Road allowances between private land.

TBark · #1 12-02-2011, 09:53 PM

Further to bear-scats post on someone shooting off his property, I have a question, or interpretation on road allowances along or between peoples property.

We saw a truck on 3 different occasions last month drive along our fence line checking out our field, and when we aren't there to see him, we see the tracks turning around on our field edge. Seems to be the same time in the AM. Neighbor to the north of the fence is posted and so are we, so to avoid a conflict, we just stayed in our stands, 400 yds away is too far to try and approach and question the guy anyway, so on the one hand you figure no harm in a guy looking, but then you have to ask what the guy would do if he saw an animal tempting him to shoot.
When we bought the quarter a yr back, county map shows road allowance to the first neighbors land which is a rig road, rig road turns into neighbors quarter, then no more road, just our tracks in the grass apprx 300 yds along our fence to the end of the field, then 500 more yds to our camp, through some bush, out of sight. Likely people see a worn trail or a cattle trail and figure it's a roadway.

So my question is...
If the county map shows allowances every 2 miles N/S and every mile E/W, can people travel / hunt along these 20 meter wide allowances even if these are not roads, or roadways ?
We are talking now about fencing beyond the maintained rig road that views the end of our field & access's our camp.
One could argue they would want to use the allowance to access Crown land which is 3 miles beyond our camp, but this cannot be readily accessed due to 3 steep ridges & ravines. 2 miles north is a common used roadway and quad trail into crown land.
So what is the road allowance for anyways ?
Allows the county to build a road for public access ? But what if no road exists ?

TBark

rottie · #2 12-02-2011, 10:01 PM

A far as I know a road allowance wether developed or not is still crown land. I some cases undeveloped road allowances have been sold to adjoining landowners. If not they are still open to public use. I dont think you can block it if it can be used to access crown land
If I remember right from when I surveyed the standard road allowance is 66 ft wide.

Check with your county land division they should have some better answers

Hope this helps

Ian

coreya3212 · #3 12-02-2011, 10:01 PM

My wifes family in mountain view county has land on both sides of a road allowance where there is no road. It is our understanding that it is public land that we cannot block access to. People may go on that allowance, however I don't think they are allowed to shoot off of said allowance as it is county land, not crown land ? I am not positive on the shooting part. Have to be really ballsy to shoot a animal on the twenty meters of allowance considering where he might fall...

Ps. Just seen Rotties post, so maybe they are crown.

Knotter · #4 12-02-2011, 10:04 PM

Road allowances are public land including those that are undeveloped. I'm sure an Alberta Land Surveyor will chime in on this. The existence of road allowances goes back to laws related to water access etc.

Kitscoty Bear Slayer(KBS) · #5 12-02-2011, 10:09 PM

I have seen road allowances fenced for livestock and I believe road allowances are for future development.If no road exists it is still open for future development

elkhunter11 · #6 12-02-2011, 10:14 PM

Quote:

I have seen road allowances fenced for livestock and I believe road allowances are for future development.

Sometimes they are fenced or cropped legally, and sometimes illegally. Without checking with the county office, you won't know for sure.

coreya3212 · #7 12-02-2011, 10:20 PM

Yes, they can usually be leased from the county for ag use. I think mountain view even lists the per acre lease rate on there website.

Douglas N · #8 12-02-2011, 10:23 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by elkhunter11

Sometimes they are fenced or cropped legally, and sometimes illegally. Without checking with the county office, you won't know for sure.

Put a fence up along your property line. Folks can drive the road allowance and look all they want. If you have it fenced, at least there's a visual deterrant to trespassers.

Kitscoty Bear Slayer(KBS) · #9 12-02-2011, 10:25 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by elkhunter11

Sometimes they are fenced or cropped legally, and sometimes illegally. Without checking with the county office, you won't know for sure.

x2 no harm fencing or cropping if the road goes nowhere anyway.
Just sayin

Elkaholic6 · #10 12-02-2011, 10:27 PM

From my understanding, if both land owners on that road allowance agree to gate it, you can go to the County/MD and ask for permission to put up a gate.

elkhunter11 · #11 12-02-2011, 10:35 PM

Quote:

Put a fence up along your property line. Folks can drive the road allowance and look all they want. If you have it fenced, at least there's a visual deterrant to trespassers.

