Alberta budget, and the NDP effect...

[raab]

Originally Posted by HyperMOA

So nothing then? He did not remove any freedoms.

He told you that he would not be held hostage by your union is an infringement on your rights? I think you better actually learn what your rights and Mr. Harper's rights are/were. If it was so tough being employed by Mr. Harper, why did you not seek employment elsewhere? Why not work in a private sector and tell your boss what you were telling the right honourable Mr. Harper? Is it tough to swallow the fact, that the tail doesn't wag the dog?

Foreign workers interfered with your rights? If anything they allowed our society to function at a time when too many people especially within Alberta were too good for many jobs. Abuses within a system are not the fault of Mr. Harper.

I think you need to read the articles. First I didn't work for Harper, and actually do work in the private sector. Second you're completely wrong on Harper infringing on my rights and what his rights are. If he tried that again today it wouldn't stand up in court.

Pertinent quote "On Thursday, April 28, 2016, the Ontario Superior Court ruled that the Harper government violated the Canadian Union of Postal Workers (CUPW) members’ freedom of association and expression by legislating them back to work in June 2011."

http://www.nupge.ca/content/12951/fe...constitutional

Harper hated hard working Canadians, and loved giving breaks to the elites. Easy to see when you look at the TFW's and harrassment of union employees under his watch. I can''t believe people actually wonder how he lost the election. It was very evident when you looked at what was going on. All I can say is good riddance.

[raab]

Originally Posted by bigskinner

Don't worry , any deht acquired to help Albertans is a good thing , its all covered by Govt assets , it don't work like a househole budjet , completely different, they borrow from themselves.

This is totally untrue... the government is amassing debt and we do have to pay interest(debt servicing).

[raab]

Originally Posted by halang_99

Seems like sooner or later everything crashes and burns.We will pickup and rebuild-looks like wildrose is the poor sucker who gets stuck with that

Should be WRP, but who knows. I guess it'll depend on what happens with the PC party here in the next few weeks.

[From The Hip]

Originally Posted by raab

I won't get into specifics, but will just put up a few interesting articles about good ol' Harper.

https://thetyee.ca/Opinion/2015/07/1...Union-Workers/

http://www.montrealgazette.com/busin...749/story.html

http://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/ottawa...rkers-1.638399

http://www.theglobeandmail.com/news/...rticle1205177/

http://www.torontosun.com/2015/02/15...workers-strike

http://www.theglobeandmail.com/news/...rticle4223709/

Put that in contrast with Trudeau's Liberals

http://www.nationalobserver.com/2016...rk-legislation

Notice how there was NOT a Canada Post strike or lock out under Trudeau. Weird what happens when the government doesn't get involved.

A bunch of cherry picked links to support what you say as well as a total LACK of SPECIFICS of how it affected YOU.Put up or shut up.Give the specifics or shut up.I did notice you did not contest my listing of the tenure of Mr.Harper as PM.He had 2 long minority governments and then a single majority and during that majority no evil/sinister "hidden agenda" was forced upon the Canadian populace.

Yes Harper did legislate Canada Post back to work and it needed to be done and I have no sympathy at all for ANY union public sector worker be they Federal/Provincial/Civic as they are for the most part over paid and under worked and most definately way over protected.

Well over 80,000 jobs have been cut in the private sector in Alberta in the last 18 months yet the public sector union workers dont feel the pinch.

Alberta NEEDS some serious trimming of the fat and by that I mean a 50% reduction of "managers" in the public sector and a wage roll back of 15% across the board for all public sector employees.....if they want to complain then ask them if they like actually having a job instead of coddling them like they have been ever since Klein left office and that idiot Stelmach took over.

FTH

[raab]

Originally Posted by From The Hip

A bunch of cherry picked links to support what you say as well as a total LACK of SPECIFICS of how it affected YOU.Put up or shut up.Give the specifics or shut up.I did notice you did not contest my listing of the tenure of Mr.Harper as PM.He had 2 long minority governments and then a single majority and during that majority no evil/sinister "hidden agenda" was forced upon the Canadian populace.

Yes Harper did legislate Canada Post back to work and it needed to be done and I have no sympathy at all for ANY union public sector worker be they Federal/Provincial/Civic as they are for the most part over paid and under worked and most definately way over protected.

Well over 80,000 jobs have been cut in the private sector in Alberta in the last 18 months yet the public sector union workers dont feel the pinch.

