, 08:08 AM
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KyleSS KyleSS is offline
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by jcrayford View Post
Hey Kris, thought I'd have some input on this.

I've been shooting FMJ's for years now. 29.5" DL, 72# DW, Hoyt Carbon Element. Starting shooting 340 FMJ, stepped up to 300 FMJ. The 300's shoot and group better than the 340s for sure.

As for the durability; Yes, they will retain a bend if something hard is hit. Can't comment on the repeated shots into tough foam? I use a Rinehart 18-1 and haven't noticed anything like that. But in retrospect, Most of my shooting is into that Rinehart target (not bouncing off of rocks or other hard objects) and the practice sessions is what archers are doing. The aluminum skin on the FMJs allow for much easier extraction of the arrow from the target (almost 2 fingers only in my case) and that easier extraction has saved my shoulders over the years. I really don't care about the condition of the heavy weighted FMJ after it's passed through an animal because it has done its job.

I have another brand of all-carbon arrow and they basically glue themselves into ANY target that I shoot at. Not saying that all carbons are like this or that there isn't ways to alleviate this situation. But the FMJ's help with the pulling of the arrows on the multiple practice sessions that we as archer have.

Do your checks on your arrows after hard hits/close impacts. I usually will tap the arrow on my knuckle and listen for the broken strands of carbon inside.

Just my thoughts....

J.
For me, I'd rather apply a little arrow lube to the arrow every 5 shots as opposed to trying to straighten bent arrows. The advancement of carbon arrows over aluminum was a huge jump in technology. The best part was you never had to worry about bent arrows. To me, personally, the FMJ's are a step back in technology. There are multiple heavy weigh carbon arrows available if high GPI is what you're looking for.
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Old 06-26-2019, 09:19 AM
tbrown tbrown is offline
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by C-Lublinkhof View Post
Hope you don’t mind if I also ask for some advice. I just ordered a new APA Mamba 33 XR with 80# limbs and 31.5 in draw. 355fps IBO. From what I’ve seen online in my research I will probably need a 30.5in 250 spine arrow? And if I want to shoot a heavier broadhead (150-200gr) I would probably need 200 spine? Arrows seem to be hard to come by in this range I’m finding. Just wondering if I’m on the right track here. Thanks.
I am running the Easton axis 260 spine with 50 gain insert and 125 grain points. I think its about 12 percent FOC. So far i am happy them, they fly like laser beams and have tuned well. I am @ 31'' draw 72 lbs. iB0 335fps (not sure actual speed). I think my total arrow weight is around 550 ish.

if you are having a hard time finding stiff enough arrows, you could always turn your poundage down some till you find something that works. But the easton 260 is an option. Jim bows and accurate archery carries them.
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Old 06-26-2019, 01:43 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by C-Lublinkhof View Post
Hope you don’t mind if I also ask for some advice. I just ordered a new APA Mamba 33 XR with 80# limbs and 31.5 in draw. 355fps IBO. From what I’ve seen online in my research I will probably need a 30.5in 250 spine arrow? And if I want to shoot a heavier broadhead (150-200gr) I would probably need 200 spine? Arrows seem to be hard to come by in this range I’m finding. Just wondering if I’m on the right track here. Thanks.
Kill'N Stix also offer a 250 spine arrow
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  #17  
Old 06-26-2019, 03:49 PM
KrisRD KrisRD is offline
 
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Hi guys, thanks for the input. I ended up going with 300 easton powerflights for now. Not the highest quality arrow but i've still been able to get them grouping fairly consistently. I have numbered my arrows to see if there are any that are shooting more poorly or more consistently and I have noticed that some are much more consistent than others which has me thinking about upgrading my arrows. Would you say that I will notice a significant difference if I upgrade my arrows to something like a Victory VAP Gamer, or something similar that has higher tolerances and is spine aligned? I'm sure it would be somewhat better, but hoping for input on if its worth the $$.

