Proposed Home builders licensing?

[dmcbride]

Would these changes make it impossible for someone to build there own house with there own hands?



http://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/edmont...rvey-1.4009931

Focus groups and an online survey are part of Alberta’s push for home builder licensing

The Alberta government is meeting with home builders and consumers and has launched a survey to potentially require builders to have a license.

Currently, there aren't any specific qualifications required to build a home in Alberta — but the provincial government wants to change that.

Licensing would require builders to prove they're not in debt and that they have the skills to construct homes properly.

Municipal Affairs Minister Shaye Anderson says it's to shut down companies who provide bad workmanship and disappear.

"People should be confident that when they're making the biggest financial decision of their life for their family in building a house, that they have someone who's a confident builder," said Anderson.

The province is holding focus groups with various parties involved in the home-building process, including homeowners, builders, engineers and municipalities. They're hoping to receive feedback from all facets of the industry.

Alberta's chapter of the Canadian Home Builders' Association has been pushing for licensing requirements for years. They're also involved in the current focus groups.

T.J. Keil, the association's external relations manager, hopes the potential licensing program is fair and affordable.

"[I'm hoping] that the rules will be clear and that they're enforced in an equal and fair way across the province," said Keil. "You don't want to see a bunch of different regimes pop up from different cities and town to town. That wouldn't really help anybody.

"If any regime was a high cost to comply you're obviously going to drive some of the smaller but reputable builders out. It's going to be a strain for them at a time when the economy is not doing particularly well."

The online survey is open until Mar. 14 and consultations will continue before any legislative amendments are made.

[cowmanbob]

Pretty sure the end result will be to get rid of the small builders.

[fish_e_o]

harder and harder for small operations to get going.

[Okotokian]

I'm sure no expert so am not adamant in my thoughts on this, but people have to get certified for a lot less than building a structure people will invest a great part of their present and future wealth in and also live with their families in. The guy who sells you your mutual funds has to have certain certifications. Ditto your kid's teacher, your doctor....

With regard to putting small builders out of business, it would seem to me that a reasonable compromise would be to grandfather in all builders who have already built a certain number of homes, not been sued, etc.

An additional compromise not to handicap the "do-it-yourselfer" might be that you can build your own residence without any certification whatsoever, but that if you intend to sell the residence later, you must get some sort of very detailed inspection.

[fish_e_o]

Originally Posted by Okotokian

I'm sure no expert so am not adamant in my thoughts on this, but people have to get certified for a lot less than building a structure people will invest a great part of their present and future wealth in and also live with their families in. The guy who sells you your mutual funds has to have certain certifications. Ditto your kid's teacher, your doctor....

With regard to putting small builders out of business, it would seem to me that a reasonable compromise would be to grandfather in all builders who have already built a certain number of homes, not been sued, etc.

An additional compromise not to handicap the "do-it-yourselfer" might be that you can build your own residence without any certification whatsoever, but that if you intend to sell the residence later, you must get some sort of very detailed inspection.

pretty redundant with the new builder insurance that is mandatory.

[masalma]

Originally Posted by fish_e_o

pretty redundant with the new builder insurance that is mandatory.

And the need for permits and inspections.

[Albertadiver]

With the new building code in place and the energy efficiency requirements, it is getting really really tough to build your own home, unless you're already a contractor.

[EZM]

If one of the conditions, as outlined in the OP's original post was to "prove they have no debt" then there would be nobody, or no organization who would qualify.

I bet all major builders have debt. I bet most small builders might have a personal line of credit, a mortgage themselves or a truck payment. They probably have credit or a revolving account at most of the suppliers they use.

If the requirement was to have "a good credit rating with appropriate, secured and ample facilities (a large and secure enough line of credit in good standing) then, that's a different story altogether.

Running a building company you would almost certainly need debt, a revolver and/or a line of credit somewhere to even go pick up 2 packs of shingles from the home depot without using cash.

[Austin]

Another example of "more" govt protecting us from ourselves.

[Coyotebutcher]

As a career carpenter, I feel this is a great move towards high quality houses being built. I've seen plenty of large builders in my neighbourhood putting up fairly high quality houses, and recently have seen smaller builders moving in and basically not following the rules, (garbage everywhere), poor quality builds, etc. The residential construction market definitely needs some governing to keep the fly by night builders in check.

[coreya3212]

Why would any of this be needed? Municipal governments are already required to monitor, inspect all the building that goes on in there districts. Allison already stuck her nose in with the mandatory new home warranty stuff, to try and muscle out the little guy. Will this license to build mean we don't need permits and inspections?

[Albertadiver]

Originally Posted by coreya3212

Will this license to build mean we don't need permits and inspections?

Actually, the new code makes the permitting process even more difficult than it already is. Has to include energy modelling now too, among other things.

