Anyone want to separate now???

[827rotax]

Fascinating article by Lisa Corbella of the Calgary Herald.


Something has to give !!

Quebec and the Fairy Godmother



Today, let's have some fun and play Fairy Godmother to
Quebec . Let's grant the province the wish it articulated in Copenhagen . Wave
the magic wand and poof, wish granted. Shut down Alberta 's oilsands, except,
since it's Quebec making the wish, we have to call it tarsands, even though
it's not tar they use to run their Bombardier planes, trains and Skidoos.

Ah, at last! The blight on Canada 's reputation shut down.
All those dastardly workers from across Canada living in Fort McMurray ,
Calgary and Edmonton out of jobs, including those waitresses, truck drivers,
nurses, teachers, doctors, pilots, engineers etc.. They can all go on
Employment insurance like Ontario autoworkers and Quebec parts makers!

Closing down Alberta 's oil industry would immediately stop
the production of 1.8 million barrels of oil a day. Supply and demand being
what it is, oil prices will go up and therefore the cost at the pump will go
up, too, increasing the cost of everything else.

But lost jobs in Alberta and across the country along with
higher gas prices are a small price to pay to save the world and not
"embarrass" Quebecers on the world stage. Not to worry though, Saudi Arabia ,
Libya and Nigeria can come to the rescue. You know, the guys who pump money
into al-Qaida and help Osama bin Laden target those Van Doos fighting in
Afghanistan . Bloody oil is so much nicer than dirty tarsands oil.

Shutting down the oilsands will reduce Canada 's greenhouse
gas (GHG) emissions by 38.4 Mt (megatonnes). Hooray! It's so fun to be a
Fairy Godmother! While that sounds like a lot, Canada only produces two per
cent of the world's man-made GHGs and the oilsands only produce five per
cent of Canada 's total emissions or 0.1 per cent of the world's emissions.
By comparison, the U.S. produces 20.2 per cent of the world's

GHG emissions, 27 per cent of which comes from coal-fired
electricity.

The 530-square-kilometre piece of land currently disturbed
by the oilsands (which is smaller than the John F. Kennedy Space Center at
Cape Canaveral , Fla. at 570 square kilometres) must be reclaimed by law and
will return to Alberta 's 381,000 square kilometres of boreal forest, a huge
carbon sink.

Quebec , of course, has clean hydro power, but more than
13,000 square kilometres were drowned for the James Bay hydroelectric
project, permanently removing that forest from acting as a carbon sink.

But Fairy Godmother is digressing all over the place. While
the oilsands only produce five per cent of Canada 's GHGs, it contributes
much more to Canada 's economy. After all, oil and gas make up one-quarter of
the value on the TSX alone. Alberta is also the largest net contributor per
capita by far to Confederation and there are only two more -- B.C. and
Ontario .

Quebec hasn't made a net contribution to the rest of Canada
for a very long time. This is not to be critical (after all, Fairy
Godmothers never criticize), it's just a fact. In 2009, Albertans paid
$40.46 billion in income, corporate and other taxes to the federal
government and received back just $19.35 billion in services and goods from
the feds. That means the rest of Canada got $21.1 billion from Albertans or
$5,742 for each and every Alberta man, woman and child. In 2007 (the last
year national figures are available), Alberta sent a net contribution of
$19.49 billion to the ROC or $5,553 per Albertan -- more than three times
what every Ontarian contributes at $1,757. Quebecers, on the other hand,
each received $627 net or a total of $8 billion, money which was designed to
help "equalize" social programs across the country. Except, that's not what
is happening. Quebec has more generous social programs like (nearly) free
university tuition (paid for mostly by Albertans) and cheap provincial day
care (paid for mostly by Albertans).

But in this Fairy Godmother world, poof, those delightful
unequal programs have now disappeared! Quel dommage!

The July 2009 Canadian Energy Research Institute (CERI)
report states that between 2008 and 2032, the oilsands will account for
172,000 person-years of employment in Ontario during the construction phase,
plus 640,000 for operations over the 25-year period. For Quebec , the
oilsands will account for 84,000 person-years of employment during the
construction phase, plus 292,000 for operations over the 25-year period.

In total, the oilsands are expected to add $1.7 trillion to
Canada 's GDP over the next 25 years.

Wave wand and Poof, Jobs, gone! So, now that the oil
industry has shut down and left Alberta , Alberta has become a have-not
province and so has every other province. Equality at last! Hugo Chavez will
be so pleased.

