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  #31  
Old 03-07-2017, 04:57 PM
pokey2 pokey2 is offline
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Originally Posted by leo View Post
This would not raise any associated building costs. What it would do is eliminate a bunch of fly by night framers and so called builders. Right now anyone can build a house, no journeyman status or apprenticeship is required. I quit contracting many years ago for this very reason. I was competing with guys that had a compressor 2 spikers and a skil saw.
Just wow. You say it won't raise building costs, then you immediately admit that you want the government to eliminate the competition that undercut your prices. It sounds like you're admitting what we all know - that prices will be increased by this move. But you don't care because you stand to gain from it personally.

The government is here to enforce yet another monopoly to "protect" consumers... by forcing them to pay more money. The government will get their cut and are probably getting some kickbacks from the major builders for this as well. Sad.
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  #32  
Old 03-07-2017, 05:19 PM
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In this guessing game you lose. I have nothing to gain what so ever. I haven't worked residential construction in years and have no intention of going back to it because of Jack wad contractors that shouldn't be permitted to build a dog house. You got a better idea let's hear it?
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  #33  
Old 03-07-2017, 05:44 PM
pokey2 pokey2 is offline
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I'm all for a free and open market. If customers want to pay extra for a high end builder they will do so, they don't need the government to force them to. If they want a cheaper builder that leo doesn't personally approve of, they should have that option too!

I can also see the other side - the government wants an efficient society where the majority of human beings are like ants with very limited freedom and responsibility. But I just can't bat for that side when I'm an individual in the middle strata of society. It's up to the elites to create a new social hierarchy if that's what they want to do (and perhaps that's what they're slowly working towards, but it would be nice if they'd hurry up).
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  #34  
Old 03-07-2017, 06:01 PM
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I'm all for a free and open market. If customers want to pay extra for a high end builder they will do so, they don't need the government to force them to. If they want a cheaper builder that leo doesn't personally approve of, they should have that option too!
I agree, as long as there is full disclosure at point of sale that the builder was not accredited. Have at it. Let the homeowner and future homeowner assume the risk then.

I can also see the other side - the government wants an efficient society where the majority of human beings are like ants with very limited freedom and responsibility. But I just can't bat for that side when I'm an individual in the middle strata of society. It's up to the elites to create a new social hierarchy if that's what they want to do (and perhaps that's what they're slowly working towards, but it would be nice if they'd hurry up).
In my opinion industry should police itself. That will never happen unless you have something to lose. Like a red seal. There are still shady carpenters out there so it's not perfect. Put it this way. I cant legally go and wire your house, or hook up your gas line, yet you think its okay for someone with no technical training to build that same house? You still haven't proposed your solution?

I also agree with a property owner building their own home. I also agree that I should be able to hire whom ever I want to build me a home. Saying that, the home owner needs to understand that they assume all future liability, because a non accredited builder has nothing to lose. Maybe full disclosure at point of sale would solve some of these issues.
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  #35  
Old 03-07-2017, 07:20 PM
dmcbride dmcbride is offline
 
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Originally Posted by leo View Post
In my opinion industry should police itself. That will never happen unless you have something to lose. Like a red seal. There are still shady carpenters out there so it's not perfect. Put it this way. I cant legally go and wire your house, or hook up your gas line, yet you think its okay for someone with no technical training to build that same house? You still haven't proposed your solution?

I also agree with a property owner building their own home. I also agree that I should be able to hire whom ever I want to build me a home. Saying that, the home owner needs to understand that they assume all future liability, because a non accredited builder has nothing to lose. Maybe full disclosure at point of sale would solve some of these issues.
I suppose this answered my question. It will be just like the electrical and plumbing, can be done by myself but need someone to do the final hookups or sign off on the work???
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  #36  
Old 03-07-2017, 07:25 PM
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I suppose this answered my question. It will be just like the electrical and plumbing, can be done by myself but need someone to do the final hookups or sign off on the work???
If you are referring to the new proposed legislation, I can't answer that. As of right now you can pull your own permit and build to your hearts content. You can even pull your own homeowner permit to wire your house. It needs to be inspected before you can energize it. The new laws if passed will change all that. Even myself as a construction professional would not be permitted to build my own home without meeting the new criteria. I am against the proposed legislation for that reason. It's my property and I should be able to build it myself if I want to.
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  #37  
Old 03-07-2017, 07:40 PM
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Licensing does little to address dishonest, incompetent or reckless people.

If it did, we wouldn't have the worst drivers in North America.
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  #38  
Old 03-07-2017, 08:06 PM
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Originally Posted by KegRiver View Post
Licensing does little to address dishonest, incompetent or reckless people.

