Why the 223 Rem should be a legal big game round

[Pathfinder76]

Originally Posted by Xbolt7mm

Then you would be wrong! I’m certain that most who are poo pooing them do so because the have used them and have a bit of respect for the animals. Soon someone here will say its a fine round for moose and elk with a well built bullet and proper placement. The same garbage they always say, because they always use the best bullets and put them exactly were they need to every time. I’m also sure that most adults realize that because something is not illegal it doesnt make it correct morally or humanely. If you cant shoot anything bigger than that then keep practicing until you mature enough to use a cartridge that shows enough respect for an animal to humanely kill it.

Seriously? This is getting stupid.

[Xbolt7mm]

Originally Posted by chuck

Seriously? This is getting stupid.

Why,,,,because your right and im wrong , what makes it stupid? Because it goes against your opinion. Give your 6mm back to your wife

[Pathfinder76]

Originally Posted by Xbolt7mm

Re read my post and try to not compare a 6mm with a 223

News flash. A 45gr 22 caliber expanding bullet at 3300 FPS will out penetrate a 55 gr 6mm bullet of the same construction going 4K all day long. ALL day long. But I’m not going to start arguing bullet construction and terminal ballistics. I pick bullet construction based on target regardless of what cartridge I’m shooting and can do the same with the 223.

[Pathfinder76]

Originally Posted by Xbolt7mm

Why,,,,because your right and im wrong , what makes it stupid? Because it goes against your opinion. Give your 6mm back to your wife

My wife is not part of this discussion and can handle a rifle just fine thanks.

[fordtruckin]

Originally Posted by Xbolt7mm

Why,,,,because your right and im wrong , what makes it stupid? Because it goes against your opinion. Give your 6mm back to your wife

Gawd what a waste of time this has become. I’d you don’t want to use one because you aren’t able to do so ethically or accurately then don’t. Rely on your 340 weatherby mag To kill your 100# deer.

[catnthehat]

Originally Posted by Xbolt7mm

So a 223 and a 22-250 are quite susceptible to issues with barrel twist and the majority of them have difficultys stabilizing the 60 grain partitions unless you have a 9 twist which most dont. So shooting the 60 out of the long twist barrels does certainly have the strong possibility of not stabilizing the longer bullet and especially at the longer distances. The 60 partition is too small and most certainly the 45 grain bullets would also be used if the cartridge was legal as they work better with the longer twist barrels. If you guys think its ok to shoot big game animals with a 45 grain bullet from any cartridge then you have no respect at all for the animal

You would be very surprised if you took a look to see just how many .233's are made with a 1:9 twist these days .
I cannot for the life of me figure out how you can say they are a poor choice when they are legally used with great effect elsewhere .
I am done here you win this absolutely rediculous argument - which is all this thread has become .
Cat

[PartTimeHunter]

Originally Posted by Xbolt7mm

Why,,,,because your right and im wrong , what makes it stupid? Because it goes against your opinion. Give your 6mm back to your wife

Wow. Are you a troll? Do you have an answer for the fact that the 223 has/is being used successfully in several provinces and states for many years? Or are you just here to troll and ignore facts other than those of your opinion? The 223 works fine within it's limitations. Just as you wouldn't take your lever 30-30 out for a long range hunt you wouldn't take a 223. You have to use the tools you have appropriately and within their limitations.

[calgarychef]

In the Uk the .223 is a very popular round and it kills deer dead.

[rem338win]

Originally Posted by last minute

well that a loaded question who’s to say the 12 year old wouldn’t make the same mistake as the 12 year old who shoots "His" 270 as you put it in the guts of the deer cause "He "closes his eyes to me it’s a week analogue I don’t buy it try again.

Seen and been for the .22 CF class killing deer and black bears. Used within 99% of the ranged anyone kills deer at they work great.

AB pulls their head out and I'd build a fast twist 22-250 tomorrow and use it to hunt deer.

[Beeman3]

As was said earlier the 22 cal seems to kill deer in MB and BC. I am sure the deer in Alberta are not bullet proof. I am in Manitoba and know a few guys that hunt with 22-250. The 223 with the right bullet and shot placement will kill a deer all day long. I never killed a deer with my 22-284. But a 80 gr Berger at 3600 fps will kill even if it is 22 caliber. Great shooting by your kids with the 223. I can see why the adults wouldn't try to hit the target.

[Rancid Crabtree]

Originally Posted by chuck

In the first picture my daughter is hitting a 12” target repeatedly at 550 yds.

I can say for sure she's much more effective with the 223 than I was at her age staggering around hoisting a lee enfield 303. Admittedly my first deer just got caught in the fire fight.

I agree the laws are nuts considering the success of the 223 and 22-250 on deer in many states.

Good on her.

[Stinky Coyote]

I guess i'll be the s.d. guy again...