Meeting our Copenhagen targets suddenly looks possible, as
most of us can't afford to drive our cars or buy anything but necessities,
so manufacturers have closed their doors and emissions are way down.

The dream of many Quebecers to form their own nation and
separate from Canada has died at last. Alas, in Alberta , separatist
sentiment has risen dramatically, citizens vote to separate and the oil and
gas industry returns.

Albertans start to pocket that almost $6,000 for each person
that used to get sent elsewhere and now their kids get free tuition. Fairy
Godmother's work is done. Wish granted. Quebecers must now sign up for a
foreign worker visas to work in Alberta to send their cheques back home so
junior can start saving up to pay for college.

Licia Corbella is editorial page editor of The Calgary Herald.

Please keeps this message going, forward to as many as possible.

I post this as there is another thread here about it, I could not read it as I was sick to my stomache. So forgive me if it is duplicate.

For the record, I do not work in the pacth or in the oilsands, I own a commercial framing business that has been severly affected by the downturn and lack of constrution up north. I for one would sign in a heart beat (to separate), and I would volunteer, myslef, wife and daughter for 2 weeks a year to watch the border, to stop them from crawling over, under or shoot them out of the sky as they try. Good bye Qubec, and thanks!!

[Jigger]

sure feels good knowing that i'am not only paying for my own university education out of my own pocket. Then having to virtually pay another 6000$ to some francophone in quebec every year - what a joke. And to think there the ones complaining and wanting to seperate.

[thumper]

I noticed that buried in the business section of the Calgary paper a few days ago - Quebec paid $80 million to a northern Indian band to flood their lands for a new hydro project. That's wildlife habitat, vegetation (natural carbon sinks) and traditional native land lost - forever and ever, to sell energy to the U.S. markets.

It's fine for Quebec to flood huge areas to generate energy - but not for the oil-sands to remove energy and then reclaim land.

Our petroleum producers are asleep at the switch for not making these comparisons front page news.

[roadkill]

So, I guess it's getting kind of old to whinge about the Muslim invasion, or stick it to those who had to pay their own way out of Egypt, if you guys are back on the Québec thing.

Anyway, go on...

[buster92]

I totally agree with the statement above, however, being from Quebec originally, rest assured that it is not the opinion of all the quebecois regarding the equalization payments and complaining about more money from the west, that is mostly politicians at work, squeeky wheel get the grease!!

Signed, ex-quebecois redneck living in rural alberta driving a dodge cummins!!
and yes I have guns!!

[rugatika]

Originally Posted by roadkill

So, I guess it's getting kind of old to whinge about the Muslim invasion, or stick it to those who had to pay their own way out of Egypt, if you guys are back on the Québec thing.

Anyway, go on...

Those things never get old.

But seriously...would you be pleased as punch to be coughing up $6000 a year to fund social programs in another province that your own province didn't provide on account of their fiscal responsibility?? Or put up with the hypocricy of a liberal province that has done more damage to the environment than all others combined, pointing fingers at the oil sands which get reclaimed to pristine condition??

It would be interesting to find out what the kaybecwahhh would have to say if they were coughing up 6000 bucks for every man woman and child so that every Albertan could buy a super deluxe lifted truck, complete with gun rack and gun? If Albertans were doing to quebec what they are doing to us...they would be rioting in the streets and quite literally going insane with rage. (which would please me to no end)

The time has come for every person in this country to be treated equally. If your province cannot afford to gift you with every known social program on their own dime then tough. Frankly, I'd like to see an equalization program that demanded all provinces that have received equalization payments in the past pay them back.

Roadkill...I'd be seriously interested in how you justify the saneness of Albertans footing the bill for Quebecs cadillac social programs that they cannot afford without raping and pillaging Albertans, DESPITE Quebecs huge income from hydro sales.

[hillbillyreefer]

Originally Posted by roadkill

So, I guess it's getting kind of old to whinge about the Muslim invasion, or stick it to those who had to pay their own way out of Egypt, if you guys are back on the Québec thing.

Anyway, go on...

Your province was making the headline about wanting $5 BILLION or we will force an election. Bring it on!

Remember demographics are changing and Quebec is losing it's population, making the West more powerful. Soon you will be the ones being told to squeal like a pig!

[FishBrain]

The reason it does not hit front page is because of the province that is getting the benefit, if it was AB or BC, or even Sask, it would be on the front cover of every major newspaper in Canada and northern US states.

