Fish and Wildlife Wolf Cull within RFMA - Page 2

nube · #31 12-21-2016, 04:59 PM

Is it possible to sue the Govt over this? Do you think it would be a valid lawsuit? Trappers that have their area wiped out of fur bearing animals and taken money out of the trappers pocket. Wonder if there would be a possibility of success if one was started. Maybe it would wake the Govt up either way......

kingrat · #32 12-21-2016, 05:28 PM

You want to sue the government for killing wolves on government land? Ya it sucks but I'm sure there's nothing you can do about it.

nube · #33 12-21-2016, 06:50 PM

I'm thinking outside the box. Ya it sounds dumb but when are we going to fight back guys? When is enough going to be enough?
From what I have seen the last couple years on this forum is we are real good at sticking our heads in the sand and taking what is fed to us...
Enjoy it while you got it boys and girls because its all going to be gone soon.
Pretty obvious where things are headed with the way the antis are pecking away and the way the Gov't controls things.
So laugh if you want at my hair brained ideas. No prob but I don't see much for ideas getting floated around. We don't have much of an offence do we?

Wolftrapper · #34 12-21-2016, 07:20 PM

Maybe the Govt has listened to all the people complaining about the wolves for the last few years.

On our line, my partner and I have had great success the last few years with Wolves. I think we've kept the numbers in check really well.
Maybe there are areas where trappers, hunters, ranchers, etc haven't had as much luck or success.
So let them cull a few. Sorry but I don't see what the big problem is.
Why should there be any compensation?

walking buffalo · #35 12-21-2016, 09:15 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by nube

I'm thinking outside the box. Ya it sounds dumb but when are we going to fight back guys? When is enough going to be enough?
From what I have seen the last couple years on this forum is we are real good at sticking our heads in the sand and taking what is fed to us...
Enjoy it while you got it boys and girls because its all going to be gone soon.
Pretty obvious where things are headed with the way the antis are pecking away and the way the Gov't controls things.
So laugh if you want at my hair brained ideas. No prob but I don't see much for ideas getting floated around. We don't have much of an offence do we?

Not putting down your brainstorm, just posing some questions that may validate the concept.

What would you (trappers) be suing for, lost potential income?
Or something else, like inhumane practices or conservation concerns.... ?

Could you prove that you consistently make a profit trapping wolves?

Would a similar lawsuit be applicable to other wildlife resources?
Eg, Should Ouftitters sue on the grounds the government is cutting into their potential profits by implementing a cull on deer or elk?

nube · #36 12-21-2016, 09:22 PM

Good Questions and as you can tell it wasn't much of a brainstorm lol
It's kinda hard to battle the Govt but there has to be more being done than what we are doing.
I do not understand their logic in so many ways.
I was just thinking yesterday as to why they feel these Caribou are more important than our sheep herds? You dont see them pounding wolves and cougars for the sake of a "declining" sheep herd in their mind.
I find it interesting that they are not open to other ideas to help clean up some wolves.
You know a lot more Law than I do Dale and if you think there is something of substance in my whacked thinking then I am all ears lol

M shooter · #37 12-21-2016, 09:38 PM

there are a couple of reasons for compensation. They supposedly have been working on trying to implement this program for 3-4 years but have never made mention of it until we received a letter dated November 30 informing us a program starting in december. By the time we received the letter, equipment and layouts are already in place. If they had engaged earlier it would have been a different story.
If we knew they were coming in to decimate the wolfs we would have managed the wolves differently.

If this was a grazing lease and they suddenly said to the lease holder as he was about to put his 100 cows out after he spent all summer fixin fence and water bowls, sorry you can only put out 10 this year.....sorry. What do you think the response would be.

Then there is simply the P.R angle. Can you imagine someone going ice fishing to find a whole pack of wolves dead lying on the ice rotting.

I am not saying I am against the program. I do think they need to do something, it is just rolled out very very poorly.

walking buffalo · #38 12-21-2016, 09:54 PM

The most valuable substance is your passion.
I pray that you never lose it.

Having people like you actually doing things like trapping wolves is critical to keeping this culture alive.

When it comes to wolves and culls, there are many pitfalls that the government has dug themselves. They know where they are and are skilled at avoiding the trap.

