Outfitter Illegally Sold Bighorn Sheep Permits to an American?

[FCLightning]

Originally Posted by Rocky7

Lenz, who lives in Caroline, Alta., said he will appeal the decision, saying it sets a bad precedent in allowing non-residents to control the lucrative hunting allotments.

Lenz made the deal with the devil and is wanting to make out like the savior?
If it weren't for the greed on the part of those outfitters in the industry hawking the permits to whomever and signing their soul away in "deals" he wouldn't be in this mess.

[avb3]

Originally Posted by FCLightning

Sounds like SRD needs to be appealing the decision.

Or pull the permits, which they can. Or cancel the allocation. Problem solved. OH, and not compensation, because that of course will be the next hue and cry.

From the Wildlife Regs:

Transfer of allocations
55(1) A class S outfitter‑guide who holds allocations of non‑resident/non‑resident alien trophy sheep special licences may only transfer
(a) all of the allocations of those trophy sheep special licences held by him to one transferee only, or
(b) either
(i) with the approval of the Minister, some or all of the allocations of those trophy sheep special licences, other than those referred to in subclause (ii), held by him, or
(ii) all of the allocations of those trophy sheep special licences held by him that are valid only in an open season that is restricted to hunting with a bow and arrow only,
or both,
and only if the transfer is made to a person who is eligible to hold a Class S outfitter‑guide permit and is approved by the Minister.
(2) An outfitter‑guide (big game) may transfer all or any of his allocations that are not of non‑resident/non‑resident alien trophy sheep special licences to another outfitter‑guide (big game) specified by that outfitter‑guide, if the Minister approves the transfer.
(3) On the death of an individual holder or the liquidation or winding-up of a corporate holder of an allocation, the allocation may be transferred to a person who is eligible under section 54(4) to be issued it if the Minister approves the transfer in writing.

[elkhunter11]

Lenz, who lives in Caroline, Alta., said he will appeal the decision, saying it sets a bad precedent in allowing non-residents to control the lucrative hunting allotments.

The solution is simple, since it has been decided that an American legally owns the allocations, which is contrary to the rules concerning the allocation system, SRD should revoke the allocations. Since the American broke the rules by owning the allocations, he should forfeit them with no compensation.

[pikergolf]

Originally Posted by elkhunter11

The solution is simple, since it has been decided that an American legally owns the allocations, which is contrary to the rules concerning the allocation system, SRD should revoke the allocations. Since the American broke the rules by owning the allocations, he should forfeit them with no compensation.

Agreed, and what are you going to do with Lenz?

[Rocky7]

Originally Posted by elkhunter11

The solution is simple, since it has been decided that an American legally owns the allocations, which is contrary to the rules concerning the allocation system, SRD should revoke the allocations. Since the American broke the rules by owning the allocations, he should forfeit them with no compensation.

I agree with your point, but I think the problem should be pulled out by the roots.

[Rocky7]

Originally Posted by FCLightning

Lenz made the deal with the devil and is wanting to make out like the savior?

I intended the quote to be read thus:

Lenz, who lives in Caroline, Alta., said he will appeal the decision, saying it sets a bad precedent in allowing non-residents to control the lucrative hunting allotments.

Otherwise, yeah, Lenz can't complain. He was part of the illicit scheme.

[elkhunter11]

Agreed, and what are you going to do with Lenz?

I wouldn't do anything with him, he has likely learned his lesson. Perhaps this will make other outfitters think twice before getting involved with American investors.

[ishootbambi]

still no transcripts, but the judge saw right through the bullsheet it seems. the judge thinks lenz was the front man for an american to buy tags. this appears to be no loan at all, but rather a fraudluent attempt to circumvent the laws. absolutely disgusting. IF everything reported by the papers is correct, lenz and morgan both should be charged with fraud, and since the tags are currently under illegal ownership, they should be revoked. given that even lenz isnt arguing that he owns them and the money was a loan, i find it hard to believe the things im reading here. i dont give a crap if he is a nice guy or someones friend.....its fraud plain and simple. lenz signing a trust agreement seals it.

[32-40win]

That was my line of thought in this deal ISB, Lenz was a front man who hadn't anted up to the deal. Seems like both of them are pulling a scam, Lenz double dipping and misreprentation, the other setting up the front to control the tags in the first place. Burn 'em both.