Inspectors have been taking lots of courses on the new code and are trying to get familiar with it themselves. This will mean that some interpretations may become more difficult to build.

I took a course on the new code myself as I'm in commercial and multifamily construction and it's a learning curve for sure.

The new mandated BAR reports (Building Assesment Reports provided shortly after the project completion) for common area property in multifamily developments isn't worth the paper they're printed on, but it has allowed for a whole new industry of building 'experts' to write alarmist reports and get condo boards all up in arms. Creating all sorts of headaches. All intended by the gov't to 'protect the home buyer'.

[warriorboy10]

No debt!! Are u kidding me!! I would bet that there are very very few individuals never mind businesses that don't carry some sort of debt in this disastrous province!! The bigger the builder the larger the debt Id have to say!
Interesting to which group is lobbying the Government for such a change??

[rem338win]

Oh wow!! Thanks NDP again for proposing a solution to a problem that doesn't exist! It's amazing how aware you are.

This use be a part of their plan to bring new industry to Alberta.

[rem338win]

Originally Posted by Coyotebutcher

As a career carpenter, I feel this is a great move towards high quality houses being built. I've seen plenty of large builders in my neighbourhood putting up fairly high quality houses, and recently have seen smaller builders moving in and basically not following the rules, (garbage everywhere), poor quality builds, etc. The residential construction market definitely needs some governing to keep the fly by night builders in check.

That is the consumers job not the government. The rules are already there and it's up to the consumer to enforce them.

I'd say as a career carpenter the best thing you can do is have a government supervisor hanging over your shoulder every minute you're on the job. That'd be more of a deterrent to pass poor work that creating greater degrees of bureaucracy.

The worst houses I've seen built have been by the large companies. The small custom builders by far superceded the larger; and what the hell are staged inspections for?

Give it a rest really people. If you're building a 500k home these days and you do your walk through as a consumer with no knowledge of what you're looking for then your a futz.

[ryeguy21]

how blind and stupid do you need to be to believe one off builders arent an issue. Google infinity homes and see how they screwed over many families. I read one place that hundreds of thousands in liens were placed on them alone.

Now their allegedly operating as a new builder/new company.

If you can stop a shady builder from opening up shop numerous times as they bankrupt their other companiez then that would be great.. On the flip side i can see the arguement that these regulations are meant to prevent smaller builders from opening up shop.

Shady builders who dont care about what they build are a rampant problem...

[Coyotebutcher]

Originally Posted by rem338win

That is the consumers job not the government. The rules are already there and it's up to the consumer to enforce them.

I'd say as a career carpenter the best thing you can do is have a government supervisor hanging over your shoulder every minute you're on the job. That'd be more of a deterrent to pass poor work that creating greater degrees of bureaucracy.

The worst houses I've seen built have been by the large companies. The small custom builders by far superceded the larger; and what the hell are staged inspections for?

Give it a rest really people. If you're building a 500k home these days and you do your walk through as a consumer with no knowledge of what you're looking for then your a futz.

I don't think it's fair to expect a consumer to know everything they would need to know in order to avoid getting screwed on a 1/2M$ investment. A person spends that kind of money and spends 30 years paying it off and they had better get a little piece of mind without having to understand all aspects of building code, and inspecting every step of the home they are having built.

You really don't even get to fully inspect your home until delivery (or at least we didn't) and that inspection is typically done when papers are already signed, and money is in the bank. Then you list all the deficiencies to the builder and they delay you until your 1 year is up and they are off the hook and walk away with your $500k.

[super7mag]

Originally Posted by masalma

And the need for permits and inspections.

And a journeymans ticket! More Gov bureaucracy BS

[michaelmicallef]

After dealing with the clowns that built my house I'm for anything that makes home wreckers, I mean "home builders " more acountable and reputable.

[horsepower]

Instead of enforcing existing rules that are currently in place the government is proposing new rules that will benefit large builders, increase costs. Where will these license fees go? Who will regulate licenses?

I don't see a problem here. If I desire to build my own home (and I've built 2) I simply follow the building code and follow (usually exceed) all the rules laid out. Inspectors check every stage of construction and I rely on them throughout the building process to double check that the contractors that I have hired have done everything right.

Im my mind, if you want to ensure the product (home) is built properly then more and thorough inspections should be done.

[leo]

I've been in building construction for 35 years. I'm a red seal journeyman carpenter and a project Superintendent for a well respected contractor. By this legislation I would not be allowed to build one of my children or myself a new house! I would rather see Carpentry listed as a protected trade like electrical, mechanical, plumbing and gas fitting. You cannot pull a permit unless you are a journeyman. This would not raise any associated building costs. What it would do is eliminate a bunch of fly by night framers and so called builders. Right now anyone can build a house, no journeyman status or apprenticeship is required. I quit contracting many years ago for this very reason. I was competing with guys that had a compressor 2 spikers and a skil saw. Called themselves contractors, and got a lot of work. Then when they'd bugger up the home owner would call me back to ask if I would come and fix it.

