crossbow season?

[blades]

Originally Posted by nekred

What is your dog in this fight?

I am not sure if I feel flattered or insulted about this question......given it is directed at me. If you are wondering about my intentions, or rather the reasoning behind my intentions, how about this-I would like to bow hunt with my dad, and he cannot use a vertical bow. Because of this I got involved with, and get advice from, like minded people, (and there are lots of them) like the Troubridges(Excalibur) As I was already an instructor with AHEIA, and I displayed a better than average knowledge of crossbows, I was asked to aquire some horizontal bows(for AHEIA), and teach a 'crossbow basics' course for AHEIA. To the best of my knowledge I was the first horizontal bow instructor in Alberta.That was about...2 1/2 years ago. Since then I have been putting together and stream- lining a 'crossbow information seminar', and have been guest speaker at quite a few F&G and outdoors meetings. I have always had VERY positive response to my seminar.
As for the other 2 questions(hummm, you asked me 3, not 2...dig dig....grinnn) This is a fine line for me, because I do not want to break any forum rules concerning advertising one's own business.(will you forgive me this once, Rob M?) I run my own hunting accessory business(BV Hunting Supplies) from home...call me a freelance sales rep, if you will. And if someone asks for a crossbow, I will get them one. I deal with Excalibur(being Canadian ,and all that) I also want you to know that the number I sell, you can count on one hand....minus a few fingers. I also believe I addressed this earlier in this thread. My main goal is to educate people on the difference between fact and fiction, concerning the horizontal bow.
Now that you all have my biography, I have to say that I have made up my mind about being singled out to explain my reasons....insulted, covers it.
Any one else want to tell their life story?

[Chevy 454]

Originally Posted by nekred

2000 members
Vote was unanimous at 2007 AGM...

nekred,do you have a number on how many members actually voted on that? I am going to guess that maybe 10 % actally voted.
In reply to Russ about not gaining any "new hunters",only shifting rifle hunters over,I think that is great. What is wrong with letting fellow hunters enjoy a longer season. I would love to get my Dad out with me in bow season.

[Stinky Coyote]

Originally Posted by nekred

What is your dog in this fight?

You know whats super gay about this?

Is that it even has to be a 'fight'.

We can't simply learn and move together the right direction....peacefully.

Its always gotta be a 'fight'.

Super gay.

If you were just to follow the logic and the data on the tool itself....and THEN the results of before and after its inclusion to the other states/provinces that have already moved on this....then its a done deal....progress could be made....we all got another great tool to choose from in a category it fits in......but no....its old school here......you can have your old school imo.

My vote is to get with modern times....that means to move a little quicker on things when its been learned and educated.

Lets not be the stagnant old school type stuck in the last century please.

Data only....it fits. Only reason for a 'fight' is selfishness.....it really boils down to just that.

Blades...keep up the good work.

[blades]

You are a voice in the wilderness, stinky......thank-you for your support.
For any and all interested, I have just recieved 2 reports on crossbow usage , Ohio, and Georgia. If anyone wants a copy, e-mail me. My addy is already posted, not too long ago....somewhere on page 12. Very interesting reading.

[CNP]

Originally Posted by Stinky Coyote

You know whats super gay about this?

Is that it even has to be a 'fight'.

We can't simply learn and move together the right direction....peacefully.

Its always gotta be a 'fight'.

Super gay.

If you were just to follow the logic and the data on the tool itself....and THEN the results of before and after its inclusion to the other states/provinces that have already moved on this....then its a done deal....progress could be made....we all got another great tool to choose from in a category it fits in......but no....its old school here......you can have your old school imo.

My vote is to get with modern times....that means to move a little quicker on things when its been learned and educated.

Lets not be the stagnant old school type stuck in the last century please.

Data only....it fits. Only reason for a 'fight' is selfishness.....it really boils down to just that.

Blades...keep up the good work.

You know what's super gay? The use of the word gay in your aphorism.....and super sized at that .

Your whole diatribe evokes a mind numbing..........resistance is futile mentality. Lets get on the peace train......The fact of the matter is:

There already is a stand alone archery season;

Nothing prevents a person from using a trad/compound bow in the archery season (aside from physical abilities);

Crossbows are not included in the archery season;

Crossbows are legitimate hunting tools in their own right;

Crossbows are permitted in seasons other than archery;

Nothing prevents the use of a crossbow in the rife season (physical abilities aside);

Change is not always good:

Get with the modern times (red herring statement)? Crossbows aren't modern;

Stagnant old school type stuck in the last century (inflammatory red herring statement);

Other states/provinces have changed and others have not. The way you talk it up, AB is a holding up the world. When in fact that is not true. In FACT, provinces/states that permit unrestricted use of the crossbow are in the minority.