As was shown with the "new" trapping deal, the politicians have no stake in the game of wildlife management, it is all being done behind closed doors by the bureaucrats, political affiliation is irrelevant. Recently these civil servants were able to wrest the last semblance of public consultation to the grave without a peep from our stakeholder representatives.

Until the troops (hunters and trappers) demand our organization leaders to demand real consultation, we will not have a chance.

I hate to say it, like REALLY hate to say it after years of effort trying to throw the ball in the sky for all to see,
but our stakeholder reps dropped the ball down one of those pits made by the government bureaucrats.

We have to start at the start again. We need to get the ball back.

nube · #39 12-21-2016, 10:36 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by walking buffalo

The most valuable substance is your passion.
I pray that you never lose it.

Having people like you actually doing things like trapping wolves is critical to keeping this culture alive.

When it comes to wolves and culls, there are many pitfalls that the government has dug themselves. They know where they are and are skilled at avoiding the trap.

As was shown with the "new" trapping deal, the politicians have no stake in the game of wildlife management, it is all being done behind closed doors by the bureaucrats, political affiliation is irrelevant. Recently these civil servants were able to wrest the last semblance of public consultation to the grave without a peep from our stakeholder representatives.

Until the troops (hunters and trappers) demand our organization leaders to demand real consultation, we will not have a chance.

I hate to say it, like REALLY hate to say it after years of effort trying to throw the ball in the sky for all to see,
but our stakeholder reps dropped the ball down one of those pits made by the government bureaucrats.

We have to start at the start again. We need to get the ball back.

Duck and Run now Dale!!! You will now be belittled, mud thrown at and stepped on by the majority on here for saying that lol Been there done that....
But what you say is %100 correct.
I've basically given in now and hope I can spend the rest of my life enjoying my trapline and the outdoors. I suspect in 20 years, maybe less , maybe more it is going to look real ugly for the passions we have today. I've come to the conclusion my line will never be past on to anyone and trapping will be a story told in a book for my grandkids to read about.

HunterDave · #40 12-21-2016, 11:16 PM

Why would the gobbermint not consult with stakeholders wrt this cull.....specifically, the ATA? Obviously, this is something that effects Trappers and it only makes sense to me that they would at least discuss this with our representatives at the ATA. If the gobbermint doesn't think that any consultation with the ATA is required, then that's a problem IMO.

walking buffalo · #41 12-21-2016, 11:24 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by HunterDave

Why would the gobbermint not consult with stakeholders wrt this cull.....specifically, the ATA? Obviously, this is something that effects Trappers and it only makes sense to me that they would at least discuss this with our representatives at the ATA. If the gobbermint doesn't think that any consultation with the ATA is required, then that's a problem IMO.

I had this answered by a top level "servant".

Efficiency.

IMO, the stakeholder reps are responsible for letting these public servants change the system to one that does not require PUBLIC stakeholder involvement. They did not head the warnings and fell into the trap.

Just wait to see what is going to happen regarding Hunting....

waterninja · #42 12-22-2016, 11:17 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by nube

I'm thinking outside the box. Ya it sounds dumb but when are we going to fight back guys? When is enough going to be enough?
From what I have seen the last couple years on this forum is we are real good at sticking our heads in the sand and taking what is fed to us...
Enjoy it while you got it boys and girls because its all going to be gone soon.
Pretty obvious where things are headed with the way the antis are pecking away and the way the Gov't controls things.
So laugh if you want at my hair brained ideas. No prob but I don't see much for ideas getting floated around. We don't have much of an offence do we?

Thinking outside the box never hurt anyone. I can see how this is frustrating you and many other trappers. Problem is it's next to impossible to fight the people who make the rules (and can change them if need be). Also, there may be other agenda's that are in play, and a trappers concern's are probably near the bottom of the list.
It does not just affect trappers. I predict that in 20 years there will be very few lakes left to fish in AB, and in 50 practically none. Same with hunting. New regs and dwindling big game, not to mention fewer places to hunt, will pretty well put an end to hunting as we know it.

Big Grey Wolf · #43 12-23-2016, 09:37 AM

As a trapper I do not like the Govt just going onto traplines to do a wolf cull. However we are now way above a good balance in wolf population in the province. The number is around 7000 wolves. The biologist feel 3-4000 is a more sustainable level to not devastate the elk, moose, caribou and deer population. Thus with very low prices and large number of man hours to prepare a wolf pelt we trappers will never be able to reduce population to the required level. A proper bounty/incentive in the $500-$1000 range would sure help the cull and save Alberta tax payer significant amount of money.

