Waterfolwing on Private Property- Tips on securring access to Avoid Misunderstandings

[Pikebreath]

The best waterfowling for our most popular species of ducks and geese is often on private farmland ,,, and for good reason,,, this is where the food is and access is usually controlled. However often times confusion rears up when two or more groups of hunters show up on the same day on same field,,, or someone takes what you thought was your shoot and wrecks your plans.

Hunters do need to remember, though that hunting on privately owned / leased / occupied lands is a privilege not a right. The farmer did not that grow that crop of peas for your recreational enjoyment.

Here are some things to consider when asking to hunt on private land to avoid misunderstandings and miscommunications.

1) The renter is a legal occupant. His lease does not end when the crop is off the field. He has every legal right to control access if he desires to do so. He may wish to put restrictions on entry into the field for agronomic reasons like diseases and pathogen control (i.e. club root),,,, fall field work (doesn't want to work around your decoy spread) ,,,, fire hazard concerns.,,, doesn't want the extra ruts or compaction etc... and he actually may like hunting himself.

2) Since the renter is a legal occupant he can allow and disallow access. Often most renters will defer that to their landowner,,, but not always. It is wise when asking for permission from a landowner to ask if there is a renter that needs to be contacted. The renter may also have given permission to someone else.

3) There are many elderly and absentee landowners,,, often times the first primary and local contact will be the renter. But then again in this case it is still prudent to ask if the landowner needs to be contacted.

4) Do not play the landowner against the renter and vise versa,,, it may get you into a field once in a while,,, but that is a battle you will not win in the long run. You could very well end up with lot more closed doors than you want in the future as the farming renter usually controls far more land than any individual landowner.

5) Do not expect or ask for exclusive season long access on a field. You are asking and expecting a lot from the farmer / landowner if you feel you should be the only one to hunt it. It is not fair to the farmer or the other hunters to keep other hunters out that are able to hunt when the field is loaded with birds and ready to hunt now, rather than next week when you can hunt.

6) You should always ask a specific day or two when you want to hunt and ask are there any other hunters who also have permission. Even in the case of blanket permission that means to call ahead a day or of two of when you want to hunt to make sure no one else might be hunting that same day as well. This is a courtesy to the other hunters.

7) As a courtesy to other hunters, do not tie up more shoots than you can possibly hunt in the next 2-3 days ahead. Tying up multiple fields whether they are building or huntable right now so you have choices 4- 6 days down the road is a practice that shuts out other hunters. Many of these shoots never get taken cause there are just too many things that can cause the birds to leave the field ,,, i.e. weather changes, feed runs out, birds move on or are scared off by predators, farmer doing field work, oil field activity, other ****ed off hunters,,, and so on!!!

Given the potential quality of prairie farmland waterfowling, if you consider these things when putting in the time and road mileage to find huntable groups of waterfowl, you will be eventually be rewarded with many "once in a life time hunts" to last numerous lifetimes!!!

[wildside2014]

Good post. I don't know how many times ive argued with boneheads on here that the occupier of the land (renter) really has the final say when it comes down to it, over the actual owner. Ive seen so many guys on here state they automatically go over the renters head and call the owner directly.....its sad to see THAT many guys with absolutely no idea as to how to approach it properly.

[MFury]

Great post. Helpful for those of us new to the area. Thank you

[Ranch11]

I ran into this issue last year. I asked for permission from the landowner. Got it and went to hunt the next day. The next morning, we're set up and waiting for the birds, when a firestorm of pickups roll into the field. The renter shows up with his boys. And he's ****ed! So, I talk to him and explain where and who I talked to about permission. He's still ****ed. He didn't want to hunt, he just didn't want anybody on the field till after the stubble was worked over. Turns out, he was really concerned about thieves more than me hunting as he just had a bunch of stuff stolen from his farm. I was parked in a grove of poplars. A really good hiding spot. We both talked to the landowner after as well. Smoothed things out. Man, I thought I was gonna get my teeth knocked out. And the landowner thought they had the right to give permission. Scary morning.

[IL Bar]

Originally Posted by wildside2014

Good post. I don't know how many times ive argued with boneheads on here that the occupier of the land (renter) really has the final say when it comes down to it, over the actual owner. Ive seen so many guys on here state they automatically go over the renters head and call the owner directly.....its sad to see THAT many guys with absolutely no idea as to how to approach it properly.

