Now this stream should really be better than it is.
Just wondering if anyone has come across this type of stream in your explorations of this fine province. You know you leave your usual streams for a day of exploration not necessarily to an unheard of secret place but just a place you don't normally go to and when you arrive everything just looks so perfect lots of awesome holes runs and riffles all set out in a perfect way you just know it is going to be an amazing day filled with 18 inch trout of whatever variety but as you hike along casting switching flies switching methods maybe with a little success or maybe none at all but the farther you walk the better and better the stream looks but the big payoff just never comes and you sit there and wonder why ... why isn't this place as good as such and such place it should be there is no reason for it not to be. eventually you head home left wondering WHY? then a couple years later you find yourself in the area again and you convince yourself that you will try it again because you know it has to be a big trout mecca its just to perfect not to ... so you go and start hiking and the story repeats it self once again WHY?
For me one of the streams like this is the Burnt timber creek, over the years I have fished this creek a handful of times I have had some minor success but I am always left wondering why this stream is not so much better than it is, it just oozes with what should be prime bulltrout/cutthroat water and it just seems like it should be so much more than it is ... I find this to be true of a lot of streams in the upper reddeer system. so beautiful so perfect looking they should be legendary trout streams, now don't get me wrong I have had some really good fishing in my life in this area but there just seems to be some streams here that should be unreal and at least for me they have not been. when I research and try to find out why they are not as good as some of our best cutthroat waters I read about and consider issues like the growing season down south is longer so that's why the fish are bigger and more abundant but my answer to that is a couple streams up in the north Saskatchewan system that are just as good for big plentiful cutts as those streams down south so why has the northern latitude not hindered them ... next I consider C&R regulations this might explain why these streams never reached top notch status in the 80s and 90s but I believe they have been C&R for a good portion of the 2000s but still no amazing cutthroat streams have developed here and once again I am left asking WHY??
What streams do you guys feel fall in this category for you??
Do any of you have any opinions or answers to my conundrum ??
All related thoughts and opinions appreciated ... thanks ... DIDDY.
Drought profoundly effects both the Little Red and Burnt Timber. The last big fish kill removed about 80% of the fish.
Such is life in the eastern slopes - sometimes flood - sometimes drought.
There is a lot to streams. You have to look at the stream as whole including things you can't see. Things like gradient, what type of bottom the stream flows over, cattle, over wintering areas to name a few. I know for a fact burnt timber and the little red are slower moving rivers. I would personally rather fish other creeks in that area. Most of those streams in the upper red deer system hold browns maybe a change of tactics are in order as those browns are tough to catch also a lot of those creeks are quite slow and deep they can be tricky to fish
I know for a fact burnt timber and the little red are slower moving rivers. I would personally rather fish other creeks in that area. Most of those streams in the upper red deer system hold browns maybe a change of tactics are in order as those browns are tough to catch also a lot of those creeks are quite slow and deep they can be tricky to fish
I am talking about the BURNT TIMBER and North burnt timber here guys not the fallentimber and little red those are for sure slower and predominantly brown trout waters ... but the UPPER reddeer tribs like the Burnt timber and panther are predominantly cutty and bull trout waters and they are not slow and deep they are fast high gradient streams very similar to the Livingston and ram rivers .... sorry for the confusion. but rycoma I totally agree with you on those browns in FT and LR being tricky at times for sure.
For me, the Cardinal River should be alot better, the areas i fished had little to no traces of Human Activity, and had pristine Pools..nothing in them, it was still fairly early in the year(July), so maybe the Cutts were down in the Brazeau still...spent a full day on it with no success..havent bothered going back. Its hard to Judge it only spending one day on it, but not even a Bull or RMW..with Polarised glasses i can usually spot something even if im not catching. Exploring new Rivers is fun, but always a gamble..the last few years i seem to have less and less time to gamble..
I know it was heavily over fished in the past, maybe it has just never recovered, but the Blackstone and Ram Systems were as well, and they recovered fine..
Last edited by tight line; 03-24-2014 at 07:43 AM.
My mom lives down on that stretch of the river between Lundbreck Falls and the East Hillcrest bridge. It is open all year long and has a lot of pressure which in my opinion leads to some very smart fish-your fly and presentation has to be perfect for any results. I have spent some very long days on that stretch of water and end up throwing everything at them but the kitchen sink, but very rarely with much success.
Not enough over wintering pools. This is where a man mad reservoir can help. There are many similar streams in Bc but are not far from a lake where they can overwinter. plUs the food
level is pretty low as well because there are mot a lot of things falling into the stream to feed the system. then add in the past years where they were over fished and they take a long time to recover. Now if burnt timber had a lake in the headwaters it would probably be a different story
I have oneplace I know on the Sheep upstream of Turner Valley. You can drive right to it and in a stretch of 150 yards it has riffles, pools, etc. It's quite a beautiful place too, can't see any evidence of man. I've been three times and NEVER caught a fish. Lost a lot of hooks, but that's it.