[Scott N]

Wow, this article is old! It's not news anymore.

[hillbillyreefer]

Originally Posted by Scott N

Wow, this article is old! It's not news anymore.

The info in it is still relevant. So let's have a discussion.

I have to say Roadkill, you've got balls as big as the $6000 benefit you are getting. Best wishes and let's hope the Chinese buy up Bombardier!

[greylynx]

Originally Posted by hillbillyreefer

The info in it is still relevant. So let's have a discussion.

I have to say Roadkill, you've got balls as big as the $6000 benefit you are getting. Best wishes and let's hope the Chinese buy up Bombardier!

A discussion that is not relevant?

Now let me see what $6,000 in each AO member'pocket could buy. Now let us take into account the AO family members.

LeBarons would probably want to move out here next to Cabala's

Hello Mr. Cooper, could we talk about a rifle, I would like.

[eastcoast]

this is just one of the things that won't go away,quebec will never seperate and neither will alberta,we may aswell be talking about something that may happen.

[rugatika]

Originally Posted by hillbillyreefer

The info in it is still relevant. So let's have a discussion.

I have to say Roadkill, you've got balls as big as the $6000 benefit you are getting. Best wishes and let's hope the Chinese buy up Bombardier!

Maybe if the Chinese buy up bombardier it may make a profit without having to live off of the Canadian Government money AKA:Alberta

[Goater]

Someone actually reads Lisa Corbella fluff Wow who would of thunk!

[buster92]

@ rugatika, the point I was trying to make was that if the roles were reversed, what would your opinion be? I am from Quebec and have lots of family there, but I do live in Alberta, I do support the oil sands, not the TAR sands. I totally disagree with the equalization payments, and the Quebec government bitching about OUR carbon footprint, I have seen the James Bay, and Manic 1 and 2, they flooded more area than the oil sands use and it will never be returned to forestation, unlike the oil sands. They just found the largest deposit of shale gas between Montreal and Trois-Rivieres, 100 km by 40 kms and they are still bitchin', that will never end. I am proud to have been born in Quebec and speak french, but I am just as pround to be in Alberta and speak english, I have left Quebec in 1984, Do you think I can voice my opinion and support Alberta? Yes. Can I be objective about Quebec?Yes! Lets's go fishing or hunting someday! We'll have a beer and chat!

[Sneeze]

Originally Posted by Jigger

sure feels good knowing that i'am not only paying for my own university education out of my own pocket.

Sorry to come out of left field here, but in what Canada do you live in that you are asked to pay your own way through University?

I think perhaps you are mistaken as to the significance of the financial contribution your making to your educational facility.

[trophyboy]

That was great. Can I add ontario, and the maritimes to that list as well?

[roadkill]

Originally Posted by rugatika

Roadkill...I'd be seriously interested in how you justify the saneness of Albertans footing the bill for Quebecs cadillac social programs that they cannot afford without raping and pillaging Albertans, DESPITE Quebecs huge income from hydro sales.

But the thing is, Rug, I don't have to justify it. Everyone pays into the transfer payments scheme, dependent on income. And if that $6000 wasn't coming here, it still wouldn't go into social programmes in Alberta because you're *Alberta,* fer gossakes.

Plus, it's not like Québecers aren't footing any of the bill, either: I mean, I pay something like 18% sales tax every time I buy something. Hellz, if the government in Québec City wasn't paying for language cops and mafia-run public works, we might not need the payments at all. Or at least, not as much...

Harper's changes to the whole scheme were well intentioned I guess, but they really just created a whole new level of byzantine crap, because now provinces can sort of pick and choose which scheme to go for. It's a complete mess.

By the way, as of now, Ontario is the only province never to have gotten a transfer payment.

But everyone here's bitching about a few billion dollars that Québec wouldn't be asking for now if BC and Ontario hadn't been compensated for harmonising their sales taxes with Ottawa in the first place, since Québec wasn't offered anything when it harmonised in the late '90s. Or rather, 2 billion or so is due to that. The rest is actually the Bloc's way of toppling the Tories. You guys are seeing it as a money grab, when it's actually an attempt at a cyanide shot to the governing party.

So, while you're all b17@#ing and moaning about $6000 per person or whatever, you've completely missed the point.

Originally Posted by hillbillyreefer

Remember demographics are changing and Quebec is losing it's population, making the West more powerful. Soon you will be the ones being told to squeal like a pig!