[walking buffalo]

Some days it sucks to be right.



This is outrageous!

APOS and F&W need a serious *sskicking!


As I mentioned, the courts can and DO make New Law.


The Alberta Government MUST step in as an intervener and fight this decision.



Mountain Ti,

Sorry, I take that back. I forgot that you are a proud supporter of game farming, paid access and the complete privitization of wildlife. You must be very happy with this court decision. You won this round.


http://www.calgarysun.com/2012/06/20...unting-permits

TV’s Mantracker must turn over two valuable Alberta hunting permits to a U.S. businessman and relinquish four years of profits he made on them, a Calgary judge ruled Wednesday.

Court of Queen’s Bench Justice Bryan Mahoney said Bruce Morgan was the rightful owner of the Bighorn sheep hunting licences and was entitled to have them held by any qualified Alberta guide.

Mahoney ruled Chad Savage Lenz breached a trust agreement he had with Morgan to handle the permits on behalf of the Anchorage, Alaska, resident.

Lenz has held the permits since 2008 after he claimed Morgan breached their contractual deal the previous hunting season by transferring them to another Class S outfitter.

But Mahoney said trust agreements, signed by Lenz in 2002 and again in 2007, allowed Morgan to transfer the tags as he saw fit.

“This was not done (by Lenz) and by not doing what he was entrusted to do, Mr. Lenz breached his (trust) duty to Mr. Morgan,” Mahoney said.

The judge also ruled there was no lease agreement in place in 2007 for Lenz to hold the permits and use them to sell hunting trips to non-Alberta residents.

Lenz had countersued Morgan after the permits were transferred to outfitter Frank Simpson and the defendant was forced to cancel two hunting bookings for the fall for $20,000 and $25,000 respectively.

“Mr. Morgan can rely on the trust declaration … permitting him to transfer the sheep (hunting) allotment to Mr. Simpson,” Mahoney said.

Because that wasn’t done, Lenz, who took over as the star of OLN’s Mantracker last month, was able to earn profits on the permits which should have gone to Morgan, he said.

The judge ordered Lenz to pay Morgan the money he earned between 2008 and 2011 on the tags.

Morgan’s lawyers, Teddy Nobles and Colin Roberts, estimate that will likely exceed $100,000.

Lenz, who lives in Caroline, Alta., said he will appeal the decision, saying it sets a bad precedent in allowing non-residents to control the lucrative hunting allotments.

“What I’m still saying is that an American can’t hold the permits,” Lenz told the Sun.

“I’ve already made an appointment with the (environment) minister and we will be appealing the judgement.”

[rem338win]

Sounds like we have a bunch of tax payers that have never used a loop hole or stretched a technicality for their gain. Self righteous saints on squeaky pedestals, crying hypocrits tears. All of Alberta's resources are treated in the exact same manner, and you choose to cry hardest over this one because you benifit the least from it. Oil, gas, mining, timber, agriculture, whatever. Pic one to exploit but no the other. Suck back another Timmies Canuck it's our way.........

[avb3]

Originally Posted by rem338win

Sounds like we have a bunch of tax payers that have never used a loop hole or stretched a technicality for their gain. Self righteous saints on squeaky pedestals, crying hypocrits tears. All of Alberta's resources are treated in the exact same manner, and you choose to cry hardest over this one because you benifit the least from it. Oil, gas, mining, timber, agriculture, whatever. Pic one to exploit but no the other. Suck back another Timmies Canuck it's our way.........

Your wrong. Wildlife is treated differently by law.

I quoted the relevant section back in post 152

[rem338win]

Actually I am not. You can keep your words and we'll inspect the actions. Didn't respond to the context of my post either way.

[outdoorsmen101]

Lenz..yep a real "stand up guy"

[elkhunter11]

Sounds like we have a bunch of tax payers that have never used a loop hole or stretched a technicality for their gain. Self righteous saints on squeaky pedestals, crying hypocrits tears. All of Alberta's resources are treated in the exact same manner, and you choose to cry hardest over this one because you benifit the least from it. Oil, gas, mining, timber, agriculture, whatever. Pic one to exploit but no the other. Suck back another Timmies Canuck it's our way.........