On selfishness: Oh, this is an excellent tactic. However, can it be rationalized that the ABA rejects crossbows because everyone in the association, to a person, places their own needs above the needs or desires of others? Or is it the opposite, (the opposite of selfishness is altruism) in that they as an association, acting as a team, are motivated by loyalty to the association. Having the effect of helping the association reach it's stated goals (opposition to crossbow hunting in the archery season). Now, if you reject that, then your lobby(ing) group must be viewed under the same microscope.

Keep at it though...there is a whole industry backing you

[Stinky Coyote]

Note, i copied and pasted this...it probably is missing the header but it said 'Bowhunting Preservation Alliance. The rest below is the copy and paste...

Toll free: 866.266.2776 www.bowhuntingpreservation.org


STATEWIDE INFORMATION PERTINENT TO ARCHERY DEER HUNTING IN OHIO

Year CROSSBOW VERTICAL BOW Total Harvest
No. of Hunters* Harvest % of Harvest Success Rate No. of Hunters* Harvest % of Harvest Success Rate (including firearms)
1981-82 11,000 193 0.4% 1.8% 82,000 3,688 7.7% 4.5% 47,634
1986-87 41,000 2,477 3.7% 6.0% 80,000 3,921 5.8% 4.9% 67,626
1992-93 97,000 10,678 8.5% 11.0% 95,000 8,899 7.1% 9.7% 126,113
2001-02 106,000 24,098 14.6% 22.7% 88,000 17,428 10.6% 19.8% 165,124
*Estimates based on hunter surveys, rounded to the nearest 1000.
Harvest numbers are actual from mandatory check-in

Note – numbers of vertical bow hunters remained steady and probably increased slightly at the same time that nearly 100,000 hunters began using crossbows.

Both vertical bow and crossbow harvests are much more significant management tools now than 20 years ago BUT it’s important to note that the firearms take is still what really controls populations on statewide basis. Archery harvest does have greater impact in specific geographic areas, particularly urban and suburban units where access is limited and the use of silent, lethal equipment at short range is needed.

While crossbow success rates are slightly higher, the success rates for both are really pretty similar over the past 15 or so years.

While the beginning and ending dates for the vertical bow and crossbow seasons in Ohio haven’t changed since 1982, both seasons were actually increased by 17-18, high quality days with the addition of Sunday hunting in 2002.

During a five-year period in the 1990’s, 633 hunting implements used during the commission of wildlife violations were seized by wildlife officers in Ohio. Firearms accounted for 95% (602); vertical bows accounted for 2.7% (17); and crossbows accounted for 2.2% (14).

Since Ohio first legalized crossbows in 1976 through the 2003-04 season, there were 19 accidents involving them. Fifteen of these incidents were self-inflicted. There were 12 longbow incidents during the same period with 7 of these being self-inflicted. When the this accident information is combined with the estimated number of hunting trips by longbow and crossbow hunters in Ohio, the rate of accidents for both types of hunting implements is well below one incident per one million trips for each type of bow. Clearly, hunters are at far higher risk when driving to their hunting spots than when they are in the field with any type of archery equipment.

[Stinky Coyote]

Here's another one....i hope it comes out right.

Harvest of Wildlife in Georgia

2003-2004 Crossbow Discussion

Nick Nicholson, Senior Wildlife Biologist
GA Department of Natural Resources


The number of archery deer hunters and archery deer harvest increased significantly by 11.6% and 44.3%, respectively (Table 1). The 2003-2004 hunting season marked the second year crossbows have been legal for the majority of hunters in Georgia. Previously, only hunters with certified disabilities were permitted to use crossbows. Increased interest in the impact crossbow legalization has on hunter participation, urban deer management, and deer harvest prompted us to further investigate crossbow hunters and hunting. Table 2 compares licensed, resident crossbow hunter numbers and harvest for 2003-2004 to that of other bow types. The number of crossbow hunters and their harvest increased by 55.3% and 168.0%, respectively, over 2002-2003. To put these numbers in perspective, crossbow hunters comprised 24.8% of archery hunters and 9.1% of all hunters. Crossbow harvest comprised 21.8% of archery harvest but only 2.6% of total harvest.

