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Old 04-30-2014, 02:45 PM
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Default Global Warming machine blinded to thinking

If this is true is destroys what credibility the environmentalists have and what their real agenda is.


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http://www.nationalreview.com/articl...-robert-zubrin


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NATIONAL REVIEW ONLINE WWW.NATIONALREVIEW.COM PRINT
APRIL 22, 2014 4:00 AM
The Pacific’s Salmon Are Back — Thank Human Ingenuity
Geoengineering could turn our long-barren oceans into a bounty.
By Robert Zubrin
In 2012, the British Columbia–based Native American Haida tribe launched an effort to restore the salmon fishery that has provided much of their livelihood for centuries. Acting collectively, the Haida voted to form the Haida Salmon Restoration Corporation, financed it with $2.5 million of their own savings, and used it to support the efforts of American scientist-entrepreneur Russ George to demonstrate the feasibility of open-sea mariculture — in this case, the distribution of 120 tons of iron sulfate into the northeast Pacific to stimulate a phytoplankton bloom which in turn would provide ample food for baby salmon.
The verdict is now in on this highly controversial experiment: It worked.
In fact it has been a stunningly over-the-top success. This year, the number of salmon caught in the northeast Pacific more than quadrupled, going from 50 million to 226 million. In the Fraser River, which only once before in history had a salmon run greater than 25 million fish (about 45 million in 2010), the number of salmon increased to 72 million.
George writes:
The fish really came back this fall, a year following our 2012 ocean pasture restoration in the NE Pacific. The wonderful heartening news is they came back in tremendous numbers, more than in all of recorded history in many regions such as SE Alaska nearest to our ocean restoration project location.
Now it is being reported that everywhere from Alaska to the lower 48, baby salmon that swam out to sea, instead of mostly starving were treated to a feast on newly vibrant ocean pastures where once they could neither thrive nor survive. They grew and grew and before too long they swam back to our rivers a hundred million strong.
The SE Alaska Pink catch in the fall of 2013 was a stunning 226.3 million fish. This when a high number of 50 million fish were expected. Those extra ocean pasture fed fish came back because their pasture was enjoying the richest plankton blooms ever, thanks to me a[nd] 11 shipmates and our work in the summer of 2012. IT JUST WORKS.
In addition to producing salmon, this extraordinary experiment has yielded a huge amount of data. Within a few months after the ocean-fertilizing operation, NASA satellite images taken from orbit showed a powerful growth of phytoplankton in the waters that received the Haida’s iron. It is now clear that, as hoped, these did indeed serve as a food source for zooplankton, which in turn provided nourishment for multitudes of young salmon, thereby restoring the depleted fishery and providing abundant food for larger fish and sea mammals. In addition, since those diatoms that were not eaten went to the bottom, a large amount of carbon dioxide was sequestered in their calcium carbonate shells.
Native Americans bringing back the salmon and preserving their way of life, while combating global warming: One would think that environmentalists would be very pleased.
One would be very wrong. Far from receiving applause for their initiative, the Haida and Mr. George have become the target of rage aimed from every corner of the community seeking to use global warming as a pretext for curtailing human freedom.
“It appears to be a blatant violation of two international resolutions,” Kristina Gjerde, a senior high-seas adviser for the International Union for Conservation of Nature told the Guardian. “Even the placement of iron particles into the ocean, whether for carbon sequestration or fish replenishment, should not take place, unless it is assessed and found to be legitimate scientific research without commercial motivation. This does not appear to even have had the guise of legitimate scientific research.”
Silvia Ribeiro, of the international anti-technology watchdog ETC Group, also voiced her horror at any development that might allow humanity to escape from the need for carbon rationing. “It is now more urgent than ever that governments unequivocally ban such open-air geoengineering experiments,” she said. “They are a dangerous distraction providing governments and industry with an excuse to avoid reducing fossil-fuel emissions.”
Writing in the New York Times in 2012, Naomi Klein, the author of a forthcoming book on “how the climate crisis can spur economic and political transformation,” made clear the antihuman bias underlying the Haida’s critics. Klein reported that while vacationing on the coast of Canada’s British Columbia, in a place she had visited for the past 20 years, she was thrilled by the unprecedented sighting of a group of orcas. At first, “it felt like a miracle.” But then she was struck by a disturbing thought:
If Mr. George’s account of the mission is to believed, his actions created an algae bloom in an area half of the size of Massachusetts that attracted a huge array of aquatic life, including whales that could be ‘counted by the score.’ . . . I began to wonder: could it be that the orcas I saw were on the way to the all you can eat seafood buffet that had descended on Mr. George’s bloom? The possibility . . . provides a glimpse into the disturbing repercussions of geoengineering: once we start deliberately interfering with the earth’s climate systems — whether by dimming the sun or fertilizing the seas — all natural events can begin to take on an unnatural tinge. . . . a presence that felt like a miraculous gift suddenly feels sinister, as if all of nature were being manipulated behind the scenes.