[Ruger99]

Originally Posted by michaelmicallef

After dealing with the clowns that built my house I'm for anything that makes home wreckers, I mean "home builders " more acountable and reputable.

I had a brutal time with the "builder" that did my house also and I think it would be great if some of them "builders" were not aloud to build also. I need my tickets to do plumbing and gas fitting why should a "home builder" not have to prove that they are capable?

[Ruger99]

Maybe we had the same "builder"

[leo]

Originally Posted by Ruger99

I had a brutal time with the "builder" that did my house also and I think it would be great if some of them "builders" were not aloud to build also. I need my tickets to do plumbing and gas fitting why should a "home builder" not have to prove that they are capable?

It starts with shady developers. They hire the cheapest labor possible and don't do follow up inspections of the structure and envelope.

[ryeguy21]

the one property i own was built by one of the largest builders in alberta. Over the years we have ran into different issues in the condo community where the contractors who needed to warranty the work were bankrupt or no longer in business.

I got to deal with all the trades who came to fix many deficiencies where the vast majority couldnt speak any english at all.

It blew my mind how easily this company refused to fix their deficiencies and how they purposely mislead the condo board to get out of fixing warrantable items.

Licensing isnt fixing this.. there should be a mandatory 3rd party company that automatically does walk throughs to hold builders accountable.. otherwise these bigger builders will continue to be as shady as some of the small contractors.

[Kim473]

Any body can be the main contractor of your own house. You just need to know the right knowledgable people in all the trades that you can hire.

Inspectors ! What a joke most of them are. Not responsible for anything, if something was built wrong and they didn't make you change it. They need to be accountable, unfortunately they are not.

Permits are mostly a money grab thing. sure they help somewhat but realistically, just a tax and a way that the municipality can keep track of things so they can raise your property tax.

[michaelmicallef]

Originally Posted by Kim473

Any body can be the main contractor of your own house. You just need to know the right knowledgable people in all the trades that you can hire.

Inspectors ! What a joke most of them are. Not responsible for anything, if something was built wrong and they didn't make you change it. They need to be accountable, unfortunately they are not.

Permits are mostly a money grab thing. sure they help somewhat but realistically, just a tax and a way that the municipality can keep track of things so they can raise your property tax.

You hit the nail on the head. City of airdrie didn't even reinspect after they found problems because as they put it" they work on the honour system " that's only good if your dealing with honourable people. Inspectors have 0 acountabilty. Had to call them for a building I was doing a HVAC start up because it was passed with no step down regulators to the gas appliances. I called him and he said "well what do you want me to do about it now. It's passed " I said " I will just put your name on my start up report and mention you passed it. And leave the units off labeled as unsafe " . Well guess what, he went back and made sure gas fitter put in regulars. That's just one incident of many I have delt with.

[Albertadiver]

If anyone wants to read up on SCO's and what their role is, along with code of conduct:

http://www.safetycodes.ab.ca/SCO/Pages/default.aspx

[leo]

Originally Posted by ryeguy21

the one property i own was built by one of the largest builders in alberta. Over the years we have ran into different issues in the condo community where the contractors who needed to warranty the work were bankrupt or no longer in business.

I got to deal with all the trades who came to fix many deficiencies where the vast majority couldnt speak any english at all.

It blew my mind how easily this company refused to fix their deficiencies and how they purposely mislead the condo board to get out of fixing warrantable items.

Licensing isnt fixing this.. there should be a mandatory 3rd party company that automatically does walk throughs to hold builders accountable.. otherwise these bigger builders will continue to be as shady as some of the small contractors.

If it was multi storey condos then the owners should have had an architect design it. There should have been an Electrical, Mechanical, civil as well as sprinkler engineer. Everyone of them is responsible to make regular inspections and by issuing C-Schedules, confirming everything is done as per design intent.

Originally Posted by Kim473

Any body can be the main contractor of your own house. You just need to know the right knowledgable people in all the trades that you can hire.

Inspectors ! What a joke most of them are. Not responsible for anything, if something was built wrong and they didn't make you change it. They need to be accountable, unfortunately they are not.

Permits are mostly a money grab thing. sure they help somewhat but realistically, just a tax and a way that the municipality can keep track of things so they can raise your property tax.

Not entirely true. Permits serve several purposes. They ensure the development meets the current land use zoning, they ensure setbacks and drainage are provided, as well as being a legal document stating that the construction will adhere to the Alberta Building Code or local jurisdiction having authority.

[halang_99]

I lived in Sask. for so long I feel like I can interpret ndp .What it means is if your not union you don't work