Morgan was using a technicality to get around the Alberta regulations, and all was supposedly legal until the judge's decision. However, now that the judge has ruled that Morgan legally owns the allocations, Morgan is technically in violation of the rules. Morgan used a technicality to get around the rules, but now another technicality(the judges decision) puts him in clear violation of the rules. It's no different with taxes, if what you are doing is technically legal, you are good to go, but if something changes that makes what you are doing technically illegal, you will be held responsible.

The judges ruling has exposed the system as the sham that it really is, and changes need to be made.

[Deer Hunter]

Laws get ammended all the time in this province not only because of a courts decision but because of public pressure and politics. Unfortunately the AFGA's pressure on the govt/SRD has been focused on "bringing your dog big game hunting" and "resident trophy sheep draw/wait times/whatever". It is time to get in the face of APOS and SRD with respect to excessive non resident opportunity and the criminal outfitting businesses which has an overall encompassing affect on the way all resident hunters are treated.

Originally Posted by Deer Hunter

Laws get ammended all the time in this province not only because of a courts decision but because of public pressure and politics. Unfortunately the AFGA's pressure on the govt/SRD has been focused on "bringing your dog big game hunting" and "resident trophy sheep draw/wait times/whatever". It is time to get in the face of APOS and SRD with respect to excessive non resident opportunity and the criminal outfitting businesses which has an overall encompassing affect on the way all resident hunters are treated.

You should really become more familiar with the AFGA....you are missing a lot of the battles they are fighting and opportunities they are trying to create. Sad that people criticize such a good organization with an obvious lack of knowledge of what they do. What is it that you are doing again for resident hunters in this province other than taking uninformed pot shots from the sidelines? Perhaps you should make yourself aware of how many proposals AFGA has before AGMAG right now and you wouldn't look so bitter and foolish.

[huntin]

Originally Posted by outdoorsmen101

Lenz..yep a real "stand up guy"

I'm sure your a real great guy yourself and I'm sure if you give me your real name I could dig up your past.

[FCLightning]

Originally Posted by sheephunter

You should really become more familiar with the AFGA....you are missing a lot of the battles they are fighting and opportunities they are trying to create. Sad that people criticize such a good organization with an obvious lack of knowledge of what they do. What is it that you are doing again for resident hunters in this province other than taking uninformed pot shots from the sidelines? Perhaps you should make yourself aware of how many proposals AFGA has before AGMAG right now and you wouldn't look so bitter and foolish.

So you are saying that AFGA has been trying to bring to light the problems with the outfitting industry and the allocation system? Where do I find info on that?

Originally Posted by FCLightning

So you are saying that AFGA has been trying to bring to light the problems with the outfitting industry and the allocation system? Where do I find info on that?

Become a member. Talk with your club hunting chair. Talk with the provincial hunting chair. Look at the resolutions passed at conference this year. Become an active/involved member.

[FCLightning]

I am. Didn't answer the question.

Originally Posted by FCLightning

I am. Didn't answer the question.

See my edit above.

[Deer Hunter]

Originally Posted by sheephunter

You should really become more familiar with the AFGA....you are missing a lot of the battles they are fighting and opportunities they are trying to create. Sad that people criticize such a good organization with an obvious lack of knowledge of what they do. What is it that you are doing again for resident hunters in this province other than taking uninformed pot shots from the sidelines? Perhaps you should make yourself aware of how many proposals AFGA has before AGMAG right now and you wouldn't look so bitter and foolish.

Im a member but obvioulsy need to get more involved. Im sorry, the proof is in the pudding here with the second class treatemnt of resident hunters. This isnt a new problem, rather one that hasnt been dealt with affectively for many years. Playing the blame game isnt very affective either i agree, but what has been happening isnt working very well considering the mess we are in today.

Your name calling at me specifically is par for the course at how you like to treat others who have a differing opinion. Smarten up SH. Youre a resident too, no?

Originally Posted by Deer Hunter

Im a member but obvioulsy need to get more involved. Im sorry, the proof is in the pudding here with the second class treatemnt of resident hunters. This isnt a new problem, rather one that hasnt been dealt with affectively for many years. Playing the blame game isnt very affective either i agree, but what has been happening isnt working very well considering the mess we are in today.

Your name calling at me specifically is par for the course at how you like to treat others who have a differing opinion. Smarten up SH. Youre a resident too, no?