Within our sample, 13.5% of crossbow hunters indicated they previously had used a crossbow under the handicap permit system. Additionally, 31.1% of crossbow hunters indicated they had not hunted with archery equipment prior to using a crossbow. To estimate the impact crossbow hunters have on total harvest we made several assumptions. First, new crossbow hunters who already participated in archery hunting did not increase their harvest by changing from compound/recurve bows to crossbows. The success rate for crossbows (0.49 deer/hunter) is comparable to that of compound bows (0.51 deer/hunter). Our survey indicates that 78.5% of archers use compounds. It is less likely that a traditional archer would switch to a crossbow. Even if they did, the traditional archer success rate (0.46 deer/hunter) is only slightly lower than that of crossbow hunters. There was a significant increase in the number of archery hunters during 2003-2004. Our estimates indicate about 9,300 additional archers. A large part of this increase can be attributed to the estimated 6,900 crossbow hunters who indicated they were new to archery hunting. Additionally, age structure data show a tendency for older archers to use crossbows (Figures 1 - 3). Some of these individuals are likely retired archery hunters who were attracted back into archery hunting by crossbow legalization. If we assume all additional archers hunted with crossbows and the 0.49 deer per hunter harvest rate for crossbows is additive, then about 4,550 additional deer would be attributed to these new archery (crossbow) hunters. It is more likely that the number of additional deer is less than this. The 95% confidence interval for the total statewide harvest (any method) is + 7,818 deer. These data and assumptions suggest that any additional deer harvest attributed to the legalization of crossbows is not significant at a statewide level.

Age structures of 2003-04 crossbow hunters and compound/recurve hunters are shown in Figures 1 and 2, respectively. Older archers are more likely to report hunting with a crossbow (Figure 3). Archers over 50 years old were significantly more likely to report using a crossbow than archers under 50 years old (Prob. = 0.001). There was no significant difference between age classes for crossbow use among hunters new to archery. However, small sample sizes within age classes of new archers limited our ability to measure selectivity for crossbows by age class. Almost half (46.4%) of the new archers using crossbows in our sample (N=56) were over 50 years old. Among all hunters, 34.6% are over 50 years old. The legalization of crossbows brought about 7,000 new archers into the field this past hunting season. This group of hunters and their harvest fall within the bounds of statewide confidence intervals and do not add significantly to statewide estimates of total deer hunters and deer harvest. However, it appears that they did contribute significantly to archery hunter numbers and harvest.

The debate among hunters about legalization of crossbows is reminiscent of a similar debate on the 1977-78 legalization of compound bows. The technological leap from recurve bows to compound bows was much greater than the current move to crossbows. (Crossbows actually are more “primitive” than compound bows, having been around since the fourth century BC.) Crossbows provide the opportunity for older archers to participate in archery deer hunting longer. They also introduce additional hunters into the sport of archery. It is likely that many of them will seek increased archery hunting challenges and change to compound or recurve bows. Recruiting new archers and retaining older ones is a positive event for all hunters.


Table 1. Statewide effort and success for Georgia's licensed, resident, archery deer hunters, 2003 -2004. (36.7% of hunters hunted with archery equipment)


Std. % Change From
Estimate Error 2002-2003

Number of Hunters 89,260 893 +11.6

Harvest (11.9% of tot. hvt.) 47,308 474 +44.3

Days Hunted 1,127,354 11,273 +15.4

Days per Hunter 12.6 ------- +3.2

Days per Deer 23.8 ------- +19.6

Deer per Hunter 0.53 ------- +29.3

Percent Does = 73.5%
Percent Archery Deer Killed with Crossbow = 2.8%


Table 2. Statewide effort and success for Georgia's licensed, resident, archery deer hunters,
by bow type, for 2003 -2004.


