So.... What exactly do natives want to be satisfied?

[bessiedog]

Been pondering this for years...
What's fair?....

Tough question.
Ultimately, if we must respect the rule of law.. We have to settle accounts.( our hands are kindof tied here really... Legally even before the Treaty of Westphailia was created..)

Let first nations govern themselves and their negotiated territories completely.
If they self destruct, then... Give them the opportunity to renounce their 'native citizenship, and assimilate to be a Canadian, just like us.

It's the existing treaties that contract 'continuous stewardship-assistance' by the Feds that seems to be the biggest problem. This seems be what perpetuates the 'paternalism' that the idol no more people want. If we negotiate a Kelowna accord type thing again, don't we perpetuate the paternalism?

This was a useful read (sorry, it is the Globe, I read both sides)
http://m.theglobeandmail.com/comment...service=mobile

I will boldly predict that if native nations get more sovereignty over their territories, they will be worse stewards of the land than we Canadians are.

Sovereignty requires money. They will dig, drill and cut to attain a westerni lifestyle that so many seem to desire.

And boy.. The Environmentalists will sure love dat!

[Cyclops]

Well, I was born in Canada, which makes me a native, so what I want is lots of money, lots of women, lots of guns and a new Mustang...please.

[bessiedog]

Originally Posted by Cyclops

Well, I was born in Canada, which makes me a native, so what I want is lots of money, lots of women, lots of guns and a new Mustang...please.

Yet again more evidence that James Madison was possibly correct.

[Alberta Bigbore]

[bessiedog]

Sorry.

[pseelk]

Originally Posted by bessiedog

Sorry.

Too late, its been noted.

[canoes]

[alpineman]

Canada's First Nations Debate - Globe & Mail.
Now this could stir up a bit of a debate...but it is food for thoughts regarding comments from a reader in the Globe and Mail. It's a short history lesson on natives.
This land does NOT belong to them. Why do some people keep saying that it does?
Is it because that's what they want you to believe? Well then the marketing campaign must be working.

Let's get this straight...

1. These people's ancestors did not just appear in North America magically out of thin air one day 50,000 years ago.
They came in waves across the land/ice bridge from Asia. What's more these waves in many case were not related groups of people.
They came from various places around North Eastern Asia and were from different genetic strains....in other words the "natives of North America
are not a homogenous group of people and more importantly.... They are immigrants too, like millions of immigrants today.

2. The idea that the "natives" were peaceful caretakers of the land or benevolent tenants couldn't be further from the truth.
The various tribes warred on each other constantly. They were violent. Want proof? Ask the Huron's...oh that's right you can't.
The Iroquois wiped them out. How about slavery that was rife among the first nation tribes until the Europeans came over and freed
the slaves and put an end to this "valued cultural tradition"? Is slavery peaceful and humane?

3. The idea that we "stole" this land from them is also ridiculous. A more technologically advanced and numerous culture invaded and conquered.
This is exactly what has been happening since the dawn of humanity all around the globe. To say we "stole" their lands is just plain wrong.
That is akin to saying the Saxons should return England to the Angles. Or maybe we should launch a campaign to have Roman descendants give Italy
back to the Etruscans.

It is a nonsensical notion driven by the politically correct bleeding hearts on the left and some intellectually deficient liberals,
and it will continue to cost this country needless and wasted billions and billions until we get some backbone and turn off the taps.

Are these people in trouble? Yes. Do they need help? Yes.
Are they responsible enough to look after themselves and efficiently spend the billions the tax payers give them? Certainly not.

The only way to fix this situation is to bring them into society as equals. They should be getting jobs and paying taxes like the rest of us
because in reality, they are no more special than any of the other hundred or more cultures that call Canada home.

Turn off the taps. Do away with this "traditional use" and "cultural" nonsense. Educate their children to become modern citizens, instead of finding
their identity and source of pride in some folks who occupied the land 15000 years ago. Let them stand or fall on their own account

[great white whaler]

I Just found out i am half indian

[Alberta Bigbore]

Thats great !

[bessiedog]

We 'imperialists' did it to ourselves.

It is not a matter of 'who got here first'.... Unfortunately... Or fortunately..

wE ESTABLISHED it through rule of law...



It is a matter of 'who has the legal ownership papers'.....

We drew em up, we said abide by them cause our entire society is based on rule of law..... You wanna reneg on that basic legal priciple?

Can i move in? You got beer?

That is the crux of the problem.

Reseach the wampum belt, treaty of westphalia, royal proclomation, indian act, and constitution act.

Nice lesson, but youre way off topic.

[thunderheart]

another way of looking at this question is what do white folks need to be satisfied? like canoes post stated this subject is like beating a dead horse. As for what the OP said that if the first nations get stewardship over there lands thing will be bad and that they would rape and pillage till was all gone .. or at least that was the inference i noted .. first nations peoples were here for a million yrs before white man and they had no pollution .. food was abundant, sure some yrs better than others but in general centuries past and they lived close to there lands ... as history shows it wasnt till Europeans arrived that things went to heck here .. lets see i could make a lonnnnnnngggggg list of what has happened in the hundred or so yrs that white man has been here .. i am suggesting that not much of it would be good me thinks when one looks at resource management, and the way we have stewarded the lands we took form the NATIVES of Canada

the most unfortunate thing is the pendulum swings both ways and we are all .. and i mean ALL of us are simply foolish two leggers that can hardly manage our own affairs, so better we manage others affairs .. yawn

just my penny and a half

[Mistagin]

Interesting article in this morning's National Post: http://news.nationalpost.com/2013/01...-idle-no-more/



"indigenism"???