It can't really be argued against as the cartridge, like all cartridges, will kill fine within it's limitations. The .223 or .22-250 running the lightweight varmint bullets at high speeds through slow twist barrels will make awful big game set-ups. Running heavier for caliber bullets with appropriate/comparable s.d.'s to other big game bullets we are familiar with....will do just fine. As evidenced by the bazillions of deer etc. already killed with these cartridges.

Again, this is going to come down to two main things with a third being an obvious we shouldn't even have to mention.

1. S.d.
2. Impact velocity

You get those proper for game intended then you're gtg.

3. Bullet construction

Appropriate for game intended, controlled expansion for big game, or frangible for the little stuff. Going to assume anyone going after big game with a .223 will know not to use the 40 gr v-max load. But just in case rules 1 and 2 aren't followed....then at least rule 3 is still mentioned.

Using say Chuck Hawks sectional density guide for different class size animals then he states that s.d. above .200 is where you need to be for class 2 size game (deer etc. 50-300 lbs) with the average of a cross selection of bullets shown being .23.

A 75 grain .224 bullet is .228 where 75 grain .243 bullet is only .181

An 88 gr .224 bullet is .251! where a 100 gr .243 bullet is only .242

Penetration will be directly related to s.d./impact velocity(appropriate bullet construction a given).

You can trust the numbers, you don't have much choice really as the countless dead animals bear it out.

Most cartridges we use developed in a time long before we understood s.d. so have similar ratios and therefore similar s.d. ranges within the different calibers. The 6.5mm class for some reason have unusually high s.d.'s as also acknowledged by Craig Boddington.

So when you apply the 'heavy for caliber' rule to just about any caliber/cartridge you get s.d.'s that can penetrate much deeper than most realize.

[Pathfinder76]

When Chuck Hawks enters the discussion I know people are grasping at straws.

And just so everyone is aware, she is shooting 75gr bullets in a 1-8 twist barrel.

[Stinky Coyote]

lol, i know but his dang tables put a lot of the s.d. info in one place, i'm not a fan either haha, except he does get some usable data into easy to google/reference links, mostly just tune the rest out

https://www.chuckhawks.com/sd.htm

use the s.d. data to compare what you know and forget the source of the link...that data is good, and in reality the range of s.d. to game recommendation is also sound

[Stinky Coyote]

She is shooting s.d. .214 (appropriate for class 2 game), and knowing you the bullets will be of controlled expansion construction(if intended for big game hunting), likely towards the 'delayed' end of the spectrum...and all that matters after that is landing within appropriate impact velocities for the bullet to do it's job....great choice really, just too bad not legal in this province.

I'm going 6.5 Grendel route because of that. But admit, the recoil push of the 6.5 Grendel's 123 gr pills makes it feel every bit as stong as a .243's sharper more snappy recoil. It was more than i thought it would be but still should be great for starting things out and never need more really.

The .224 valkyrie would be a dynamite choice as a modern take on this caliber with long for caliber bullets, fast twist barrels, fit in platforms/magazines correctly. It's the same formula as being done by the 6.5 grendel, 6.5 creedmoor, 6.5 prc....but for the .224 cal fans. It will cross over to hunting better than most .223/.22-250's because of those high s.d. bullets.

[Stinky Coyote]

And because i was curious to know, despite not being able to hunt with a .224 here, i did look to compare the Grendel to the new Valkyrie just to see how it stacked up.

The Grendel holds up really well. And even though i'm not convinced there will be much difference between 90 and 123 grains with adequate s.d.'s there's something more appealing about a 123 gr 6.5mm pill over the .224 90 grain pill. So the Grendel wins out for me within this platform/recoil energy range. Will be tough to top.

https://www.thefirearmblog.com/blog/...-calibers-025/

If Alberta legalizes .224 cartridges then the valkyrie will dominate the ar length cartridge class no doubt.

[Salavee]

Originally Posted by chuck

Do you really think that the 17 and 223 are the same?

These days? The 223 has been a legal big game round all over North America for years. And I would suggest it’s a more viable option today than it was 30 years ago.

Im convinced that those poo pooing the 223 as a viable option have actually never shot the round.

Chuck ... you were beating on this same drum on this same forum in 2008 . The .223 is still not legal for hunting Big Game in Alberta .. no matter who may be shooting it or what bullet they are using. Common sense prevails !

[Pathfinder76]

Originally Posted by Salavee

Chuck ... you were beating on this same drum on this same forum in 2008 . The .223 is still not legal for hunting Big Game in Alberta .. no matter who may be shooting it or what bullet they are using. Common sense prevails !

Common sense prevails in Alberta’s game management? Who exactly do you think you are kidding?

[Salavee]

Originally Posted by chuck

Common sense prevails in Alberta’s game management? Who exactly do you think you are kidding?