Compound Bows Recurve/Long Bows Crossbows
Std. Std. Std.
Estimate Error Estimate Error Estimate Error

Number of Hunters 70,069 995 6,516 59 22,136 330
Percent of Archery Hunters 78.5 7.3 24.8
Percent of All Hunters 28.8 2.7 9.1

Harvest 34,136 717 2,838 31 10,313 197
Percent of Archery Harvest 72.2 6.0 21.8
Percent of Total Harvest 8.6 0.7 2.6

Deer per Hunter 0.51 0.46 0.49

Crossbow hunters using handicap permit prior to legalization 2,988 (13.5%)
Crossbow hunters not previously using archery equipment 6,884 (31.1%)

[Stinky Coyote]

Well....the charts at bottom didn't come out right but you get all the info you need in the writing. The difference is dyck.....not worth all the bullshyt we are creating.........can you see yet?

Its better for overall hunting....its way bigger than the extra couple trophy mule deer that get sacked (probably on draw anyhow) with crossbow because of the draw factor....but wait......that might not be true anyhow.....try and sneak up on a trophy mule deer draggin one of those contraptions with ya....oh and don't miss...cause a reload isn't an option. Blah blah blah....we've been down this road before and you can keep argueing but the fact that its a bow its a bow its a bow doesn't change. Its a bow in the eyes of bowhunting.....its a bow its a bow its a bow bow bow.

See? Super gay.

[Stinky Coyote]

Okay ehntr....here we go.

There already is a stand alone archery season;

When was it formed? And how come it forgot one of the tools waaaaay back then???? No big deal....we'll just add it in now....thankyou very much.

Nothing prevents a person from using a trad/compound bow in the archery season (aside from physical abilities);

Awwwwwe, isn't that swell....so long as were super healthy, big and strong enough to play...then hurray for us! Yaaaaay.....who gives a hoot about the kids and old guys...and the broken folks too? Stick to guns and leave those trophy mule deer to us okay...okay. (super gay)

Crossbows are permitted in seasons other than archery;

Now this is truly super gay! Might as well include spears and slingshots in the same season. Total waste of time! A perfectly good tool will always be way under utilized here....not a match....not a fit.....but it sure could benefit alot of us alot more if it were somewhere else.

Change is not always good:

I agree....but when its this obvious its for the better....then it sure is. This one is a 'no brainer'. I can see open spaces needing a little more grey matter but not this.

Get with the modern times (red herring statement)? Crossbows aren't modern;

Oh get bent.

Stagnant old school type stuck in the last century (inflammatory red herring statement);

Its true. Suck it up.

Other states/provinces have changed and others have not. The way you talk it up, AB is a holding up the world. When in fact that is not true. In FACT, provinces/states that permit unrestricted use of the crossbow are in the minority.

Why do we gotta be last? Why can't we be with the leaders? I'm po'd we didn't start the whole thing...being behind Ontario for anything really sucks you know!

On selfishness: Oh, this is an excellent tactic.

The truth?, an excellent tactic? Of course it is. Probably the best tactic.

Better than all the ones you guys come up with....the mule deer stalk argument.....the you can use shooting sticks argument.....the you must be working for a crossbow company argument....blah blah blah. I'll stick to the truth....its an easy winner for me that way. Everyone else gets to squirm and i can just ride the coat tails of the truth right on down to victory lane. Ha.

However, can it be rationalized that the ABA rejects crossbows because everyone in the association, to a person, places their own needs above the needs or desires of others? Or is it the opposite, (the opposite of selfishness is altruism) in that they as an association, acting as a team, are motivated by loyalty to the association. Having the effect of helping the association reach it's stated goals (opposition to crossbow hunting in the archery season). Now, if you reject that, then your lobby(ing) group must be viewed under the same microscope.

Lobbying group? Your talking to me here....well i guess i'm a group....me, myself, and i. Scrutinize away....i'll let the data speak for itself.

Keep at it though...there is a whole industry backing you

I should probably think about getting paid for this eh? Or maybe i'm just lookin out for myself just in case i get old and broke or my boy gets closer to 12....or the rest of Alberta's hunters for that matter? Nope...i should just think about getting paid....or maybe just think about that one trophy mule deer? Hmmmm.

I'm so torn.

X 2 Stinky Coyote and Blades. Thank-you, and well done!

"Hunting for tomorrow is laudable, but what about hunting for today? Some of us don't have many days left in us to play with."

Sharpedge

[Stinky Coyote]

This was worth hearing again from the Ohio study:

Both vertical bow and crossbow harvests are much more significant management tools now than 20 years ago BUT it’s important to note that the firearms take is still what really controls populations on statewide basis. Archery harvest does have greater impact in specific geographic areas, particularly urban and suburban units where access is limited and the use of silent, lethal equipment at short range is needed.