Wolftrapper · #44 12-23-2016, 09:52 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Big Grey Wolf

As a trapper I do not like the Govt just going onto traplines to do a wolf cull. However we are now way above a good balance in wolf population in the province. The number is around 7000 wolves. The biologist feel 3-4000 is a more sustainable level to not devastate the elk, moose, caribou and deer population. Thus with very low prices and large number of man hours to prepare a wolf pelt we trappers will never be able to reduce population to the required level. A proper bounty/incentive in the $500-$1000 range would sure help the cull and save Alberta tax payer significant amount of money.

No offence intended at all, but as trappers, there isn't really any money in any of it. We trap because we love the way of life, the history, etc.
We shouldn't be selective on our lines just because a certain animal is to much work.
Not all of us require money to act. It seems some of the newer, younger trappers on this forum need that along with being noticed.
How about beaver? What do we get for a top grade pelt? Not much and a lot of work goes into skinning and fleshing one. At least for me, maybe I'm no good at it, lol.

Anyway the situation now isn't maybe the best, I don't know. But at least they are doing something to keep high numbers in check.
It's going to cost money no matter how it's done.

Have a great day everyone. I have traps to set and check now.

RockyMountainMusic · #45 12-23-2016, 10:55 AM

Sadly many of you are right on watching the last of our passions be taken from us as we stand and watch it in the near future. As most of you know we have put in tireless hours and effort in stopping this joke and so far it is just being spread into your trapping country now which we knew was coming. There is legal action to be taken the rouble is getting all involved and the cost, the ATA should be involved and they say they are in talks with GOA but this shows clearly they are not or don't mean anything on the GOA's eyes. Then again they rely on GOV money so big surprise ( I'm not bashing ATA as I understand the volunteers involved and the time and effort it takes) but if we don't have them for support who do we have. How is it that the GOV can break laws and get away with it? It makes it ok because they are the GOV? If you or I left a fur bearer to Rot or Incinerated hundreds of Furs from cougars to Grizz etc we would be in jail. If you killed a moose out of season to feed your family or kept a bull trout to eat they would throw you behind bars but its ok for them to do all these things. Just like others have said they blame the wolf but there is no action against other predators like grizzlies/cougars etc to save other species . There is no biology in AB its sick. This world is retarded

nube · #46 12-23-2016, 11:22 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Wolftrapper

No offence intended at all, but as trappers, there isn't really any money in any of it. We trap because we love the way of life, the history, etc.
We shouldn't be selective on our lines just because a certain animal is to much work.
Not all of us require money to act. It seems some of the newer, younger trappers on this forum need that along with being noticed.
How about beaver? What do we get for a top grade pelt? Not much and a lot of work goes into skinning and fleshing one. At least for me, maybe I'm no good at it, lol.

Anyway the situation now isn't maybe the best, I don't know. But at least they are doing something to keep high numbers in check.
It's going to cost money no matter how it's done.

Have a great day everyone. I have traps to set and check now.

You are right we shouldn't be selective but there is also bad business practice as well. You might have a bank account to alow you to trap as a hobbie and do it for nothing but many do not. I myself don't like to do things for free and loose money. That's not good business!
But I also enjoy trapping as well.
I am not sure where you're seeing that the newer younger trappers are in it for the money? I don't see that. It sure as heck isn't my main objective. I spent the spring and fall trapping beaver and have been hitting the wolves pretty good the last 2 years. I've probably made enough to break even or better with a few lucky sales with my wolves.

hunterdan44 · #47 12-23-2016, 11:28 AM

The poison bait sites are the worst thing. Just boggles the mind , let the trappers have the pelts and utilize the resources.

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

HunterDave · #48 12-23-2016, 02:44 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Wolftrapper

No offence intended at all, but as trappers, there isn't really any money in any of it. We trap because we love the way of life, the history, etc.
We shouldn't be selective on our lines just because a certain animal is to much work.
Not all of us require money to act. It seems some of the newer, younger trappers on this forum need that along with being noticed.
How about beaver? What do we get for a top grade pelt? Not much and a lot of work goes into skinning and fleshing one. At least for me, maybe I'm no good at it, lol.