My mom lives down on that stretch of the river between Lundbreck Falls and the East Hillcrest bridge. It is open all year long and has a lot of pressure which in my opinion leads to some very smart fish-your fly and presentation has to be perfect for any results. I have spent some very long days on that stretch of water and end up throwing everything at them but the kitchen sink, but very rarely with much success.
Yeah I fished the crowsnest my first time lat summer and just caught whitefish when I decided to nymph lol! I found trout would swim up to my dries then ignore them but I chalk that up to my poor presentation. I found it tricky to maintian a drag free drift in many of the pools. I like fishing for goldeye. Makes me feel like a pro lol!
Do some more exploring! Beautiful little creeks. I caught a ridiculous amount of bulls on the dry on burnt timber last year. Only fished it one day but every spot you thought would hold fish, held fish. Caught a few small cutties but definitely a lot more bulls. We found the whole upper red deer system to be very productive, except for the panther, only landed one small cutty there.
Nothing wrong with the upper arms of the burnt timber. Fished ok this summer after the flood. Not as good as previous years, but not devoid. Maybe your sights are too high with 18 inch trout. Have pulled a couple bulls that size, but those are just special treats.
For me, the Cardinal River should be alot better, the areas i fished had little to no traces of Human Activity, and had pristine Pools..nothing in them, it was still fairly early in the year(July), so maybe the Cutts were down in the Brazeau still...spent a full day on it with no success..havent bothered going back. Its hard to Judge it only spending one day on it, but not even a Bull or RMW..with Polarised glasses i can usually spot something even if im not catching. Exploring new Rivers is fun, but always a gamble..the last few years i seem to have less and less time to gamble..
I know it was heavily over fished in the past, maybe it has just never recovered, but the Blackstone and Ram Systems were as well, and they recovered fine..
Maybe the nets one finds gives one a clue.
Have I found nets? Yes. Did I report them? Yes
I pulled them, put them in a pile, burnt them, and got out of Dodge.
Do some more exploring! Beautiful little creeks. I caught a ridiculous amount of bulls on the dry on burnt timber last year. Only fished it one day but every spot you thought would hold fish, held fish. Caught a few small cutties but definitely a lot more bulls. We found the whole upper red deer system to be very productive, except for the panther, only landed one small cutty there.
Sedativ3 & robson3954
Don't get me wrong guys the streams of the upper red are good, it is where I grew up fishing and I have had pretty much the same success as you guys especially with the bulls .... what I am saying is I can not see any reason why they can't produce the sizes and the numbers of cutts as other very productive streams like the Livingston down south and the north ram up north .... streams like the burnt timbers the panther and the big red it self and all the smaller lesser known tribs above the trunk road have all fished well for me my whole life ... but when it comes to cutts they just do not compare to the Livingston and the north ram and to me it seems like they should .... sure the Livingston has a longer growing season but if that is what is stopping these streams then why is the north ram so good it's growing season is even shorter, I know the upper reddeer system has not been C&R as long as the other 2 but it has been a decade and those other streams were trophy fisheries less than a decade after C&R and in the panthers case it should be even better because IMO it is way less accessible really it only has 1 easily accessible point where as both the Livingston and the north ram have good roads running along them with hundreds of easy access points and as far as I know from books I have read both the burnt timber and the panther have similar bug life as the north ram .... so in conclusion I say the streams of the UPPER red deer system are great bull trout streams and not bad cutty streams but I see no reason why they should not be amazing trophy cutthroat streams and I continue to ask WHY???
Even though cutthroats were stocked in the streams of the upper red back in the day .... I still don't know if they have received any substantial stocking now that C&R is in effect ... does anyone know the answer to that question??
My first ever fish on a dry fly was a panther river bull back in the 90s here is a photo.
GOTTA LOVE THEM SPANDEX PANTS LOL!!!
Is it possible the other rivers have not suffered the same damage from multiple flood events . Low nutrient counts, cattle encroachment , siltation from active logging and oil ng extraction are possible other factors that affect fish health on these headwater streams . Brookie numbers could also affect recruitment. I suspect given good bull numbers spring high water events hurt or destroy year classes of cutties.
Just what I see. Imho.
I am not that familiar with the upper Red Deer River tribs, but you are right in that they are not as well known as the cutty streams to the south and north of them. My best guess would be low winter flows limiting the numbers of trout. Winter is a cruel time for many Alberta trout streams.
I am not that familiar with the upper Red Deer River tribs, but you are right in that they are not as well known as the cutty streams to the south and north of them. My best guess would be low winter flows limiting the numbers of trout. Winter is a cruel time for many Alberta trout streams.
Good call low period flows on the upper red itself can fall to 2-3cfm. Not the kind of flow that generates big trout.
I pulled them, put them in a pile, burnt them, and got out of Dodge.
THAT would explain it...brutal... It will be Interesting to see how my go to streams are this year, the flooding realy seemed to drop the numbers last year.