This is a remarkable passage. Previously, environmentalists objected to human actions that harmed whales. But now, human actions that help whales also evoke horror. Clearly, it’s not about whales at all. It’s about prohibiting human activity, which is seen as intrinsically evil and therefore in need of constraint regardless of its content or intent.
Responding to these and similar antihuman ravings, the Canadian government went so far as to send gun-toting flak-vest-armored Environment Canada agents to raid the headquarters of the offices of the HSRC. George has been forced to resign the presidency of the corporation, as the desperate proponents of carbon rationing and fishing restriction scream for his head.
But the salmon are back.
Contrary to those who have denounced the experiment as reckless, its probable success was predicted in advance by leading fisheries scientists. “While I agree that the procedure was scientifically hasty and controversial, the purpose of enhancing salmon returns by increasing plankton production has considerable justification,” Timothy Parsons, professor emeritus of fisheries science at the University of British Columbia, told the Vancouver Sun in 2012. According to Parsons, the waters of the Gulf of Alaska are so nutrient-poor they are a “virtual desert dominated by jellyfish.” But iron-rich volcanic dust stimulates growth of diatoms, a form of algae that he describes as “the clover of the sea.” As a result, volcanic eruptions over the Gulf of Alaska in 1958 and 2008 “both resulted in enormous sockeye salmon returns.”
Unfortunately, while the potential of open-sea mariculture has been known for decades, experiments by established agencies that would validate the concept and lead to its commercialization have been blocked at every turn by regulators, who deemed such efforts at oceanic fertilization to be possible violations of U.N. protocols banning marine dumping. It took the daring George-Haida team to jump past the regulatory quagmire and break the impasse.
The George-Haida experiment is of world-historical significance. Starting as a few bands of hunter-gatherers, humanity expanded the food resources afforded by the land a thousandfold through the development of agriculture. In recent decades, the bounty from the sea has also been increased through rapid expansion of aquaculture, which now supplies about half our fish. Without these advances, our modern global civilization of 7 billion people would not be possible.
But aquaculture makes use only of enclosed waters, and commercial fisheries remain limited to the coasts, upwelling areas, and other small portions of the ocean that have sufficient nutrients to be naturally productive. The vast majority of the ocean, and thus the earth, remains a desert. The development of open-sea mariculture could change this radically, creating vast new food resources for both humanity and wildlife. Furthermore, just as increased atmospheric carbon dioxide levels have accelerated the rate of plant growth on land (by 14 percent since 1958, according to NASA satellite data), so increased levels of carbon dioxide in the ocean could lead to a massive expansion of flourishing sea life, provided that humans make the missing critical trace elements needed for life available across the vast expanse of the oceans.
The point deserves emphasis. The advent of higher carbon dioxide levels in the atmosphere has been a great boon for the terrestrial biosphere, accelerating the rate of growth of both wild and domestic plants and thereby expanding the food base supporting humans and land animals of every type. Ignoring this, the carbophobes point to the ocean instead, saying that increased levels of carbon dioxide not exploited by biology could lead to acidification. By making the currently barren oceans fertile, however, mariculture would transform this putative problem into an extraordinary opportunity.
Which is precisely why those demanding restraints on carbon emissions and restrictions on fisheries hate mariculture. They hate it for the same reason those demanding constraints in the name of allegedly limited energy resources hate nuclear power. They hate it because it solves a problem they need unsolved.
The ultimate question comes down to this: Are humans creators or destroyers? If it is accepted that we are simply agents of destruction, consuming or ruining resources that existed before we came, then it follows that human activities, numbers, and liberties must be severely constrained and that someone must be empowered to do the constraining. On the other hand, if it is understood that humanity is fundamentally a creative force, that we invent resources and improve the world — unleashing abundance, lighting the night, ridding continents of pestilence, and bringing barren oceans to life — then it becomes clear that the essential mission of government is not to limit liberty, but to defend it at all costs.
By advancing the case for humanity, the Haida have rendered us all a signal service.
Happy Earth Day!
— Robert Zubrin is president of Pioneer Energy, a senior fellow with the Center for Security Policy, and the author of Energy Victory: Winning the War on Terror by Breaking Free of Oil. The paperback edition of his newest book, Merchants of Despair: Radical Environmentalists, Criminal Pseudo-Scientists, and the Fatal Cult of Antihumanism was recently published by Encounter Books.