I was referring to putting a fence across the road allowance.

Quote:

x2 no harm fencing or cropping if the road goes nowhere anyway.
Just sayin

But if you decide to do either or both without doing it through legal means, don't get upset if someone cuts the fence or drives on your crop.

remmy300 · #12 12-02-2011, 10:40 PM

Occasionally in my line of work we run into landowners that rent the undeveloped road allowance. If the landowner rents the road allowance from a particular county, that landowner can control who enters. If its undeveloped and no one rents, then anyone can enter. I don't know how anyone can consider shooting off a undeveloped road allowance. You better drop whatever in it's tracks on that road allowance. It's just an avenue for hunters with no permission to try and shoot an animal.

Douglas N · #13 12-02-2011, 10:41 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by elkhunter11

I was referring to putting a fence across the road allowance.

But if you decide to do either or both without doing it through legal means, don't get upset if someone cuts the fence or drives on your crop.

That's exactly why I'd fence on my property line. Leave the road allowance for driving.

Legal or not, it would be an anomaly to have "permission" to fence off or across a road allowance. Many would assume it was fenced illegally and be within their rights to drop a gate or cut a fence.

Kitscoty Bear Slayer(KBS) · #14 12-02-2011, 10:44 PM

But if you decide to do either or both without doing it through legal means, don't get upset if someone cuts the fence or drives on your crop.[/QUOTE]

Why would you drive there or cut the fence if the road goes nowhere??
I know alot of people that would get upset if you cut the fence or drove on the crop, especially on a road that goes nowhere.

elkhunter11 · #15 12-02-2011, 11:12 PM

Quote:

Why would you drive there or cut the fence if the road goes nowhere??
I know alot of people that would get upset if you cut the fence or drove on the crop, especially on a road that goes nowhere.

Why is not your business, it is the business of the person who chooses to drive there. Perhaps he will decide to ride that undeveloped road allowance on his atv. If you fence across that road allowance, or crop it illegally, you can get as upset as you choose if someone cuts that fence or drives on the crop, but you don't have a leg to stand on legally.

Acesneights · #16 12-02-2011, 11:45 PM

Not to be an a__ but if I drive down a road allowance and shoot a deer that jumps out in front of me presumingly I'm out of my truck and I hit him and he runs onto your land and dies.then I will come and ask you for permission to get my animal off your land and if you deny me access then I will call fish and game and they will assist me in the recovery of my animal.Just for arguementitive sake.However in saying that, that is half of the problem why certain landowners have a problem with hunters.Just throwing that out there.

Lefty-Canuck · #17 12-02-2011, 11:49 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by bdarling

Not to be an a__ but if I drive down a road allowance and shoot a deer that jumps out in front of me presumingly I'm out of my truck and I hit him and he runs onto your land and dies.then I will come and ask you for permission to get my animal off your land and if you deny me access then I will call fish and game and they will assist me in the recovery of my animal.Just for arguementitive sake.However in saying that, that is half of the problem why certain landowners have a problem with hunters.Just throwing that out there.

If the landowner denies access to his private land...even in the case to retreive dead or wounded game...nothing you or F&W can do about it...sadly. They can ask but if the landowner is dead set against it nothing you can legally do.

LC

elkhunter11 · #18 12-03-2011, 12:17 AM

Quote:

Not to be an a__ but if I drive down a road allowance and shoot a deer that jumps out in front of me presumingly I'm out of my truck and I hit him and he runs onto your land and dies.then I will come and ask you for permission to get my animal off your land and if you deny me access then I will call fish and game and they will assist me in the recovery of my animal.Just for arguementitive sake.However in saying that, that is half of the problem why certain landowners have a problem with hunters.Just throwing that out there.