It's not just boneheads on here. There are "professional" guides in Alberta here that do not understand this. One of them has a tv show.

Thank you to pikebreath for posting this. As a farmer/landowner it's amazing the amount of people that don't get this. Most don't understand that it's a privilege to get to hunt on private land not a right. Some of us get multiple phone calls a day looking for permission and get tired of the disrespect shown by many in the hunting community so we are shutting down access. If you are given permission and the landowner/farmer asks for a few rules to be followed please follow them.

[elkhunter11]

Originally Posted by IL Bar

It's not just boneheads on here. There are "professional" guides in Alberta here that do not understand this. One of them has a tv show.

Thank you to pikebreath for posting this. As a farmer/landowner it's amazing the amount of people that don't get this. Most don't understand that it's a privilege to get to hunt on private land not a right. Some of us get multiple phone calls a day looking for permission and get tired of the disrespect shown by many in the hunting community so we are shutting down access. If you are given permission and the landowner/farmer asks for a few rules to be followed please follow them.

Many people just don't get the fact that a landowner is not obligated in any way to allow hunting on his property. He can allow hunting access to who he pleases, and he can deny hunting access to whomever he pleases, for whatever reason that he chooses. If he doesn't like your attitude, or simply doesn't like the looks of you, the landowner can deny access. I have been asked if I was an outfitter or guide, and I have been asked where I live, and of course I could have refused to answer the questions, but the landowner can also refuse access based on me refusing to answer his questions. I have been asked to show the landowner my hunting license to prove that I have one, and once again, I don't have to comply, but once again, the landowner can simply deny access if I don't comply. If the landowner grants access but with stipulations, then either accept the stipulations, or hunt elsewhere. I found that being polite and respectful has resulted in me being granted access to a lot of property, and if I am refused, I thank the landowner for his time and move on, there is nothing o be gained by arguing with a landowner.

[fish_e_o]

Hahahahhaha why would a renter think they can tell the land owner what to do?

If my renter gave someone hunting permission on my land I would have a new renter so fast it would make their head spin.

[IL Bar]

Originally Posted by fish_e_o

Hahahahhaha why would a renter think they can tell the land owner what to do?

If my renter gave someone hunting permission on my land I would have a new renter so fast it would make their head spin.

I would hope as a landowner that you respect the rights of your tenant and do not allow access unless tenant agrees to it especially if your tenant still has crop out. By law as occupier he can run out anyone you have given permission to if he is renting the property. I doubt most tenants give out hunting permission without sending interested party to talk to landowner.

As a hunter when asking permission make sure that both landlord and tenant agree with it.

[mac1983]

Originally Posted by fish_e_o

hahahahhaha why would a renter think they can tell the land owner what to do?

If my renter gave someone hunting permission on my land i would have a new renter so fast it would make their head spin.

x100...

[threeforthree]

If the owner gives me permission , to go on his land I go.. If he does not let me know there is a renter he must feel the same way I do. .We Ran into this in Sask, never heard of it ten years ago..I ask one guy and its the owner.

[catnthehat]

There is a landowner around where we hunt that stipulates to his leasees that no hunting is allowed - period, no one , not friends the leeasee, no one .

Respecting a landowners requests is paramount as well .
Just because it is legal if he does not want you to shoot a certain critter ( deer during a waterfowl hunt or coyotes for example ) don't do it!

My buddy and I lost some prime waterfowl fields last year because the two seed farmers had some locals bring pre- brushed blinds into a field even after they were asked not to , resulting possible cross contamination .
That is a really big letdown for us .
We can still hunt deer , no one is allowed waterfowl however.
Cat

[wildside2014]

Originally Posted by fish_e_o

Hahahahhaha why would a renter think they can tell the land owner what to do?

If my renter gave someone hunting permission on my land I would have a new renter so fast it would make their head spin.

You dont own any land do you? Either that, or youve never rented, or rented out land

[mac1983]

Originally Posted by wildside2014

You dont own any land do you? Either that, or youve never rented, or rented out land

Just curious, does the renter of the land determine who has access to said land or does the deeded land owner. I am a landowner and never thought the renters rights would trump mine. I can see if you sign a contract with the renter giving him those rights or if he still has a standing crop in the field, but once that crop is gone what then. Are there laws in alberta that give renters those rights. I have never rented out my land so just curious about the legalities of it all. Just looking to clear this issue up so there is no confusion out there.

edit: If there are laws giving renters these rights could you post a link so i could educate myself? Am looking for said laws but not having any luck.