While crossbow success rates are slightly higher, the success rates for both are really pretty similar over the past 15 or so years.

And this was worth hearing again from the GA study:

The success rate for crossbows (0.49 deer/hunter) is comparable to that of compound bows (0.51 deer/hunter).

The rest of the GA study was excellent. Showed the whole picture in a nutshell.....lets get with the program already! Yeah! Its a BOW!

Ontario Crossbow Facts

1. Crossbows are treated the same as other archery equipment in the Ontario Fish and Wildlife Conservation Act. They can be used in any hunting season that allows the use of bows. The FWC Act requires that crossbows have a draw length of more than 12 inches, and a draw weight no less than 45kg (99lb) when hunting deer or less than 54kg (119lb) when hunting moose or bear.

2. Crossbows do not fall under the federal firearm regulation requirements. Hunters do not need firearm possession licenses for them, and they are not subject to firearm registration.

3. Crossbows are traditional hunting tools that predate the invention of gun-powder or guns. They are generally no more, or less, efficient than other archery equipment -- they shoot an arrow generally the same distance, with about the same speed, as long bows or compound bows. (Downrange energy is determined by draw weight and draw length. Crossbows have shorter draw lengths (less energy) offset by higher draw weights (more energy).

4. Neophyte bowhunters are better to start with a cross-bow, unless they are prepared to invest 100's of hours of regular practice into shooting a long-bow consistently accurately. New hunters can become competent marksmen with a cross-bow in less than 1/2 the time -- from a conservation point of view we advocate mandatory bowhunter education, but recognize that it is better to have new proficient crossbow hunters in the field than inadequately practiced new long-bow hunters in the field.

5. Many bowhunters who start with a crossbow, will later pick up long-bows as well.

6. Crossbows are particularly well suited to very young hunters, very elderly hunters or hunters with disabilities that make the sustained draw of a long-bow difficult or impossible. Young apprentice hunters can also use a crossbow responsibly under the supervision of an adult to bow hunt big game where they would not be able to achieve the necessary draw to responsibly hunt big game with a long bow. (The FWC Act requires minimum long bow draw weights of 40 and 49 lb, respectively for deer and moose/bear.)

7. Ontario Big game hunting has increased consistently over the last 15 years. Growth in archery hunting is particularly strong, and crossbow popularity is a big part of this growth. New archery hunting seasons have been created in Ontario for moose and deer recently.

Source: Ed Reid. Ontario Federation of Anglers and Hunters Wildlife Biologist.

Respectfully submitted,

Sharpedge

[nekred]

The OHIO and Georgia studies are invalid as they do not allow, nor ever have allowed Crossbows in their rfle season.

Alberta has a general season. Crossbow users you have a season.

if you want a seperate season lobby for your own. then after a small group of you have fought for it hard and gained it watch the masses pour in and seehow you feel! Who know I may be one!.. I have nothing against crossbows personally!... In fact they are kind of cool! from taking the crossbow info course at AHEIA!....which provided good information regarding crossbows and removed misconceptions I had!

Blades: You are a crossbow distributor dealer, there is an interest!... the dog in this fight was not meant to be inflammatory!...just an illustration!

Stinky: I already answered you, I guarantee that when the ABAA lobbied for the season the crossbow was not forgotten it was deliberatley excluded because it did not fit with the vision then, nor does it today.

Ontario and BC made their decision!.... Alberta has made theirs.... there is another option if you want to use a crossbow in archery season!

Bottom line solution: form your own association and get at er!.... use the inormation you have and lobby the government the way the ABAA did years ago!

Good Luck!

[MathewsArcher]

No matter how big the font use to myself and many others a crossbow is not a bow as it cannot be draw and held with muscle power.

[blades]

Originally Posted by nekred

from taking the crossbow info course at AHEIA!....which provided good information regarding crossbows

[

I am curious to know where, when and who presented this course you took. Good for you for attending something like this....

[nekred]

In Alford lake!....from you

[blades]

Originally Posted by nekred

In Alford lake!....from you

LOL.....thought so! So what you attended,...technically,....was the 'crossbow basics course'. May I ask your name, so I can try to put a face to you? My 'Crossbow Information Seminar' is different in that it is not a 'how to' , and more of a history and practical information lesson, as well as a comparison to the vertical bow. Did you get to do the 3D course?
I must say that I am puzzled on how you used a horizontal bow, and still cannot see it as archery......or at least another option for hunters that want to fling arrows.