If it did, we wouldn't have the worst drivers in North America.
I agree. Licencing a builder means nothing. There are builders out there that hire the cheapest labor, and if and when they get caught with deficent work and spanked, they start a new company and do it again.

I should also add that there are some excellent builders out there. The ones that care about their clients and do a good job and stand behind their warranty.
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Last edited by leo; 03-07-2017 at 08:12 PM.
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  #39  
Old 03-07-2017, 08:43 PM
Raptor Boy Raptor Boy is offline
 
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Just seen a news story about a reputable Calgary builder that seems to be having issues and has a F rating at the bbb.....I agree with Leo in some regards, seen way to much bad quality workmanship in my 25 yrs in the residential construction of Calgary and area. Its really going to make it hard for a guy like me with all quality trades and contacts at countless suppliers to be a GC and build my own business.
Back to Walmart to be a greeter

http://calgary.ctvnews.ca/video?clip...ylistPageNum=1
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  #40  
Old 03-08-2017, 06:12 AM
Newview01 Newview01 is offline
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Originally Posted by pokey2 View Post
It's up to the elites to create a new social hierarchy if that's what they want to do (and perhaps that's what they're slowly working towards, but it would be nice if they'd hurry up).
All I got out of this is "my name is Karl Marx, and I've been reincarnated"

Last edited by Newview01; 03-08-2017 at 06:20 AM.
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  #41  
Old 03-08-2017, 06:18 AM
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Originally Posted by halang_99 View Post
I lived in Sask. for so long I feel like I can interpret ndp .What it means is if your not union you don't work
This is the ultimate goal here people.

If you can't see this, you are part of the problem.

There are many journeyman carpenters who couldn't frame a square garden shed, and there are many individuals who do not possess any type of construction education but build some of the best custom houses around. A piece of paper does not determine the quality of work. (Makes me think of the home school thread and teachers)
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  #42  
Old 03-08-2017, 09:02 AM
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Originally Posted by Newview01 View Post
There are many journeyman carpenters who couldn't frame a square garden shed, and there are many individuals who do not possess any type of construction education but build some of the best custom houses around. A piece of paper does not determine the quality of work. (Makes me think of the home school thread and teachers)
I agree 100%, however a red seal certificate is the only industry standard that I know of that is supposed to represent competency. Which reinforces my point, the shoddy ones need to get thinned out and there needs to be real repercussions for delivering substandard work. If industry had the wherewithal to manage it's own people and pull the reds seals on these duds, then the government wouldn't be shoving legislation down our throats. That will never happen with carpentry as long as it's a non protected trade. For the people out there that don't have a ticket but would like to get one, you can still apply to challenge the written and practical equivalent which still gives you a red seal. I believe you need 8000 qualified hours of practical field experience to do this. This is what I did 18 years ago when I had over 12,000 hours of qualified field work. The difference between me having a ticket and not is very apparent. Instead of being a Superintendent running and working on projects valued up to 1.4 Billion, I would be considered an experienced laborer. I don't think I need to spell it out any clearer.
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Last edited by leo; 03-08-2017 at 09:25 AM.
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  #43  
Old 03-08-2017, 09:39 AM
Newview01 Newview01 is offline
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I agree 100%, however a red seal certificate is the only industry standard that I know of that is supposed to represent competency. Which reinforces my point, the shoddy ones need to get thinned out and there needs to be real repercussions for delivering substandard work. If industry had the wherewithal to manage it's own people and pull the reds seals on these duds, then the government wouldn't be shoving legislation down our throats. That will never happen with carpentry as long as it's a non protected trade. For the people out there that don't have a ticket but would like to get one, you can still apply to challenge the written and practical equivalent which still gives you a red seal. I believe you need 8000 qualified hours of practical field experience to do this. This is what I did 18 years ago when I had over 12,000 hours of qualified field work. The difference between me having a ticket and not is very apparent. Instead of being a Superintendent running and working on projects valued up to 1.4 Billion, I would be considered an experienced laborer. I don't think I need to spell it out any clearer.
I agree.

Competent inspectors would help. Too many mistakes and your business is shut down.
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  #44  
Old 03-08-2017, 10:25 AM
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Iam all for better built homes, but a man should be able to build a home for himself if he wants to. Sure, it has to be up to code I understand that. But don't think for a minute that everything is built perfect in a house that's "inspected".
I have a very good idea how well or not so well some of these inspectors examine homes. Some don't even get out of the car. Just sign it off.
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  #45  
Old 03-08-2017, 10:46 AM
JDK71 JDK71 is offline
 
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you should be able to build your own house if you are able on your own property I have built my house and I will be adding on in the spring
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  #46  
Old 03-08-2017, 12:05 PM
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We built our own cabin a couple of years ago. It was time for the electrical inspection. Suppose to meet the inspector there at said time, on the way there he phones and says everything is good. Asked how he got in and he says I didn't I looked through the window.