Alberta NEEDS some serious trimming of the fat and by that I mean a 50% reduction of "managers" in the public sector and a wage roll back of 15% across the board for all public sector employees.....if they want to complain then ask them if they like actually having a job instead of coddling them like they have been ever since Klein left office and that idiot Stelmach took over.

FTH

I think you should look at that list again and how many times Harper put in BTWL as a majority government and the timelines in which he did it vs as a minority.

Also worth looking at the anti union laws he passed while having a majority. He had a clear anti union mandate which is why I said anyone on here who works union should not support him.

As for public sector I worked public sector for a long time. I really think you should go get a job in the public sector if you think they have it so great. I dont see how cutting front line staff wages helps the province. They'll probably spend more in training then what they'd save due to people leaving for the private sector. As it is now a lot of the front line public workers make between 55-65k depending on seniority. For the job some of them do its not enough.

In saying that I think we should allow for a freer market and bring in private health care and more private education to help offset the monopoly those in these organizations have with regards to bargaining. What people from these Unions dont seem to comprehend with allowing more private enterprise, there should be competition for workers that will drive employee wages up. Very possible that more private schools actually works out better for teachers, then teaching in a public school.

[jstubbs]

Originally Posted by From The Hip

Alberta NEEDS some serious trimming of the fat and by that I mean a 50% reduction of "managers" in the public sector and a wage roll back of 15% across the board for all public sector employees.....if they want to complain then ask them if they like actually having a job instead of coddling them like they have been ever since Klein left office and that idiot Stelmach took over.

FTH

If only. I don't deny that some certainly earn their pay, but there is such a degree of abundant bureaucratic waste that it's astounding. The biggest issue/scam is all of the "consulting" that has to occur before any minor change is made, big or small. Whether it is having to call up a superior for consultation before doing anything out of the ordinary, or hiring an outside firm to do some wildly expensive "consulting" work (who wants to guess how much the City of Calgary is paying the company running the survey about the Olympics bid?). Ask anyone who has worked a public sector job, they will tell you all about it.

If there is one thing I learned doing an econ undergrad, it is that people respond to incentives. In the case of public sector employees, where is your incentive to do anything efficiently? What is your incentive to work harder? Promotions are often the result of nepotism more than anything. The same goes with budgets, where is any governmental branches' incentive to perform under budget? All it means is they'll likely have their budget reduced for next year, or the expectation that they should run under budget, so instead they squander funding like water without regard for the millions of people paying for it.

I bet in a world where governmental efficiency was even half of full potential, the budget would be maybe a sixth of what it is currently. Heck, probably even less than that.

[raab]

Originally Posted by jstubbs

If only. I don't deny that some certainly earn their pay, but there is such a degree of abundant bureaucratic waste that it's astounding. The biggest issue/scam is all of the "consulting" that has to occur before any minor change is made, big or small. Whether it is having to call up a superior for consultation before doing anything out of the ordinary, or hiring an outside firm to do some wildly expensive "consulting" work (who wants to guess how much the City of Calgary is paying the company running the survey about the Olympics bid?). Ask anyone who has worked a public sector job, they will tell you all about it.

If there is one thing I learned doing an econ undergrad, it is that people respond to incentives. In the case of public sector employees, where is your incentive to do anything efficiently? What is your incentive to work harder? Promotions are often the result of nepotism more than anything. The same goes with budgets, where is any governmental branches' incentive to perform under budget? All it means is they'll likely have their budget reduced for next year, or the expectation that they should run under budget, so instead they squander funding like water without regard for the millions of people paying for it.

I bet in a world where governmental efficiency was even half of full potential, the budget would be maybe a sixth of what it is currently. Heck, probably even less than that.

Well said, no doubt anything the government does is less then efficient. Doesnt change the fact that a lot of front line workers work hard. Their incentive is that they want to be there and take pride in the work as they know it makes a difference. If it was about money they'd be doing something else.

[From The Hip]

Originally Posted by jstubbs

If only. I don't deny that some certainly earn their pay, but there is such a degree of abundant bureaucratic waste that it's astounding. The biggest issue/scam is all of the "consulting" that has to occur before any minor change is made, big or small. Whether it is having to call up a superior for consultation before doing anything out of the ordinary, or hiring an outside firm to do some wildly expensive "consulting" work (who wants to guess how much the City of Calgary is paying the company running the survey about the Olympics bid?). Ask anyone who has worked a public sector job, they will tell you all about it.