[Pudelpointer]

Great post, however I knew it was going to turn into a renter/landowner rights p***ing match.

I guess the best advice is to ask BOTH parties in those situations. Asking a landowner if there is a renter, and if that renter has the right to control access, is probably good SOP.

[catnthehat]

I asked the guy combining by my lake lot last year if I could hunt and he told me he only leases the field and to ask the land owner .
For me all parties have to be involved and agreed or I don't go near it and tell both that
Cat

[Opa]

I am a landowner who leases his farm(12 quarters). My lawyer indicated to me that the lessee has the right to determine who he allows on the land, unless it is written into the lease agreement. I did reserve the right to hunt the land, AFTER notifying the lessee that I would be there, and for what period of time. Anyone else who may have his permission can be requested by myself or my companions to vacate the property until such time as we are gone. It would be like a property owner walking into his tenant's place, without the tenant's prior knowledge, and helping himself to the contents.

I have no problems with others availing themselves of the opportunity to wail on the migratories, uplands, or whitetails when I am not there. In fact, I will give them the lessee's name and phone number.(A 306 area code!!)

[mac1983]

Originally Posted by Opa

I am a landowner who leases his farm(12 quarters). My lawyer indicated to me that the lessee has the right to determine who he allows on the land, unless it is written into the lease agreement. I did reserve the right to hunt the land, AFTER notifying the lessee that I would be there, and for what period of time. Anyone else who may have his permission can be requested by myself or my companions to vacate the property until such time as we are gone. It would be like a property owner walking into his tenant's place, without the tenant's prior knowledge, and helping himself to the contents.

I have no problems with others availing themselves of the opportunity to wail on the migratories, uplands, or whitetails when I am not there. In fact, I will give them the lessee's name and phone number.(A 306 area code!!)

I apologize if i am derailing, but just want to get it clear. So i have a quarter section with 100 acres of cropland and 60 acres of bush, and i am charging $40.00 an acre do i have to notify him if i want to shoot the 5x5 elk in the bush? Even though he is not paying me for the 60 acres of bushland?
Or the waterfowl on the big slough in said bush. Just wanting to get it right.
Edit: still looking for said laws...

[Tactical Lever]

Originally Posted by Opa

I am a landowner who leases his farm(12 quarters). My lawyer indicated to me that the lessee has the right to determine who he allows on the land, unless it is written into the lease agreement. I did reserve the right to hunt the land, AFTER notifying the lessee that I would be there, and for what period of time. Anyone else who may have his permission can be requested by myself or my companions to vacate the property until such time as we are gone. It would be like a property owner walking into his tenant's place, without the tenant's prior knowledge, and helping himself to the contents.

I have no problems with others availing themselves of the opportunity to wail on the migratories, uplands, or whitetails when I am not there. In fact, I will give them the lessee's name and phone number.(A 306 area code!!)

There it is, the only way to decide is to work it out before both parties sign off on it. No one can be ticked over losing "rights" that were agreed on when the terms were signed.

Good stuff to keep in mind. If I was looking, I don't think it would've even crossed my mind to look for another number that wasn't posted, or calling someone else that wasn't residing in the house attached to the land.

[Opa]

Originally Posted by mac1983

I apologize if i am derailing, but just want to get it clear. So i have a quarter section with 100 acres of cropland and 60 acres of bush, and i am charging $40.00 an acre do i have to notify him if i want to shoot the 5x5 elk in the bush? Even though he is not paying me for the 60 acres of bushland?
Or the waterfowl on the big slough in said bush. Just wanting to get it right.
Edit: still looking for said laws...

Would you walk into a tenants apartment? Probably not without notifying them beforehand. That is why all access arrangements should necessarily be made before the lease is signed. By doing so, ALL confusion AND any conflict as to access is avoided. The tenant has control over all access rights, unless it is otherwise stipulated. Best off to have access defined in the lease agreement.

[mac1983]

Originally Posted by Opa

Would you walk into a tenants apartment? Probably not without notifying them beforehand. That is why all access arrangements should necessarily be made before the lease is signed. By doing so, ALL confusion AND any conflict as to access is avoided. The tenant has control over all access rights, unless it is otherwise stipulated.