Anyway the situation now isn't maybe the best, I don't know. But at least they are doing something to keep high numbers in check.
It's going to cost money no matter how it's done.

Have a great day everyone. I have traps to set and check now.

Careful painting all trappers with the same brush, Wolftrapper. Lots of guys consider trapping a business and do very well at it. Sometimes I wish that I was 10 years younger so I could go harder and generate more income from it. To me, operating at a loss and saying that you are only doing it because you enjoy the lifestyle is a bit of a cop out for not going hard. With all this talk about RFMA's being under utilized by guys who just want hunting camps, a trapper who is just going through the motions with no concern for turning a profit isn't much better IMO.

WRT wolf bounties. As much as I enjoy trapping, I would not leave my local $100/day (?) coyote trapping business to go trap wolves 300 kms away (Cold Lake) for just what I'd get for the pelt at auction. If the rules allowed me to participate in a $500 to $1000 bounty it is something that I might seriously consider doing. It'd be a lot more work but the potential to make decent money after expenses is a strong motivator. I don't know anyone, despite their love for trapping, who would drop what they are doing to pursue a potentially money losing venture. Folks that can must have a healthier bank account than mine.....lol.

I wholeheartedly agree that the populations of all furbearers should be managed despite the value of them or the work involved with trapping and putting them up. For me a beaver is worth $40 to $50 and that makes it worth my while. Similarly, muskrats are only worth about $3 each but I can catch them in bunches so to me it is worthwhile trapping them. Despite my love for trapping, if they were worthless I wouldn't be putting in much effort to trap them if it cost me money to do it. To each their own I guess.

Wolftrapper · #49 12-23-2016, 03:14 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by HunterDave

Careful painting all trappers with the same brush, Wolftrapper. Lots of guys consider trapping a business and do very well at it. Sometimes I wish that I was 10 years younger so I could go harder and generate more income from it. To me, operating at a loss and saying that you are only doing it because you enjoy the lifestyle is a bit of a cop out for not going hard. With all this talk about RFMA's being under utilized by guys who just want hunting camps, a trapper who is just going through the motions with no concern for turning a profit isn't much better IMO.

WRT wolf bounties. As much as I enjoy trapping, I would not leave my local $100/day (?) coyote trapping business to go trap wolves 300 kms away (Cold Lake) for just what I'd get for the pelt at auction. If the rules allowed me to participate in a $500 to $1000 bounty it is something that I might seriously consider doing. It'd be a lot more work but the potential to make decent money after expenses is a strong motivator. I don't know anyone, despite their love for trapping, who would drop what they are doing to pursue a potentially money losing venture. Folks that can must have a healthier bank account than mine.....lol.

I wholeheartedly agree that the populations of all furbearers should be managed despite the value of them or the work involved with trapping and putting them up. For me a beaver is worth $40 to $50 and that makes it worth my while. Similarly, muskrats are only worth about $3 each but I can catch them in bunches so to me it is worthwhile trapping them. Despite my love for trapping, if they were worthless I wouldn't be putting in much effort to trap them if it cost me money to do it. To each their own I guess.

Not painting with the same brush at all. I'm not sure where you get that from.
Just responding to a previous poster and to a couple that complain about everything on here.
Anyway I won't say anymore as it's pointless as some like to go around in circles and I don't have the time or willingness to do the same.
Have a safe, good year out there.

HunterDave · #50 12-23-2016, 03:48 PM

I wasn't arguing or taking a shot at you, Wolftrapper. I was just pointing out how trapping is a business for many, myself included, and that there is very good money in it if you want to put in the work. That was in response to your statement that there really is no money in trapping. I thought it important because I think that there are some fellas that are okay with operating at a loss and don't really understand where fellas doing it for a living are coming from on a lot of issues. I didn't mean to ruffle anyone's feathers.

There is no tone to posts on the internet that's why I like to use emojis.

357xp · #51 12-23-2016, 07:30 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Big Grey Wolf

As a trapper I do not like the Govt just going onto traplines to do a wolf cull. However we are now way above a good balance in wolf population in the province. The number is around 7000 wolves. The biologist feel 3-4000 is a more sustainable level to not devastate the elk, moose, caribou and deer population. Thus with very low prices and large number of man hours to prepare a wolf pelt we trappers will never be able to reduce population to the required level. A proper bounty/incentive in the $500-$1000 range would sure help the cull and save Alberta tax payer significant amount of money.