Absolutely I'm a resident hunter and undoubtedly share many of the same concerns as you. I just don't see the point of taking uninformed pot shots at the one group that is working the hardest on our behalf. Yes, you should become more involved. We may not always get our way but I'm sure happy we have a dog in the fight...right now I'd say that dog is a pit bull doing more for residents than you are obviously aware of. Become part of the solution....not the problem.
Why eat our own when there are plenty of others things to sink our teeth into out there?????????

[Deer Hunter]

Originally Posted by sheephunter

Absolutely I'm a resident hunter and undoubtedly share many of the same concerns as you. I just don't see the point of taking uninformed pot shots at the one group that is working the hardest on our behalf. Yes, you should become more involved. We may not always get our way but I'm sure happy we have a dog in the fight...right now I'd say that dog is a pit bull doing more for residents than you are obviously aware of. Become part of the solution....not the problem.
Why eat our own when there are plenty of others things to sink our teeth into out there?????????

So you can take pot shots at me but I cant say anything about the lack of results of an organizination regarding outfitting/non resident hunters???

And now your asking me about eating our own??? I have to stop typing now

[walking buffalo]

So the good news is that now a person of Any Nationality can purchase any Outfitter allocation in Alberta.


Too bad the only Nationality that can't personally use the allocations they purchase is a Alberta resident Canadian.



APOS is responsible for managing the sale of Allocations. They are to blame for allowing the initial 'sale' of these permits from Stricker to the American.



Watch the Alberta governments reactions closely. A failure to respond and fight for an appeal will show that the Alberta government is in favour of selling Outfitter allocations on the international market.

[1899b]

Originally Posted by sheephunter

Absolutely I'm a resident hunter and undoubtedly share many of the same concerns as you. I just don't see the point of taking uninformed pot shots at the one group that is working the hardest on our behalf. Yes, you should become more involved. We may not always get our way but I'm sure happy we have a dog in the fight...right now I'd say that dog is a pit bull doing more for residents than you are obviously aware of. Become part of the solution....not the problem.
Why eat our own when there are plenty of others things to sink our teeth into out there?????????

You may share many of the same concerns but the point of the matter is, you will always be on the side of the "business" part of hunting and not the recreational side like us common folk that don't make a living from the sport.

[nekred]

Wheterher or not you are a recreational hunter, outfitter, game guide, non-resident hunter, outdoor personality we all have more in common.

We all have a vested interest in sustainable wildlife management

We all enjoy hunting

We all enjoy the outdoors.

Some people have the time and opportunity to hunt outside their local area and are willing and able to pay for the priveledge so there is an industry created to provide that priveledge to those willing to pay. It becomes a manner of being able to share the resource so that a few could make a living at it.

Can you imagine if there was not a game guiding/outfitting industry. No non-residents coming up here hunting and everything left for the residents only. Then if every jurisdiction and area did that none of us would have an opportunity whether or not we could afford it to go hunt in areas outside our home jurisdiction.

So while admittedly the APOS system is not perfect it is a management system and is going to always be in a state of improvement. the majority of game guides out there love what they do and there is not a huge amount of money at the end of the day for most guides. The work is seasonal and really not that high of pay when you take into account all the expenses and investment.

Lets look at commonalities instead of differences and learn to share.

Hunting is a very individual activity and we all get annoyed when we run into another person hunting but if we all remember that when we act together it protects our priveledge. I have had run-ins with other hunters and also with outfitters out in the field and some are pleasant and some not so pleasant but the common theme is that if the jealousy or envy gets in the way it usually has an unpleasant end.

Let's keep some envy and jealousy out and look at the situation pragmatically without our own subjective biases.

We are all outdoorsmen.

I see a situation where there are silent partners, backers, and a whole "shadow" group who "own" the public resource because there are inherent loopholes in the system. We never get to see that side until there is a rift that gives us a peek into what is really going on.

As to how this is fixed is a big undertaking, but us picking at each other out of spite and envy is not a solution

[Rackmastr]

Originally Posted by 1899b

You may share many of the same concerns but the point of the matter is, you will always be on the side of the "business" part of hunting and not the recreational side like us common folk that don't make a living from the sport.

Wow theres a bold challenging statement if I've ever seen one...

[walking buffalo]

Originally Posted by nekred

Can you imagine if there was not a game guiding/outfitting industry. No non-residents coming up here hunting and everything left for the residents only.

Many jurisdictions including Alberta allow Non residents to hunt without an Outfitter. Problem solved.