If there is one thing I learned doing an econ undergrad, it is that people respond to incentives. In the case of public sector employees, where is your incentive to do anything efficiently? What is your incentive to work harder? Promotions are often the result of nepotism more than anything. The same goes with budgets, where is any governmental branches' incentive to perform under budget? All it means is they'll likely have their budget reduced for next year, or the expectation that they should run under budget, so instead they squander funding like water without regard for the millions of people paying for it.

I bet in a world where governmental efficiency was even half of full potential, the budget would be maybe a sixth of what it is currently. Heck, probably even less than that.

Best example of that I can think of is the "snow clearing" in Calgary.During Super Bowl weekend we got walloped with 8 inches of snow and not a single city vehicle was out doing what is was supposed to do.Come Monday it was all shifts going 24/7 with lots of overtime....cue it up a week later when Calgary got a light dusting of snow on a Monday and I saw 6 sanders out and of course just like the week before NONE of them had the blades down to scrape the road they were driving over.Drive for 8 hours and spread salt/sand....next shift same thing.

When they should be out they are not....and when they should not be out they are.....all the while doing a poor job of it.

FTH

[From The Hip]

Originally Posted by raab

I think you should look at that list again and how many times Harper put in BTWL as a majority government and the timelines in which he did it vs as a minority.

Also worth looking at the anti union laws he passed while having a majority. He had a clear anti union mandate which is why I said anyone on here who works union should not support him.

As for public sector I worked public sector for a long time. I really think you should go get a job in the public sector if you think they have it so great. I dont see how cutting front line staff wages helps the province. They'll probably spend more in training then what they'd save due to people leaving for the private sector. As it is now a lot of the front line public workers make between 55-65k depending on seniority. For the job some of them do its not enough.

In saying that I think we should allow for a freer market and bring in private health care and more private education to help offset the monopoly those in these organizations have with regards to bargaining. What people from these Unions dont seem to comprehend with allowing more private enterprise, there should be competition for workers that will drive employee wages up. Very possible that more private schools actually works out better for teachers, then teaching in a public school.

Still no SPECIFICS of how it AFFECTED you......provide some tangible details please.


And as for PUBLIC sector DRONES....not like I am talking about doctors/nurses/fire/LE/EMS.....I am talking about the lazy no account sloths that screw the dog such as the laundry workers at hospitals that cant be fired....for them getting even 40K a year and with a defined benefit pension makes them VASTLY over paid and yes I see it on a daily basis and the most common refrain is "it's not my job".Those are the people that should have a 15% wage roll back legislated upon them and if any want to complain then bring out the job cutting axe and trim the fat.

Best example I know of this is when the Brooklyn bridge had to be resurfaced and refurbished a few years ago.The municipal government said it had to be done and the target time was 3 months.They said straight out no overtime.It runs three 8 hour shifts a day and it goes shift 1/shift 2/shift 3 and the shifts rotate every 2 weeks.A percentage of people complained and they were told "do your job or you dont have a job" and then that percentage of people shut up and were happy to keep the job they had.

Dont even get me started on Teachers.....their defined benefit pension plan got bailed out by the RED Queen for 2 BILLION from the tax payer purse.....if thier pension plan was so well managed and so sustainable then WHY did it get bailed out for 2 BILLION?.....because it was not sustainable....and the same thing goes for ALL public sector defined benefit pension plans.....go ask the city of Detroit what it is like to have under funded pension plans combined with a shrinking tax base and they will tell you BANKRUPT.

To end this rant RAAB I SPECIFICALLY ask you to reply and in detail how Mr.Harper put the screws to you......with his evil agenda.

FTH

[raab]

Originally Posted by From The Hip

Still no SPECIFICS of how it AFFECTED you......provide some tangible details please.


And as for PUBLIC sector DRONES....not like I am talking about doctors/nurses/fire/LE/EMS.....I am talking about the lazy no account sloths that screw the dog such as the laundry workers at hospitals that cant be fired....for them getting even 40K a year and with a defined benefit pension makes them VASTLY over paid and yes I see it on a daily basis and the most common refrain is "it's not my job".Those are the people that should have a 15% wage roll back legislated upon them and if any want to complain then bring out the job cutting axe and trim the fat.

Best example I know of this is when the Brooklyn bridge had to be resurfaced and refurbished a few years ago.The municipal government said it had to be done and the target time was 3 months.They said straight out no overtime.It runs three 8 hour shifts a day and it goes shift 1/shift 2/shift 3 and the shifts rotate every 2 weeks.A percentage of people complained and they were told "do your job or you dont have a job" and then that percentage of people shut up and were happy to keep the job they had.