What really gets me is how they put a number on the amount of a species we have in the province. I don't think they even are close. Might work for down south, but there is a lot of bush up here, there's no way they really know the numbers. Example; Alberta grizzles......nuff said

F Mandolin · #52 12-24-2016, 09:28 PM

I don't know what you trappers want and can't imagine anyone who has ever skinned and stretched a wolf wanting to do it today for next to nothing. As for bounties they are just a giant sinkhole with no results. I don't want my tax money being wasted on them and i think the fish and game got clued in when the Government refused to even look at their bounty proposal for the province. From what I have seen trappers can't make a dent in their numbers anyway, but then the government will get shut down long before they do either.

jawa · #53 12-25-2016, 08:42 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by F Mandolin

I don't know what you trappers want and can't imagine anyone who has ever skinned and stretched a wolf wanting to do it today for next to nothing. As for bounties they are just a giant sinkhole with no results. I don't want my tax money being wasted on them and i think the fish and game got clued in when the Government refused to even look at their bounty proposal for the province. From what I have seen trappers can't make a dent in their numbers anyway, but then the government will get shut down long before they do either.

Trolling me thinks.......I will bite whats cheaper helicopter shooting or paying a bounty.
Whats more ethical paying a couple hundred for a bounty and haveing the hides get used or leaving them rot?
Whats more target specific snares ,and traps in the right hands, Hunters baiting and shooting or poison?
My opinion put a bounty mutch cheaper
To help deter fraud make people drop a pin or way mark on phone or Gps with date at least proves they were in the area

F Mandolin · #54 12-25-2016, 09:42 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by jawa

Trolling me thinks.......I will bite whats cheaper helicopter shooting or paying a bounty.
Whats more ethical paying a couple hundred for a bounty and haveing the hides get used or leaving them rot?
Whats more target specific snares ,and traps in the right hands, Hunters baiting and shooting or poison?
My opinion put a bounty mutch cheaper
To help deter fraud make people drop a pin or way mark on phone or Gps with date at least proves they were in the area

When a cull is implemented it's for a confined area and attempts to remove all wolves. According to scientists trappers and hunters combined cannot take more than 10-15% of a wolf population so a bounty would be cheaper but accomplish nothing. When the proper poison is used by professionals it is selective towards wolves, coyotes, and foxes only and much more selective than snaring. There is no comparison for effectiveness. This is not being done now by fish and wildlife in the Smoky and i doubt they will change in this new cull. They know everything. Merry Xmas

kingrat · #55 12-25-2016, 10:10 AM

Well according to scientists, 35 percent of all percentages are wrong....if we're being scientific that is.

Torkdiesel · #56 12-25-2016, 11:50 AM

Actually a wolf cull would be the most cost effective solution of them all. They would only pay for dead wolves, not wasted poison or fly days where nothing was killed.

F Mandolin · #57 12-25-2016, 01:40 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Torkdiesel

Actually a wolf cull would be the most cost effective solution of them all. They would only pay for dead wolves, not wasted poison or fly days where nothing was killed.

A cull is required to remove all wolves or a designated percentage which is quite high.

Torkdiesel · #58 12-25-2016, 01:52 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by F Mandolin

A cull is required to remove all wolves or a designated percentage which is quite high.

Sorry. That was supposed to say a wolf cull by bounty. My phone left out that part.

F Mandolin · #59 12-25-2016, 02:04 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Torkdiesel

Sorry. That was supposed to say a wolf cull by bounty. My phone left out that part.

The first thing a cull has to do is remove the wolves [600] this winter in the Cold Lake area. Are you proposing the trappers in the area can accomplish this or the company selected be paid per wolf?

Torkdiesel · #60 12-25-2016, 02:13 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by F Mandolin

The first thing a cull has to do is remove the wolves [600] this winter in the Cold Lake area. Are you proposing the trappers in the area can accomplish this or the company selected be paid per wolf?

Both. In areas where there are RFMA I'm certain the trappers could do it. Depending on how many lines are actually in the cull area that is.
Trapping a few wolves here and there is pretty easy and not overly expensive, but a mass cull of big numbers is pricey. Not worth it for just the pelts alone.