Yeah, uh... you go, guy! That'll learn 'em...

Originally Posted by hillbillyreefer

The info in it is still relevant. So let's have a discussion.

I have to say Roadkill, you've got balls as big as the $6000 benefit you are getting. Best wishes and let's hope the Chinese buy up Bombardier!

What, you think they're not going to do exactly that one day? Whoda thunk back in the day that they'd ever be able to buy IBM? Next thing you know, they own Big Blue's entire PC business. Who'd have thought that an Indian company would ever own Land Rover or Jaguar? I have no doubt that at some point, they will own Bombardier. And the whole oilsands, and probably most of the mining. And since the current government is working as hard as the last one did to keep Chinese money coming into Canada, I don't think that any of us moaning about it is going to change anything.

[Private Ear]

Originally Posted by roadkill

But the thing is, Rug, I don't have to justify it. Everyone pays into the transfer payments scheme, dependent on income. And if that $6000 wasn't coming here, it still wouldn't go into social programmes in Alberta because you're *Alberta,* fer gossakes.

Plus, it's not like Québecers aren't footing any of the bill, either: I mean, I pay something like 18% sales tax every time I buy something. Hellz, if the government in Québec City wasn't paying for language cops and mafia-run public works, we might not need the payments at all. Or at least, not as much...

Harper's changes to the whole scheme were well intentioned I guess, but they really just created a whole new level of byzantine crap, because now provinces can sort of pick and choose which scheme to go for. It's a complete mess.

By the way, as of now, Ontario is the only province never to have gotten a transfer payment.

But everyone here's bitching about a few billion dollars that Québec wouldn't be asking for now if BC and Ontario hadn't been compensated for harmonising their sales taxes with Ottawa in the first place, since Québec wasn't offered anything when it harmonised in the late '90s. Or rather, 2 billion or so is due to that. The rest is actually the Bloc's way of toppling the Tories. You guys are seeing it as a money grab, when it's actually an attempt at a cyanide shot to the governing party.

So, while you're all b17@#ing and moaning about $6000 per person or whatever, you've completely missed the point.



Yeah, uh... you go, guy! That'll learn 'em...



What, you think they're not going to do exactly that one day? Whoda thunk back in the day that they'd ever be able to buy IBM? Next thing you know, they own Big Blue's entire PC business. Who'd have thought that an Indian company would ever own Land Rover or Jaguar? I have no doubt that at some point, they will own Bombardier. And the whole oilsands, and probably most of the mining. And since the current government is working as hard as the last one did to keep Chinese money coming into Canada, I don't think that any of us moaning about it is going to change anything.

I vote you and your kind leave Canada! F*ing left wing troo dough idiots have no idea. This country is not big enough for the both of us!

Edit: I would stay and debate but you can't affortd my rate...oh wait a minute...I have to go make some revenue so you can sit on forums and spew your garbage! Stay home lefty!

[roadkill]

Originally Posted by Private Ear

I vote you and your kind leave Canada! F*ing left wing troo dough idiots have no idea. This country is not big enough for the both of us!

Edit: I would stay and debate but you can't affortd my rate...oh wait a minute...I have to go make some revenue so you can sit on forums and spew your garbage! Stay home lefty!

Blah blah blah. I've been called worse by better. And most of 'em are on this board.

[Cattle Dog]

Quebec language laws make it a chargable crime to have an english sign on your business.
Yet they are happy to suck billions of "equalization payments" out of western canada.
Just like Trudeau and Mark Lelonde badly hurt alberta with their "National Energy Policy" in the 1980's

[roadkill]

Originally Posted by Cattle Dog

Quebec language laws make it a chargable crime to have an english sign on your business.
Yet they are happy to suck billions of "equalization payments" out of western canada.
Just like Trudeau and Mark Lelonde badly hurt alberta with their "National Energy Policy" in the 1980's

Whoah there, it's not a chargeable crime. It's a fine to have an English-only sign. Used to be a fine to have any English at all, but it's been legal to have English on indoor signs and wall menus and such for several years -- so long as it comes to the right or underneath the French and is (get this) in type that is half the size of the French. Anything that deviates from this runs the risk of attracting a fine.

Please note: I sure ain't defending this crap. I'm just clarifying something.