Yes it's best to have a very clear agreement on all access details when signing the lease, for me, the renter and the ones wanting access. So like Cat says when looking for permission you get that same info from both people. But i am still hunting the bush that he isn't paying for.
PS: still looking for the applicable laws for agriculture land

[Pikebreath]

Originally Posted by mac1983

Just curious, does the renter of the land determine who has access to said land or does the deeded land owner. I am a landowner and never thought the renters rights would trump mine. I can see if you sign a contract with the renter giving him those rights or if he still has a standing crop in the field, but once that crop is gone what then. Are there laws in alberta that give renters those rights. I have never rented out my land so just curious about the legalities of it all. Just looking to clear this issue up so there is no confusion out there.

edit: If there are laws giving renters these rights could you post a link so i could educate myself? Am looking for said laws but not having any luck.

The renter's rights do not trump your rights.

Here is the link for the Petty Trespass http://www.qp.alberta.ca/documents/Acts/P11.pdf

The following is a direct quote from the act:


Prohibition
2(1) Every person who
(a) without the permission of the owner or occupier of land
enters on land when entry is prohibited under section 2.1,
or
(b) does not leave land immediately after he or she is directed
to do so by the owner or occupier of the land or a person
authorized by the owner or occupier
is guilty of an offence.

The key words are "owner or occupier" meaning both have the ability to allow or prohibit access.

A lot of prime waterfowl hunting takes place over rented cropland where the tenant certainly has a "vested interest", something that joe hunter does not have. The original post was to make hunters aware that the renter does have the ability to grant and deny permission (unless the tenant agrees to abdicate his access control to the landlord,,, and in many case it's also the other way around,, the owner passes all access requests on to the tenant.)

At any rate that is why two hunting parties can show up at the field at once, both with permission , one from the owner, the other from the renter,,,, or why you may encounter an angry owner or a irate renter asking you to vacate the property.

The whole point is,,,, it is wise to simply ask whoever your first contact may be when seeking access if the renter or owner need to be contacted as well.

That simple little act will clear up a lot of misunderstanding in the field

[fish_e_o]

Originally Posted by Opa

I am a landowner who leases his farm(12 quarters). My lawyer indicated to me that the lessee has the right to determine who he allows on the land, unless it is written into the lease agreement. I did reserve the right to hunt the land, AFTER notifying the lessee that I would be there, and for what period of time. Anyone else who may have his permission can be requested by myself or my companions to vacate the property until such time as we are gone. It would be like a property owner walking into his tenant's place, without the tenant's prior knowledge, and helping himself to the contents.

I have no problems with others availing themselves of the opportunity to wail on the migratories, uplands, or whitetails when I am not there. In fact, I will give them the lessee's name and phone number.(A 306 area code!!)

If you want full access to land buy it yourself. a paltry few bucks an acre is not equal to the mortgage on a property.

[CamoDerrick]

Just to muddy up the waters a bit more:

What if a bee keeper rents a small corner of a field beside the farm crop? His bees travel over the entire section of land.

Does the bee keeper own the right to allow/reject permission to access field because they lease the land as well? Does one permission trump the other party's permission?




I would think it would come down to what areas of the land are rented if not otherwise written in the lease agreement. Just another train of thought.

[Pikebreath]

Originally Posted by CamoDerrick

Just to muddy up the waters a bit more:

What if a bee keeper rents a small corner of a field beside the farm crop? His bees travel over the entire section of land.

Does the bee keeper own the right to allow/reject permission to access field because they lease the land as well? Does one permission trump the other party's permission?




I would think it would come down to what areas of the land are rented if not otherwise written in the lease agreement. Just another train of thought.

Beekeepers generally do not pay rent,,, they only provide the landowner with pail or two of honey every year.

Farmland is rented, a payment of significant monetary value to the owner gives the renter a vested interest in the surface rights on the rented / leased land. That is why the renter is considered a legal occupier which confers legal rights.

Many cropland rentals are done on cultivated or seeded acres only which means the tenant would have no access control for hunting ducks on the slough,,, however if you wish to hunt on the cropland or enter the cropland to access the slough or retrieve your game, the renter could have his say.

It is not a case of one party's ability to trump the other,,, rather it is case of both party's (owner or tenant) abilty to protect their interest in the property. If one or the other says, "You gotta go, you gotta go!"