I have to wonder where people get the idea that all that have to do is call F&W, and they will come and retrieve the animal. If the landowner refuses to grant permission, F&W, can't enter the land to retrieve the animal.

HunterDave · #19 12-03-2011, 12:18 AM

I hunted on land this year that had a road allowance that was all grown in to the north of the property. One landowner has put a fence gate in (just wire, not locked) to the entrance of it from the highway and either side of the allowance is fenced. If someone really wanted to, they could drive or walk up the road allowance and the landowners on either side wouldn't have a legal leg to stand on as far as getting them charged with trespassing.......because they aren't. There's no reason for anyone to go in there but I'm just sayin'.

Acesneights · #20 12-03-2011, 01:52 AM

Legally if it goes that far the landowner "could" be charged with the waste of an animal. However for the average fish cop it's not worth the hassle. If the landowner had a tag and tagged the animal then took it as his own that would be the only way it would hold up if the hunter took it to court.sorry.lefty-cunuck, elkhunter11 if I hit a soft spot you must be landowners, as am I. Just creating conversation.I have had a landowner up north call the fish cops on me for hunting on a road allowance which has a power line on it more than once and every time there is nothing the landowner can do.The f&w tell him to quit wasting there time and I go on my way.I have shot three whitetail bucks on that line.every time dropping the deer in there tracks nod if you look at my profile you will see a whitetail I shot on that road allowance.it was worth all the hassle.

TBark · #21 12-03-2011, 02:04 AM

I guess that's the problem, people can legally be there, but they have no reasonable reason to be there, hunt on a 20 meter strip of land, c'mon.
Like a few years back, RC's were asking hunters approaching the Water Valley area, the dead-end roads, all private, where they were going, if they said they were hunting, they were asked which property, if they could not give them an answer, they turned them around. But they could have pointed to a 20 meter allowance strip right, nope, not in this case. Should not be allowed in any case between private land, IMO. We can't blanket all scenarios as one I guess, circumstances can differ. But the question "Where does the allowance go" does play a part in allowing reasonable public access. Is it a route to crown land ?On paper the allowance does not end, can go for 100 miles, but physically, where does it go and where does reasonable access end, the physical landscape.

A buddy just emailed me and said he did contact the County earlier in Nov. The County says they will look at a request to allow us to fence the approach to our camp, we will need to justify this and if granted notice will need to be given to the neighbor to our south if fence or gate is to be locked.
He says he was given the guidelines to the process, some questions to answer like mentioned above, is there a likelihood of the county building a roadway in the future ? Physical landscape is considdered. Is it a reasonable access point to crown land ?
We will likely proceed with this. Ask yourselves, if you had people standing at your fence of your home peering into your windows, wouldn't you go out and ask them to leave, or tell them to move on ?

TBark

Jimboy · #22 12-03-2011, 05:33 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by TBark

I guess that's the problem, people can legally be there, but they have no reasonable reason to be there, hunt on a 20 meter strip of land, c'mon.
Like a few years back, RC's were asking hunters approaching the Water Valley area, the dead-end roads, all private, where they were going, if they said they were hunting, they were asked which property, if they could not give them an answer, they turned them around. But they could have pointed to a 20 meter allowance strip right, nope, not in this case. Should not be allowed in any case between private land, IMO. We can't blanket all scenarios as one I guess, circumstances can differ. But the question "Where does the allowance go" does play a part in allowing reasonable public access. Is it a route to crown land ?On paper the allowance does not end, can go for 100 miles, but physically, where does it go and where does reasonable access end, the physical landscape.

A buddy just emailed me and said he did contact the County earlier in Nov. The County says they will look at a request to allow us to fence the approach to our camp, we will need to justify this and if granted notice will need to be given to the neighbor to our south if fence or gate is to be locked.
He says he was given the guidelines to the process, some questions to answer like mentioned above, is there a likelihood of the county building a roadway in the future ? Physical landscape is considdered. Is it a reasonable access point to crown land ?
We will likely proceed with this. Ask yourselves, if you had people standing at your fence of your home peering into your windows, wouldn't you go out and ask them to leave, or tell them to move on ?