[wwbirds]

Just because someone commented in the Globe and Mail doesnt make it historically accurate. It is an opinion and much of it is wrong. It has been posted at least 3 times on various threads before they were closed.
Talk about repeating the same old propaganda because it suits your purpose.

[bessiedog]

The legal precedence of ownership is incorrect??

Really?

How have we establish right of contract? Ownership? Rule of law?

Hey.. Im open to being wrong here.

And dont go liberalizing me cause i quoted a source... You know its not my bible!
Im agnostic politically.

[covey ridge]

Originally Posted by alpineman

3. The idea that we "stole" this land from them is also ridiculous. A more technologically advanced and numerous culture invaded and conquered.

I do not think that we stole anything. I may be wrong, but the natives believed that they did not own the land but were part of the land and they were willing to share it. Those who conquered, believed that land was claimed in the name of Kings and Queens and governments land was granted by Kings and Queens and governments and that the land could be bought and sold. What I find interesting is that the conquerors were supposed Christians who according to their faith acclaim that the Earth and all that is in it belong to God.

[bessiedog]

Keep it on track...

I kindof want to learn more about property rights and contract legalities here...

Thats the only hole is see in this discussion that COULD be a problem

[Mb-MBR]

Government spent 56 million dollars to seek out the very question that you're asking. One on many studies done by various levels of government.

Its called the Royal Comminssion on Aboriginal Peoples http://www.google.ca/url?sa=t&rct=j&...2Gt_8TzVEpeqYQ
Why would government waste this kind of many if there were never any intentions of following up with its recommendations, its another colassal waste of money. In my opinion this would be a good start.

As an "Indian" "Native"..............or any other term you wish to call me, I feel safe in saying I do not want the "status quo" of government deciding what they think is good for us. We have enough evidence across Canada that it hasn't worked. The true definition of insanity is doing the same thing over again and expecting different results!!!!

Can you imagine in this day and age still having an Indian Act!!! We don't have a Chinese Act, A Ukraniane Act, Italian Act, German Act, Japanese Act, Filipino Act, or any other race that has come to this country Act. I know there are some that still want to hang on to the the Indian Act but there is fear government once again will act unilaterally to change with no consultation with the people who are affected by this.

For the record there are lots that say there is no way they will give me their sympathy..................I don't want your sympathy!!!!!!!!!!!

Most say assimilate, does that mean foreging my ancestry, my culture my language? This is the homeland of our People/cultures, if we loose our culture here its not as if my great, great, great garndchildren can hop on a plane and take off to another part of the world to relearn like very other nationality can. I don't want my culture to be viewed by my grandchildren in damn museum. For the record, I've worked me entire life and paid my taxes, so provide some constructive criticism, please.

This will escalate and lives will be lost and sadly, it will be lives on our side of the fence, again. Its been stated by another member that the military is on notice, I've been told by a friend in the military this is occuring, so its just a matter of time. Which is sad, but people in other parts of the world have risen and laid their lives on the line, I guess if thats what it takes, thats what it takes.


I guess we all hang on for the ride and see what happens after the big bang.

[Kyle]

Simple answer...natives will never be satisfied. They could have the whole world and they would still complain about something.

[Mb-MBR]

Originally Posted by great white whaler

I Just found out i am half indian

Better change your Title.............oh and welcome brother!!!

[score]

Don't count me in in that "we imperialists" thing. But, both Indian bands and government have attempted to change the treaties over the years. Nothing is written in stone.

[bessiedog]

Yes... Contracts CAN be renegotiated...


Ifmthats the case.... Then letsndo it!

Both sides stick to it!



Memo... Do not type while on a ipad on a treadmill...


I just fell off.... Ow!

[bear-scat]

We are all Canadians, one set of rules and standards for all know matter of skin color, ancestory.....everybody treated the same, what ever happened a couple hundred years ago...get over it...Everyone has a job, everyone pays taxes,no handouts, no special privleges for anybody...EVERYONE THE SAME, This SH#T is getting sickening!!!!! Some smug looking F##K from maintoba says they will bring the country economics to its knees, by doing what...gonna go on strike...YA!!....If everyone has a job there will be know time for any demonstrations that are going on. And yes this includes the white trash that are to LAZY to work and figure they should get welfare!! As far as more imagrants coming in wanting breaks----NO VACANCY

[great white whaler]

Originally Posted by Mb-MBR

Better change your Title.............oh and welcome brother!!!

Dont ya think the name is fitting ?

[Kurt505]

If FN truly want change, then it must be changed from the ground up, starting with treaty rights that were given in a time and age that are greatly different from today. If they are willing to give up some rights that are outdated in order to have new, more realistic rights then I think we should sit down for a realistic bargaining agreement. It has to be a fair agreement, one that is realistic in modern day for it to be widely accepted by Canadians.

[Alberta Bigbore]

Neither side will ever be satisfied. Its human nature.

[Kurt505]

Originally Posted by Alberta Bigbore

Neither side will ever be satisfied. Its human nature.

It worked for a while, maybe a 25 year review/ update should be part of a new agreement.

[pikergolf]

So.... What exactly do natives want to be satisfied?
http://www.documentcloud.org/documen...consensus.html

[bessiedog]

Good discussion.

Dialogue is essential here, and extremism needs to hold off.

I sure would like someone to educate me on the contract law rule of law obligation piece here.

25 year reconsult sounds ok to me?

I think I broke sumpin.. And I got hockey.


I tried to nerd out and read the last royal commission...
Couldn't do it. Too ADHD.

Need Colez notes.

[CanuckShooter]

Originally Posted by Alberta Bigbore

Neither side will ever be satisfied. Its human nature.

Not to mention, there is a huge disparity in power...it's the golden rule. He who holds the gold rules.