Now in the real world of farmland rentals, it serves little purpose for either the owner or the tenant to disrespect each other's wishes when it comes granting / disallowing third party access. This is a good way to ensure the current tenant / landowner arrangement will not survive.

A landlord does not wish to antagonize a good tenant and the tenant certainly doesn't want the owner looking for a new renter either. Most owners / tenants have an understanding as to who has the final say for hunting access on farmland.

The whole point of this thread is not to debate who has more rights, but rather show respect to both by considering both when asking for permission and in the process ensuring a better waterfowling experience for the hunters .

[Opa]

Originally Posted by fish_e_o

If you want full access to land buy it yourself. a paltry few bucks an acre is not equal to the mortgage on a property.

Perhaps I wrote too fast for you. I own the land!!!!! Reread my first post.

[IL Bar]

Originally Posted by Pikebreath

Beekeepers generally do not pay rent,,, they only provide the landowner with pail or two of honey every year.

Farmland is rented, a payment of significant monetary value to the owner gives the renter a vested interest in the surface rights on the rented / leased land. That is why the renter is considered a legal occupier which confers legal rights.

Many cropland rentals are done on cultivated or seeded acres only which means the tenant would have no access control for hunting ducks on the slough,,, however if you wish to hunt on the cropland or enter the cropland to access the slough or retrieve your game, the renter could have his say.

It is not a case of one party's ability to trump the other,,, rather it is case of both party's (owner or tenant) abilty to protect their interest in the property. If one or the other says, "You gotta go, you gotta go!"

Now in the real world of farmland rentals, it serves little purpose for either the owner or the tenant to disrespect each other's wishes when it comes granting / disallowing third party access. This is a good way to ensure the current tenant / landowner arrangement will not survive.

A landlord does not wish to antagonize a good tenant and the tenant certainly doesn't want the owner looking for a new renter either. Most owners / tenants have an understanding as to who has the final say for hunting access on farmland.

The whole point of this thread is not to debate who has more rights, but rather show respect to both by considering both when asking for permission and in the process ensuring a better waterfowling experience for the hunters .

Very well put. As a farmer/landowner/renter I'm just looking for guys to have permission BEFORE you go driving in my crop. When renting land I'm only concerned with hunting access when I still have crop out. I've had multiple run ins with hunters and a local super guide and my concern is the crop you have been driving over. I don't come to your job and wreck things so why should you do that to me. My attitude to hunting is quite soured with some run ins I've had lately so now my once fairly free hunting access is now very limited. And I farm some very prime hunting land.

[Bergerboy]

If the renter had carte blanche rights to the land, why don't outfitters find a good field close to a roost and make a deal to get peas planted on it. They should be able to recoup the investment after 1 guided shoot. I have no dog in this hunt I am purely interested.

[Pikebreath]

Originally Posted by Bergerboy

If the renter had carte blanche rights to the land, why don't outfitters find a good field close to a roost and make a deal to get peas planted on it. They should be able to recoup the investment after 1 guided shoot. I have no dog in this hunt I am purely interested.

Stirring the pot, I presume?!!!

[IL Bar]

Originally Posted by Bergerboy

If the renter had carte blanche rights to the land, why don't outfitters find a good field close to a roost and make a deal to get peas planted on it. They should be able to recoup the investment after 1 guided shoot. I have no dog in this hunt I am purely interested.

I don't know where anyone has said the renter has carte blanche rights to the land. That being said the landlord does not have full power to their land if they have rented it out either as in having crop still out on it. Its just like renting out a house you can't just give anyone the keys to go into a house you've rented out at anytime without permission from the current renter.

As far as outfitters making deals to get crops planted that's another can of worms. Sounds like paid hunting to me which is supposed to be a no no. Some of these outfitters should try farming since it's so easy.

[Bergerboy]

Originally Posted by IL Bar

I don't know where anyone has said the renter has carte blanche rights to the land. That being said the landlord does not have full power to their land if they have rented it out either as in having crop still out on it. Its just like renting out a house you can't just give anyone the keys to go into a house you've rented out at anytime without permission from the current renter.

As far as outfitters making deals to get crops planted that's another can of worms. Sounds like paid hunting to me which is supposed to be a no no. Some of these outfitters should try farming since it's so easy.

That does make sense.