*Just wanted to note that this is in reference to the original post

Last edited by KrisRD; 06-26-2019 at 03:57 PM.
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  #18  
Old 06-27-2019, 08:16 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by KrisRD View Post
Hi guys, thanks for the input. I ended up going with 300 easton powerflights for now. Not the highest quality arrow but i've still been able to get them grouping fairly consistently. I have numbered my arrows to see if there are any that are shooting more poorly or more consistently and I have noticed that some are much more consistent than others which has me thinking about upgrading my arrows. Would you say that I will notice a significant difference if I upgrade my arrows to something like a Victory VAP Gamer, or something similar that has higher tolerances and is spine aligned? I'm sure it would be somewhat better, but hoping for input on if its worth the $$.

*Just wanted to note that this is in reference to the original post
Before running out and buying new arrows again, you can try to nock tune the arrows that are not hitting with the group. If you are running 3 fletch, spin the nock and try a different cock vane up (2 chances) . If 4 fletch you will turn the nock 90 degrees (3 chances) and this may help bring a flier back into the group!
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  #19  
Old 06-27-2019, 11:59 AM
wlou wlou is offline
 
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Standsureoutdoor's advice to nock tune your current batch of arrows is a good one, but I thought I'd just post a few other points of consideration.

Based on your requirements of having to use a near full-length shaft, it will likely be difficult to find a dozen arrows that will all group together. Arrow manufacturers rating straightness in +/- 0.001", 0.003", and 0.006" base that rating only on a 28.0" section of the arrow. That means that even if you buy 0.001" arrows, you might have significant runout on one side of the shaft. If you put the uncut arrow on a spinner, you can often identify which ends are wobbly and chop them off to produce a straighter arrow; unfortunately, with your draw length you won't have much real estate (if any) to do that. Victory VAP shafts come in at an uncut length of 30.5", so that pretty much means you'll be running them full length and won't have any flexibility with cutting off the wobbly ends. Black Eagle supposedly measures the entire length of the shaft (not just a 28.0" section) when grading their arrows, so that may be a consideration for you if you decide to choose based on arrow straightness.

Victory VAPs also use the half-outsert system, which is, in my opinion, probably the most finicky insert system to tune if you intend to use fixed-blade broadheads. With how the insert is mounted, it's easy to introduce runout so it isn't perfectly aligned with the shaft. Add in that you're likely to have extra runout by using a full length shaft and a fixed-blade broadhead might produce significant planing forces.

Spine indexing from Victory is also just an advertising gimmick as well. They utilize the blemish line on the inside of the shaft to mark the spine. While it should work in theory, it often does not correlate with the actual spine of the arrow (as tested on a RAM spine tester).

Spine consistency is another factor to consider. In my opinion, and in my limited testing, Easton is consistently tops for spine consistency. That means they have the tightest tolerances for meeting advertised spine. For example, I've had arrows from other manufacturers rated at a 340 spine actually measure much closer to 400 spine. Easton has been, for me, very good with their consistency and usually within +/- 0.005" of their rating across the dozen.

For the record, I'm not trying to be overly negative towards Victory - I really like their products, but I believe based on your requirements they wouldn't be my first recommendation. You may also consider buying another dozen Easton Powerflights and sorting out so you have a group of arrows that tune together and the remaining can be used for small game, stump-shooting, etc. Easton uncut shafts are 32", so you have a little room to identify which end to cut off. If I had to choose, I would also put the nock on the straighter end of the arrow even if that means having to refletch your arrows to the other side.
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Old 06-27-2019, 12:37 PM
KrisRD KrisRD is offline
 
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I appreciate the input from both of you, lots of great information here. I'm going to start with nock-tuning the arrows to see if I can get the outliers to shoot more consistently and go from there. I think i'll hold off on an arrow upgrade for now as it seems like the gains may be pretty marginal.
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  #21  
Old 07-02-2019, 07:27 AM
Settle&release Settle&release is offline
 
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I have the same bow and I shoot Easton axis 5mm 300 spine and they fly great. Better to go stiff than weak.

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  #22  
Old 07-05-2019, 10:14 PM
CroPhi CroPhi is offline
 
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260 spine with 200 or more grains up front. Look for a mid or lighter weight shaft for better FOC
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