http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Robert_Zubrin
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Old 04-30-2014, 03:40 PM
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It is an idiotic attempt at once again for man to control his environment.

Haven't we learned anything from past failures? Why are we trying to fix broken bones with bandages?
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Old 04-30-2014, 04:50 PM
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It is an idiotic attempt at once again for man to control his environment.

Haven't we learned anything from past failures? Why are we trying to fix broken bones with bandages?
Did you read the results? You dismiss it so quickly.
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Old 04-30-2014, 04:51 PM
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Wonder what the unintended consequences will be?
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Old 04-30-2014, 06:38 PM
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It is an idiotic attempt at once again for man to control his environment.

Haven't we learned anything from past failures? Why are we trying to fix broken bones with bandages?
According to you we are in complete control of the environment by simply throttling CO2 emissions. Afterall the IPCC and their 97% 'scientific' method you keep harping about says so, no?

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Old 04-30-2014, 06:46 PM
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According to you we are in complete control of the environment by simply throttling CO2 emissions.
I said that?

When and where? Show me.

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Afterall the IPCC and their 97% 'scientific' method you keep harping about says so, no?
You prefer opinions from those that are not climatologists or in related fields? Would you go to a herbal quack rather than a doctor if you had a serous disease? At some point those that study the issues need to be listened to.

Willfully not doing so enhances ignorance.

Bet you think weather and climate is the same thing. And our cold winters prove global warming is a hoax.

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Old 04-30-2014, 07:05 PM
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Wonder what the unintended consequences will be?
Only one I have heard of so far is that no sail boats are allowed in the test area, which is good, we don't have to put up with those guys in their funny hats.....
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Old 04-30-2014, 07:10 PM
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It is an idiotic attempt at once again for man to control his environment.

Haven't we learned anything from past failures? Why are we trying to fix broken bones with bandages?
Why do you call this a failure?

Oh, I know why. Indians are too stupid to make any money in sea ranching.

BTW: I am related to those Haidas. The George family has some pretty conservative investors and cost accountants.

If these stupid scientists who can't fight their way out of paper bag can't do anything except create a disease filled fish farming operation, I say it is time to move on.
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Old 04-30-2014, 07:16 PM
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Why do you call this a failure?

Oh, I know why. Indians are too stupid to make any money in sea ranching.

BTW: I am related to those Haidas. The George family has some pretty conservative investors and cost accountants.

If these stupid scientists who can't fight their way out of paper bag can't do anything except create a disease filled fish farming operation, I say it is time to move on.
You and I are on the same page on that fish farming stuff. As is our buddy Suzuki and May.
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Old 04-30-2014, 07:18 PM
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Only one I have heard of so far is that no sail boats are allowed in the st area, which is good, we don't have to put up with those guys in their funny hats.....
Those crazy sailboat guys.