Dont even get me started on Teachers.....their defined benefit pension plan got bailed out by the RED Queen for 2 BILLION from the tax payer purse.....if thier pension plan was so well managed and so sustainable then WHY did it get bailed out for 2 BILLION?.....because it was not sustainable....and the same thing goes for ALL public sector defined benefit pension plans.....go ask the city of Detroit what it is like to have under funded pension plans combined with a shrinking tax base and they will tell you BANKRUPT.

To end this rant RAAB I SPECIFICALLY ask you to reply and in detail how Mr.Harper put the screws to you......with his evil agenda.

FTH

I agree with regards to laundry services. Unions should protect highly specialized trades, and technicians. They shouldn't be protecting non skilled and non trained labor. If your going to put a lot of money into an education and spend a lot of time gaining experience you should have some job security. Doing the laundry is something anyone off the street can do and should be contracted out IMO.

In saying that we need to trim a significant amount. More then even cutting management and those lower level services would cost. IMO we should cut all subsidies for public schools and give the funding to students. Each student will be awarded a certain amount per student and that amount can be used for public school, private school, or homeschooling through a qualified school board. All post secondary education subsidies should be stopped, and we should give grants to those who apply for a certain amount. We should work with industry and help them train successful applicants for jobs and hopefully get them to put a bit towards the training. Similar to what they do in Switzerland.

We also absolutely need to bring private investment into healthcare. We can't continue to run a 21B dollar healthcare system when the Province as a whole collects 21B in taxes alone right now.

As for how Harper effected me I won't be saying anything on an online forum about it. All I'll say is that he directly effected the rights and freedoms of thousands of Canadians unjustly. It's one thing to order back to work legislation after a week or two of a strike/lockout, its another to be working on it less then 1 business day into a strike or lock out.

[From The Hip]

Originally Posted by raab

I agree with regards to laundry services. Unions should protect highly specialized trades, and technicians. They shouldn't be protecting non skilled and non trained labor. If your going to put a lot of money into an education and spend a lot of time gaining experience you should have some job security. Doing the laundry is something anyone off the street can do and should be contracted out IMO.

In saying that we need to trim a significant amount. More then even cutting management and those lower level services would cost. IMO we should cut all subsidies for public schools and give the funding to students. Each student will be awarded a certain amount per student and that amount can be used for public school, private school, or homeschooling through a qualified school board. All post secondary education subsidies should be stopped, and we should give grants to those who apply for a certain amount. We should work with industry and help them train successful applicants for jobs and hopefully get them to put a bit towards the training. Similar to what they do in Switzerland.

We also absolutely need to bring private investment into healthcare. We can't continue to run a 21B dollar healthcare system when the Province as a whole collects 21B in taxes alone right now.

As for how Harper effected me I won't be saying anything on an online forum about it. All I'll say is that he directly effected the rights and freedoms of thousands of Canadians unjustly. It's one thing to order back to work legislation after a week or two of a strike/lockout, its another to be working on it less then 1 business day into a strike or lock out.

Lots of blah blah blah and then a glimmer of the truth comes out.You are/were a member of the Postal Workers Union and you did not like the back to work legislation.No doubt you also did not like the implementation of the central post boxes or the axeing to the roll over of banked sick days and all the while complaining about "It's my job" whilst not paying any attention to that Canada Post was losing a BILLION a year but in the Union members eyes it is OK as they are paid via the public purse.

FTH

[raab]

Originally Posted by From The Hip

Lots of blah blah blah and then a glimmer of the truth comes out.You are/were a member of the Postal Workers Union and you did not like the back to work legislation.No doubt you also did not like the implementation of the central post boxes or the axeing to the roll over of banked sick days and all the while complaining about "It's my job" whilst not paying any attention to that Canada Post was losing a BILLION a year but in the Union members eyes it is OK as they are paid via the public purse.

FTH

Sure, not worried about how were running a 10B dollar deficit and only taking in 21B in tax. Also offer no suggestions on how to fix the problem.

But worried about where I work, and why I dont support a PM who was defeated. And no I dont work for Canada Post.

[HyperMOA]

Originally Posted by raab

I think you need to read the articles. First I didn't work for Harper, and actually do work in the private sector. Second you're completely wrong on Harper infringing on my rights and what his rights are. If he tried that again today it wouldn't stand up in court.