[nekred]

Carefully look at my posts!

I do not state what you assume is the regular anti-crossbow sentiment.

My two points are in my original post look at them carefully.

I have an open mind and have explored this from all sides and in the end it comes down to what I posted in my original post in this thread!.

One is the significant difference. the draw lock.
the other is the significant result of loss in existing bowhunting opportunities.

Crossbows have a season.

If you want special season for them then lobby for it because the recognised archery association will not and they have lobbied for the archery season that excludes crossbows.

[blades]

It is becoming very obvious to me that we do agree on some points , and will never come together on other points,.....soooo, could you and I agree to disagree on these points and call a truce?

[Stinky Coyote]

nekred....got enough 'make work' projects already, as i suppose we all do....and even as a group of hunters we've got better things to deal with than this tiny little issue (open spaces, interim harvest rights etc. etc.) but not including the crossbow where it fits NOW THAT WE ALL KNOW BETTER.....is pretty silly really

like i said before....gotta make a big fight about it first....and for not one single good reason either...we just like to makes things hard on ourselves for kicks...we can't agree and move as one on anything and i suppose that will be our doom in the end right?(even when all the data and logic works ) you know...attack each other from within over basically every single tiny aspect of what our sports entail?.....yeah....here we have a shoe in, no brainer, and still....we do the same dang thing.....sooooo gay

[nekred]

Blades and Stinky Coyote and others.

We have differences on opinion but I have never excluded crossbows or said they were not a valid hunting tool.

Looking at the reality of the situation the ABA has lobbied for the current archery seasons and have from their inception excluded crossbows. admittedly selfish! Trying to get current ABA members to accept a crossbow especially with the potential ramifications on the archery season is like trying to push a rope.

I have made a suggestion for a solution with forming a crossbow association and everyone uses the same excuse. They don't have time. Is this not also selfish?

I see people who are connected to the crossbow industry wanting to piggyback on the existing archery seasons for good business reasons. Which is also selfish.

Nothing wrong with self interest, it drives capitalism! It is when seperate interests collide that there is conflict.

We can agree to disagree! The chances of you changing my mind is slim, and vice versa!

[CNP]

including the crossbow where it fits NOW THAT WE ALL KNOW BETTER.....is pretty silly really

My ears hurt from listening to the blast from the caps lol......and my brain hurts from the "now that we all know better" rhetoric. That's an NDP tactic...keep repeating the same lines and it might come true no matter how inacurate it is. Crossbows are already included in a season. Want a good analogy...the Anglican Church debacle...

[Stinky Coyote]

Originally Posted by nekred

Nothing wrong with self interest, it drives capitalism! It is when seperate interests collide that there is conflict.

This should be in ALL hunters 'self interest'. Nobody loses, cept maybe the odd trophy mule deer bow hunter.

ehuntr...the big letters for you buddy

[Stinky Coyote]

Originally Posted by ehntr

Crossbows are already included in a season. Want a good analogy...the Anglican Church debacle...

putting the crossbow in with the guns is like putting the lettuce in the meat department at the grocery store

[Stinky Coyote]

a new one for today

putting crossbows in with the guns is like putting teets on a boar.....useless

see you tomorrow with another one

[QUOTE=nekred;114649]Blades and Stinky Coyote and others.

"We have differences on opinion but I have never excluded crossbows or said they were not a valid hunting tool."

You might not have excluded crossbows, but "others" have. And if examined properly, you will find that the crossbow is the only commonly available, and proven, hunting tool that meets ALL the criterion demanded of a weapon to be used in the proximity of other people and domestic livestock. I challenge you to prove otherwise. (Efficient ease of use by the majority, cannot be dismissed in this criteria.)

"Looking at the reality of the situation the ABA has lobbied for the current archery seasons and have from their inception excluded crossbows."

Alberta bowhunters have been more fortunate than others. And not because of past lobbying entirely either. Much of what Alberta bowhunters enjoy today came about because firearms were about to banned altogether in specific WMUs and the bowhunters became the de-facto tools of wildlife managers; who at the time were uniformed, or simply were against crossbows for mistaken reasons. Poaching being but one myth that refuses to go away.