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  #47  
Old 03-08-2017, 03:14 PM
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We built our own cabin a couple of years ago. It was time for the electrical inspection. Suppose to meet the inspector there at said time, on the way there he phones and says everything is good. Asked how he got in and he says I didn't I looked through the window.


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exactly what i was talking about
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  #48  
Old 03-08-2017, 03:43 PM
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First we need to take a breathe.
This a proposed legislation to control operations that are not properly funded from walking away from their obligations. If you are an individual or a large corporation, you need to be properly funded. That includes building your own house.
New NATIONAL building codes are not the product of the NDP, but will require a lot more professionalism in the building trades going forward.
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  #49  
Old 03-08-2017, 07:34 PM
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I agree with Leo on pretty much everything he said. Carpentry should be a protected trade and a journeyman certificate a requirement to be a contractor. It would definitely be a step in the right direction knowing that the person building your house or renovating your existing home has had training.
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  #50  
Old 03-08-2017, 07:36 PM
MBL MBL is offline
 
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And I also agree that homeowners should be able to build their own house if capable or general it themselves.
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  #51  
Old 03-08-2017, 09:10 PM
Newview01 Newview01 is offline
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I agree with Leo on pretty much everything he said. Carpentry should be a protected trade and a journeyman certificate a requirement to be a contractor. It would definitely be a step in the right direction knowing that the person building your house or renovating your existing home has had training.
Having the right training does not mean the quality of work will be up to par.

If there is to be a system of checks and balances, the work completed must be checked by a motivated and particular inspector.
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  #52  
Old 03-08-2017, 10:54 PM
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I agree
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  #53  
Old 03-09-2017, 09:19 AM
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I don't agree that home builder's need to have any sort of qualification in order to operate their business. 99% of them don't even do any of the actual construction themselves - everything is contracted out. Most home builders are nothing more than project managers who add a markup to everything that everyone else does for them. Buyer beware is all we need, not more legislation.

I also think it is a basic human right to be able to provide shelter for yourself and your family. But with the amount of government interference this is getting difficult in many places around the world. And don't even get me started on the building code. Some code requirements are only in there because a particular industry or interest group lobbied and won. Guess what this does to the cost and complexity of construction?
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  #54  
Old 03-09-2017, 10:28 AM
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Originally Posted by jpohlic View Post
I don't agree that home builder's need to have any sort of qualification in order to operate their business. 99% of them don't even do any of the actual construction themselves - everything is contracted out. Most home builders are nothing more than project managers who add a markup to everything that everyone else does for them. Buyer beware is all we need, not more legislation.

I also think it is a basic human right to be able to provide shelter for yourself and your family. But with the amount of government interference this is getting difficult in many places around the world. And don't even get me started on the building code. Some code requirements are only in there because a particular industry or interest group lobbied and won. Guess what this does to the cost and complexity of construction?
You are mostly correct in your first paragraph. Most builders are developers. They go in and buy up serviced lots in a subdivision. They usually(but not always) have a Superintendent who usually(but not always) has a trade certificate in construction. He or she is responsible to over see material delivery, schedule and quality of work on multiple houses at the same time. The labor force he or she is supervising are usually piece work contractors that get paid a unit rate for framing, roofing, concrete, drywall etc. These contractors generally (but not always) have no technical or equivalent construction background. They do have various degrees of on hands experience. Some are very good at what they do, some aren't. They make money by completing the work in the shortest time possible and moving to the next house. the checks and balances are all put on the shoulders of one person the developer may or may not have hired to oversee the building of this home. Quality control is a slippery slope in construction. As soon as it starts to cost the developer too much money, the person pointing out the mistakes sometimes gets fired and problems hidden. I've had this happen to me. I believe the inspection process of residential housing to be very poor for the most part. This is the responsibility of the municipality or city. In commercial and institutional construction, inspections are made regularly by all the consultants hired by the owner, and material testing is paramount to turning over a quality building, in other words it's all third party testing and very thorough.

As far as building code goes, yes there are a lot of codes brought about by lobbying. the biggest lobbying group is insurance companies, because it is the insurance rider during construction and homeowner insurance afterward that foots the bill for deficient work once the warranty is up.
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