TBark

A truck driving down the road allowance next to your property is not peering in your windows , poor poor anology, here that crap all the time.

Mxyzptik · #23 12-03-2011, 06:17 AM

Landowners have been fencing road allowances for years with and without county permission. In most cases it serves as a barrier to the rest of us to get access to crown land.

The OP said earlier that the crown land is 3 miles away past a couple of ravines.

What about upland hunting, shouldn't someone be allowed to walk that road allowance with his shotgun and shot a few grouse ?

IMO , landowners should not be assisted by county governments to " create " private access to public lands by blocking off the accesses, period. There are instance in province where this same scenario exists and blocks access to small fishing bearing lakes.

Dale S · #24 12-03-2011, 06:47 AM

A road allowance has to be registerd with the Alberta gov.then it is puplic. Undeveloped roads are not registered and under the stewertship of the land owners and they can keep the puplic out.Road allowances are 100' they use to be 66' and some still are.You can'nt fence off a registerd road allowance.

greywolf · #25 12-03-2011, 06:50 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Lefty-Canuck

If the landowner denies access to his private land...even in the case to retreive dead or wounded game...nothing you or F&W can do about it...sadly. They can ask but if the landowner is dead set against it nothing you can legally do.

LC

I thought F&W had the power to enter the property for retrieval, or has that law changed?????

Dark · #26 12-03-2011, 07:37 AM

Hi T Bark,

We have a section very close to you. I to have the same problem except I own the land on both sides of the dead end road that leads to our back quarter and stops at our field. We have no less than 4 trucks a morning during Nov. drive the road to our field. I don't know what their plan is you can't shoot down the road and its my land for a mile on each side of the road.

I know these are the same trucks day after day because I have chatted with a few of them from year to year. I don't get upset with them I just adapt and overcome. My plan is to lease the road allowance since it is my land on the sides and at the end and fence it.

Orginally I never bought the quarter at the end of the road from the neighbor because he allowed anybody to hunt there, which I thought was great and we could hunt here also. But after 2 years of parking my truck on the dead end road so anyone coming in could see that the field was already occupied, they would still drive by my truck drive by me in my stand and proceed to drive the edge of the field. I know they have as much right to hunt there as me, but the differance is I WAS RAISED WITH RESPECT. I would never hunt a quarter that had a truck sitting at the entrance even if I had permission.
So now the land is posted and I laugh at the *****holes when I sit in my stand.
I can't wait to see thier faces when the fence goes up across the road.

Dark · #27 12-03-2011, 07:39 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Dago

A road allowance has to be registerd with the Alberta gov.then it is puplic. Undeveloped roads are not registered and under the stewertship of the land owners and they can keep the puplic out.Road allowances are 100' they use to be 66' and some still are.You can'nt fence off a registerd road allowance.

How do you find out if it's registered?

bear-scat · #28 12-03-2011, 07:56 AM

Ya like how many of these people are only hunting a 66' or 100' strip only....you know whats going to happen if hogdaddy is on the other side of the fence ...the bullets will fly....they will be dragging or driving & looking over their shoulder......

What a way to hunt..looking over your shoulder so you don't get caught, not very ethical, can't be very satisfying. So what if you scored a wall hanger.

Dark · #29 12-03-2011, 08:12 AM

"Ya like how many of these people are only hunting a 66' or 100' strip only....you know whats going to happen if hogdaddy is on the other side of the fence ...the bullets will fly....they will be dragging or driving & looking over their shoulder......"

x2

rottie · #30 12-03-2011, 08:18 AM

Concerning big game hunting I feel the same as yourself, a road right of way is not the best spot. But how about walking the road allowance for upland game,is this not allowed ?