Removing forest cover in watersheds influences stream flows, and with it, water temperature and oxygen patterns. Flows become flashier, with higher peaks, lower lows and generally more dramatic & frequent changes. Usually, fish productivity suffers, sometimes a lot. When habitat changes are great enough to cross cross mortality thresholds, even for a short time, fish will die. Stress caused by sub-lethal conditions adds up to increased fish mortality. Many Alberta streams that used to be highly productive trout waters are flowing in watersheds that have been greatly changed by agriculture, forestry and oil & gas. The bottom line is that we're trading off economic output for healthy, productive fisheries, but we're rarely asked if we want to make that trade. It's made for us. The pattern will continue, I expect.
Just wondering if anyone has come across this type of stream in your explorations of this fine province. You know you leave your usual streams for a day of exploration not necessarily to an unheard of secret place but just a place you don't normally go to and when you arrive everything just looks so perfect lots of awesome holes runs and riffles all set out in a perfect way you just know it is going to be an amazing day filled with 18 inch trout of whatever variety but as you hike along casting switching flies switching methods maybe with a little success or maybe none at all but the farther you walk the better and better the stream looks but the big payoff just never comes and you sit there and wonder why ... why isn't this place as good as such and such place it should be there is no reason for it not to be. eventually you head home left wondering WHY? then a couple years later you find yourself in the area again and you convince yourself that you will try it again because you know it has to be a big trout mecca its just to perfect not to ... so you go and start hiking and the story repeats it self once again WHY?
For me one of the streams like this is the Burnt timber creek, over the years I have fished this creek a handful of times I have had some minor success but I am always left wondering why this stream is not so much better than it is, it just oozes with what should be prime bulltrout/cutthroat water and it just seems like it should be so much more than it is ... I find this to be true of a lot of streams in the upper reddeer system. so beautiful so perfect looking they should be legendary trout streams, now don't get me wrong I have had some really good fishing in my life in this area but there just seems to be some streams here that should be unreal and at least for me they have not been. when I research and try to find out why they are not as good as some of our best cutthroat waters I read about and consider issues like the growing season down south is longer so that's why the fish are bigger and more abundant but my answer to that is a couple streams up in the north Saskatchewan system that are just as good for big plentiful cutts as those streams down south so why has the northern latitude not hindered them ... next I consider C&R regulations this might explain why these streams never reached top notch status in the 80s and 90s but I believe they have been C&R for a good portion of the 2000s but still no amazing cutthroat streams have developed here and once again I am left asking WHY??
What streams do you guys feel fall in this category for you??
Do any of you have any opinions or answers to my conundrum ??
All related thoughts and opinions appreciated ... thanks ... DIDDY.
Every time I fish burnt timber it's amazing so don't know what's goin on with your experience
Every time I fish burnt timber it's amazing so don't know what's goin on with your experience
I'm not saying it is not good, it is beautiful and it looks amazing but when it comes to the cutthroat... I was just saying that there is no reason that it shouldn't be as good and productive in both size and numbers as some of the more popular cutt streams to the south and to the north ... and in my experience it is not as productive as these other streams ... when you say it's amazing what do you mean by amazing are you catching tons of 18 inch cutts ??
all I'm saying is because it has less pressure and has been C&R for quite some time I think it should be as productive as the Livingston and the North Ram ... but I didn't know why it wasn't .... many theories have been presented on this thread and I am sure it is a combo of all of them
do you find both numbers and sizes to be comparable to the Livingston and north ram when you are fishing the Burnt timber ?? I'm talking about the cutts
Sorry. I understand now. I have no experience on the ram or Livingston but as far a straight cuts goes. Not as good as other cut streams I have fished. I do however get a lot of fish and good size on the bt but it is a variety of browns, bulls, cutts and whites. Sorry for the confusion
Just fished burnt timber above the confluence with the north burnt timber, fished for four hours pouring over every likely pool, and run and only landed one 18-19 inch bull trout out of a back Eddie. Water was quite high with run off but to be honest I expected a lot more especially considering how hard we fished. I see the potential for the fishery, and I have no doubt that it is amazing to fish sometimes, but I feel like it is inconsistent.
I've got a nice little spot on the Sheep River. Never seen another soul there (they must know what I don't). It's a long run with all kinds of different water. Looks like it should have fish. Riffles, pools, some log jams... I've probably been there 4 times, never caught one fish. I've caught fish on other parts of the Sheep, just not there.
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Quote:
Originally Posted by DevilsAdvocate
In this case Oki has cut to to the exact heart of the matter!
when I did a big project collecting all F&W and Alberta Environment info on lakes and rivers in Alberta I found one interesting set of reports.
Report 1. Angling method employed. Stream with abundance fish. Excellent habitat. Do a follow up study.
Report 2. Revisited and netting and electrofishing method employed. Abundance fish. Excellent habitat. Do a more detailed study on biomass.
Report 3. Revisited. Used Rotenone. Missed getting potassium permanganate in the water in time to neutralize. Large length of creek killed off. Tons of fish. Excellent habitat.
Report 4. New visit. Angled. Nothing. Netted. Nothing. Electrofished. Nothing. Results. Habitat poor for fish.
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It is not the most intellectual of the species that survives; it is not the strongest that survives; but the species that survives is the one that is able best to adapt and adjust to the changing environment in which it finds itself. Charles Darwin
Now this stream should really be better than it is.
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