Ballistic and terminal efficiency and Game Mgmt. don't belong in the same sentence but unsatisfactory AB Game management and promoting the .223 as a BG cartridge probably do. The exception being that one is a bit more out of line than the other. The same types are pushing both agendas... trying to make more with less and actually believing they can pull it off. No kidding !

[rem338win]

Originally Posted by Salavee

Ballistic and terminal efficiency and Game Mgmt. don't belong in the same sentence but unsatisfactory AB Game management and promoting the .223 as a BG cartridge probably do. The exception being that one is a bit more out of line than the other. The same types are pushing both agendas... trying to make more with less and actually believing they can pull it off. No kidding !

Again, you're speaking from a position of having no experience in the matter. I've shot big game with .22 centerfires. I have friends that do. This includes big mountain mule deer and black bears. It kills them dead. As dead as any other cartridge; expansion and penetration is expansion and penetration.

I personally found the 22-250 shooting 45gr TSXs devastating and wouldn't hesitate. I never saw a single deer shot with a .22 centerfire walk away laughing or get lost. All dead and easily found.

Its terribly tiring to watch people state they know when they've never seen or tried.

I'd use a properly outfitted .223 on deer no problem. Before I'd call the 44-40 or the .38-20 lever a deer cartridge and they've been acceptable in AB. Common sense prevails pfffft.

[Stinky Coyote]

right on, and love the irony of that data coming from a guy with the 338win handle

[Salavee]

Originally Posted by rem338win

Again, you're speaking from a position of having no experience in the matter. I've shot big game with .22 centerfires. I have friends that do. This includes big mountain mule deer and black bears. It kills them dead. As dead as any other cartridge; expansion and penetration is expansion and penetration.

I personally found the 22-250 shooting 45gr TSXs devastating and wouldn't hesitate. I never saw a single deer shot with a .22 centerfire walk away laughing or get lost. All dead and easily found.

Its terribly tiring to watch people state they know when they've never seen or tried.

I'd use a properly outfitted .223 on deer no problem. Before I'd call the 44-40 or the .38-20 lever a deer cartridge and they've been acceptable in AB. Common sense prevails pfffft.

Why would I resort to a .22 cal when it's just a easy to use a .243, 6mm ,.257 or a 6.5 ?. Why would anybody for that matter ? Like a few others on here, you're pretty good at making assumptions.

[Salavee]

Originally Posted by Stinky Coyote

right on, and love the irony of that data coming from a guy with the 338win handle

Is that the kind of stuff you call "data" ? No wonder !

[Stinky Coyote]

Originally Posted by Salavee

Why would I resort to a .22 cal when it's just a easy to use a .243, 6mm ,.257 or a 6.5 ?. Why would anybody for that matter ? Like a few others on here, you're pretty good at making assumptions.

why resort to a .243, 6mm,.257 or a 6.5 when you can resort to a .284,7mm,.308 or a .338?

interesting logic

eye for an eye then

[rem338win]

Originally Posted by Salavee

Why would I resort to a .22 cal when it's just a easy to use a .243, 6mm ,.257 or a 6.5 ?. Why would anybody for that matter ? Like a few others on here, you're pretty good at making assumptions.

It's just as easy to use a .22 so why bother with a .243, 257 or 6.5? You're making assumptions. I'm speaking from experience.

How many big game animals have you used a .22 CF on to form your staunch opinion?

The game your playing in your head leads to one conclusion: we all start shooting everything from moles to megaladons with a .40 caliber rifle because why wouldn't you.

Or you can use what's proven to work.

[rem338win]

Originally Posted by Stinky Coyote

right on, and love the irony of that data coming from a guy with the 338win handle

Great cartridges and calibers come in many different shapes and sizes.

[Salavee]

Originally Posted by rem338win

It's just as easy to use a .22 so why bother with a .243, 257 or 6.5? You're making assumptions. I'm speaking from experience.

How many big game animals have you used a .22 CF on to form your staunch opinion?

The game your playing in your head leads to one conclusion: we all start shooting everything from moles to megaladons with a .40 caliber rifle because why wouldn't you.

Or you can use what's proven to work.

Your experience and mine are obviously different .

Like I said, why use a .22 cal. when something a bit larger, more practical and more versatile can do the job fewer limitations. No head games there Bud.

[Salavee]

Originally Posted by Stinky Coyote

why resort to a .243, 6mm,.257 or a 6.5 when you can resort to a .284,7mm,.308 or a .338?

interesting logic

eye for an eye then

No . That's Stinky's logic applied .. again.

[crazy_davey]

Originally Posted by Salavee

Your experience and mine are obviously different .

Ya, he has way more than you do.

[Stinky Coyote]

and this is where thread goes from productive to non...look for a whole in my game to discredit, that's fine, just show me data that proves what i'm saying isn't true and i'll absorb that just fine

i didn't make this shizzle up, show me the math that proves any of this otherwise, my faculties around comprehension and math are solid af, also good with visualizations

we can turn into a he did this but that guy did even more fest if we want?