"admittedly selfish! Trying to get current ABA members to accept a crossbow"

Selfish is the wrong word. Inconsiderate of the needs of "others" is more accurate. Not even the old bowhunters who cannot use their beloved long bows are being considered. Nor are the youth hunters, whom we desperately need to recruit, being considered. This egotistical attitude was apparently demonstrated at a recent past Alberta Fish and Game Conference.

"especially with the potential ramifications on the archery season is like trying to push a rope."

What ramifications? Surely you don't believe that the contradictory statistics provided elsewhere in this thread are all lies? When archery seasons fail to meet managements' objectives. They bypass "others" in favor of rifles. Now that's what I call a ramification.

"I have made a suggestion for a solution with forming a crossbow association and everyone uses the same excuse. They don't have time. Is this not also selfish?"

Why oh why, oh why, do we need yet another association? We already have an association. It's called the brotherhood (and sisterhood) of hunters. Besides that, isn't the AFGA the voice of hunters? Since 1908 in fact! One big fire is what we need, not lots of little ones that are easily extinguished by "those" who would ban bowhunting in any form. Don't believe me? Then try bowhunting in "other" parts of the world where "others" have been economical with the truth.

"I see people who are connected to the crossbow industry wanting to piggyback on the existing archery seasons for good business reasons. Which is also selfish."

And I suggest that we all use self bows and nothing but biodegradable arrows too. And no fibreglass. No Dacron. No epoxies. No aircraft spec aluminum. No plastics. Need I go on?

"Nothing wrong with self interest, it drives capitalism! It is when seperate interests collide that there is conflict."

Conflict. A clashing of opposed interests. I intend to kill an animal with a sharp arrowhead. What is your intent?

"We can agree to disagree! The chances of you changing my mind is slim, and vice versa!"

And when you are unable to string your bow and draw your arrow to its head, because your cholesterol is high and you are on Statin drugs which bring even more pain to your old muscles and joints; or your naturally weaker child is unable to draw and hold his or her first hunting bow of 40 lbs regulated draw weight. You'll change your mind. Just like thousands of enlightened "others" have changed theirs.

With respect to others,

Sharpedge

[capthook]

Hello all...

I have been hunting with a crossbow in Alberta since 1982 under the provision of the Wildlife Act that allows the use of a crossbow by persons with a disability that precludes the use of more traditional archery equipment. I could wade in on the debate about the advantages or lack thereof of crossbows when compared to other bows but that will have to wait... Suffice it to say that it has not been my impression that use of a crossbow can ever mitigate the lack of skill on behalf of the hunter...

As for the perceived conflict with traditional archers, while I count many archers among my friends, I find them on the whole to be elitist, self-congratulatory, and down-right unreasonable... If you doubt me, try to use a crossbow at any archery range in Alberta 20 years ago and see how you were treated... Has that changed in 2008 - I don't know - I've never been back...

As far as I'm concerned, all hunters who chose to use crossbows should be allowed to hunt during all of the regular archery seasons... full stop

Capthook

[Stinky Coyote]

Originally Posted by capthook

As for the perceived conflict with traditional archers, while I count many archers among my friends, I find them on the whole to be elitist, self-congratulatory, and down-right unreasonable... If you doubt me, try to use a crossbow at any archery range in Alberta 20 years ago and see how you were treated... Has that changed in 2008 -

Capthook

Its a slow process, opening minds is not an easy thing to do on bigger scale. As a 'whole' it probably still is the way you have it pinned but i think things are 'starting' to change for the better as people are learning more about the tool itself (for this situation) and also people are learning more about standing together on matters of our outdoor pursuits rather than being so easy to send certain aspects of our activities to slaughter because its not something we may have interest in at the time, and recognizing that being divided and conqured hurts us 'ALL'. Its coming but not soon enough imo....but i'm an optimist so thats my 'big picture' gut feeling for you. On this subject i think we are starting to realize that not having the option to the crossbow where it fits is ultimately hurting us all in the end....putting this tool where fits is an easy no brainer in my eyes and it simply comes down to a selfishness within us that is holding us back on such an apparently easy little move that benefits all hunters/would be hunters in Alberta.

Have a good one.

[Chung66]

Shouldn't this thread belong in the Archery Discussion?

[Stinky Coyote]

Originally Posted by Chung66

Shouldn't this thread belong in the Archery Discussion?

no way man, this is a 'hunters' matter