[Goater]

.So knowing how to speak english really does have it's advantages.
.http://www.canadanews.net/story.php?rid=42010242
http://news.yahoo.com/s/afp/20110113...20110113211140

[rugatika]

with all due respect. I think you're missing my point. Point being that Albertans are living within their means (well less so since Stelmach took over), but we don't dole out social programs that we know we can't afford like Quebec does. If not for the billions of dollars that ALberta sends to Quebec they would be in the hole. Alberta's oil profits get factored into equalization, Quebecs Hydro does NOT. I'm NOT complaining about Alberta's lack of social programs (I think we have too many as it is), I am complaining about having to foot the bill for another provinces extravagances that they would not be able to afford were it not for the very province AND industry they despise.

Incidentally, if we were only talking about a "few billion" dollars I don't think it would be such a big deal. We are talking about 20 billion dollars or more PER year. Money that gets sent to a province that does nothing but thumb their nose and denigrate the very people that are affording their extravagant lifestyle. And yes...quebecers pay higher taxes than most...and as well they should...they rely on government more than anyone else.

Where I come from $6000 a year is a lot of money...especially for a family of four with a father that needs to work away from home on the rigs, or in the patch. That's $24000 a year that family is contributing to Quebec (well other provinces too, but mainly Quebec). For what? A highly socialized province that pretty much proves the fact that socialism cannot survive without being a parasite to a host.

What amazes me is that Quebecers are astonished that Albertans resent having to forfeit their hard earned money to fund a lifestyle that Albertans don't have.

[Arn?Narn.]

[Lonnie]

Quebec is a huge province and should be fairly well of with their natural resources but their not even trying to develop them. witch does seem strange to me.

[Steven Noel]

Originally Posted by eastcoast

this is just one of the things that won't go away,quebec will never seperate and neither will alberta,we may aswell be talking about something that may happen.

X2

[roadkill]

Originally Posted by rugatika

with all due respect. I think you're missing my point.

... (cut for space)

What amazes me is that Quebecers are astonished that Albertans resent having to forfeit their hard earned money to fund a lifestyle that Albertans don't have.

Okay, fair enough. There was a lot of bandying gong on about the current $5 bil, so I guess I missed that that's not what you were talking about. But I also think that there's a mistake being made here. Alberta does benefit form most of the transfer payments every year, it's the Equalisation Payments that Alberta doesn't see any of, and it's not the largest part of the transfer payment scheme.

But, bear in mind that Québec pays big into the transfer payment scheme as well. Because the system depends on each person's income rather than the province he lives in, Québec's 7.5 million people (or whatever the figure is now) equals a large chunk of change, just as the high average income in Alberta does. And according to Statistics Canada, in 2004, Québec got less money from the Equalisation payments than did Newfoundland and Labrador, Nova Scotia, PEI, New Brunswick, Manitoba and Saskatchewan (again, Alberta receives the other transfer payments every year). BC, Alberta and Ontario tend to be big contributors because of the average income levels in those provinces (Okay, and in Ontario, the massive population). Québec is I guess a mid-range contributor because of the population. Ans the reason everyone's up in arms about us sucking off the nation's teet is because our population is largely the National Other, the evil francophone. I mean, the $5 billion government topple aside, I'd say that Nova Scotia's made more trouble over the transfers than we have.

But you're mixing up a system that in your opinion doesn't work with the ugly reality that our system here in Québec is completely rife with corruption. There isn't a system known to man that works well when everyone at the switch is a crook. I was serious when I said that, if the roads and public works weren't being maintained by agents of organised crime, this province wouldn't be *nearly* as expensive as it is. Oh, and tossing $20 mil or so a year at the Office québécois de la langue française kinda doesn't help.

And really, whereas I can understand how this system looks to someone in your position, Quebecers aren't astonished about anything. Most of us don't even think about this crap.

[Alberta Separatist]

Until albertans actually get concerned about all the dollars the feds are collecting; nothing will change.
most albertans are unaware of the equalization tax and our provincial government doesn't want to advocate the facts of this issue.

in my opinion, our provincial government should collect all taxes ; then when albertans see the balance sheet, questions should raised by everyone who is concerned about losing 10 - 15 - 20 billion to ottawa for ?????????

should we not see the light.... then we are just plain stupid.

[rugatika]

My point exactly. Quebecers don't care who butters their bread. Why should it be a point of concern where the money is coming from? Anyways...suffice it to say, that something needs to change and Alberta needs to ditch its' parasites one way or another.

THey receive more money in equalization than ALL the other provinces combined. This despite their vast natural resources (particularly Hydro).

http://www.mapleleafweb.com/features...mporary-issues