Pertinent quote "On Thursday, April 28, 2016, the Ontario Superior Court ruled that the Harper government violated the Canadian Union of Postal Workers (CUPW) members’ freedom of association and expression by legislating them back to work in June 2011."

http://www.nupge.ca/content/12951/fe...constitutional

Harper hated hard working Canadians, and loved giving breaks to the elites. Easy to see when you look at the TFW's and harrassment of union employees under his watch. I can''t believe people actually wonder how he lost the election. It was very evident when you looked at what was going on. All I can say is good riddance.

So Mr. Harper not being afraid of your attempts at extortion is an infringement on your rights? So his actions wouldn't hold up in court today; but would they in 2011? Was it within his power? It appears so. Too bad your failing employer wasn't allowed to bleed more money and cause the very debts you opened this thread for. The hypocrisy is so deep its time to roll up the pant legs; its too late to save the boots.

The great Mr. Harper lowered the taxes and empowered the hard working people of this country to save money. Not the elites. Your precious Justin and Rachel are the ones enslaving Canadians insuring that only the Laurentian elites succeed. Open your eyes. I'm very sorry that Mr. Harper didn't add 27billion dollars more of debt to satisfy your demands as his employee. Sometimes, the boss makes the business decisions, and not low priced help.

[Newview01]

Originally Posted by HyperMOA

So Mr. Harper not being afraid of your attempts at extortion is an infringement on your rights? So his actions wouldn't hold up in court today; but would they in 2011? Was it within his power? It appears so. Too bad your failing employer wasn't allowed to bleed more money and cause the very debts you opened this thread for. The hypocrisy is so deep its time to roll up the pant legs; its too late to save the boots.

The great Mr. Harper lowered the taxes and empowered the hard working people of this country to save money. Not the elites. Your precious Justin and Rachel are the ones enslaving Canadians insuring that only the Laurentian elites succeed. Open your eyes. I'm very sorry that Mr. Harper didn't add 27billion dollars more of debt to satisfy your demands as his employee. Sometimes, the boss makes the business decisions, and not low priced help.

This was good to read.

Harper made decisions with Canada's best interests at heart. The leftists that have been elected, not so much.

[raab]

Originally Posted by Newview01

This was good to read.

Harper made decisions with Canada's best interests at heart. The leftists that have been elected, not so much.

So Air Canada, CN, and CP are crown corporations? They dont compete in a free market? Also they have such a monopoly on the Canadian market that one of them shutting down for even a day would dramatically effect the economy and suddenly cause it to collapse? Give me a break.

A week or two sure, 1 day and its a bit harder to believe.

[From The Hip]

Originally Posted by raab

So Air Canada, CN, and CP are crown corporations? They dont compete in a free market? Also they have such a monopoly on the Canadian market that one of them shutting down for even a day would dramatically effect the economy and suddenly cause it to collapse? Give me a break.

A week or two sure, 1 day and its a bit harder to believe.

The Harper government made it law for CN/CP to move grain as a quota of shipments as so much grain was sitting in silos and they also attached hefty fines for non compliance.How is that for a Conservative government raking a private sector company over the coals to get results.

As for Harper legislating Canada Post workers back to work at a money losing Crown Corporation that is held hostage by the union....well cry me a river as I cant shed a single tear.

I deal with Canada Post every day and I talk and listen.The most disgusting thing I heard was some gal talking about her upcoming final year.She was going to work for 6 months and then take her vacation time and then use her "banked" sick days accrued over 25 years to take the rest of the year off as "stress leave" and then retire with CPP/OAS/CP Pension.Only reason I did not snap is it could possibly come back at me via a vengefull attitude.

I have no sympathy for ANY public sector union members who draw half of thier pension from the public purse whilst at the same time face no accountability for their lack lustre work performance as the cant be fired for even gross incompetance.

FTH

[qballs]

Originally Posted by From The Hip

The Harper government made it law for CN/CP to move grain as a quota of shipments as so much grain was sitting in silos and they also attached hefty fines for non compliance.How is that for a Conservative government raking a private sector company over the coals to get results.

As for Harper legislating Canada Post workers back to work at a money losing Crown Corporation that is held hostage by the union....well cry me a river as I cant shed a single tear.

I deal with Canada Post every day and I talk and listen.The most disgusting thing I heard was some gal talking about her upcoming final year.She was going to work for 6 months and then take her vacation time and then use her "banked" sick days accrued over 25 years to take the rest of the year off as "stress leave" and then retire with CPP/OAS/CP Pension.Only reason I did not snap is it could possibly come back at me via a vengefull attitude.

I have no sympathy for ANY public sector union members who draw half of thier pension from the public purse whilst at the same time face no accountability for their lack lustre work performance as the cant be fired for even gross incompetance.

FTH

Well said