I've heard them described as WAFI's.
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Old 04-30-2014, 07:23 PM
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You prefer opinions from those that are not climatologists or in related fields? Would you go to a herbal quack rather than a doctor if you had a serous disease? At some point those that study the issues need to be listened to.
When the world health org tells us what we already know about the rise of super bugs as a result of our abuse of frontline drugs, you need to seriously review your sources.
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Old 04-30-2014, 07:34 PM
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Wonder what the unintended consequences will be?
So you add iron. Create an plankton bloom. Feed a bunch of fish and a ton of carbon sinks to the bottom of the ocean.

Now who is a non believer?
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Old 04-30-2014, 08:39 PM
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This could bankrupt the fish farming corporations which may anger Suzuki for the loss of a money maker for his group. Phytoplankton pumps more Oxygen into the atmosphere than terrestrial plants. Golly!
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Old 04-30-2014, 09:00 PM
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There was talk of this method years ago as a method of CO2 sequestration. Win/Win in my mind.
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Old 04-30-2014, 09:15 PM
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can you dry the plankton out? Roll some up and smoke some? Maybe it would be a substitute to high thc cocaine narcotic marihuana?

I am calling this " the global less warming cooling ice age it is warming and benefits salamanders but not warming cocaine marijuana liberal gun control conspiracy"

I think smoking photplankton and voting for danielle smith will ease usa food stamp budgets and immigration crisis where the nanny state controls dorito rations in a marijuana fueled consiracy to create a cooler ice age by tricking people into thinking its global warmingbut it really is just cows farting.


I think these issues should be T the forefront of the dubunking line up, I sincerely think if we could google enough statistics and graphs we could post them on internet forums and a bunch of people will read them and not care.... then poke fun at the authors for trolling each other on the interweb.

You and avb should just get married already, lol
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Old 04-30-2014, 09:26 PM
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Concerns the EPA had were as follows:

Planktos, Inc. was not able to provide the EPA with any information relating to an evaluation by the company or by any regulatory body of the potential environmental impacts of their planned iron addition projects, such as:

-the estimated amount and potential impacts of iron that is not taken up by phytoplankton;

-the amounts and potential impacts of other materials that may be released with the iron;

-the estimated amounts and potential impacts of other gases that may be produced by the expected phytoplankton blooms or by bacteria decomposing the dead phytoplankton;

-the estimated extent and potential impacts of deep ocean hypoxia (low oxygen) or anoxia (no oxygen) caused by the bacterial decay of the expected phytoplankton blooms;

-or the types of phytoplankton that are expected to bloom and the potential impacts of any harmful algal blooms that may develop.

Apparently the Haida are backing away from this:

"The president of the Haida nation, Guujaaw, said the village was told the dump would environmentally benefit the ocean, which is crucial to their livelihood and culture.

”The village people voted to support what they were told was a ‘salmon enhancement project’ and would not have agreed if they had been told of any potential negative effects or that it was in breach of an international convention,” Guujaaw said."

Anybody still think this is something that at the very least should be proceeded with caution?

Remember my concern of unintended consequences? This is a clear case where the precautionary principle absolutely should be applied.

History is full of examples of ecological manipulations that backfired.
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Old 04-30-2014, 09:31 PM
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......

You and avb should just get married already, lol
But then I would have to listen to the hen party he would bring along all cackling the same denier tune. What a cacophonous sound. It could drive one to drink.

Oh, the humanity!!!
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Old 04-30-2014, 09:41 PM
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One thing to keep in mind that the pink salmon returns were great, amazing actually, but there is no evidence to directly relate that to the dumping of the iron. We will know more after this summer and next as pink salmon are on a 2 yr cycle, coho generally 3, chinook 3-5. So when these other species return and if in big numbers it will START to show causation. But as of now none has been shown sundance. I'm cautiously optimistic however.

But it is much too early to say it is due to the iron dumping that the returns are so great. Far far too many other possibilities and factors in salmon returns
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Old 04-30-2014, 09:50 PM
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Wonder what the unintended consequences will be?
Exactly.

An interesting experiment, and worth continuing to monitor, but free-lunch thinking is for cornucopians.
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Old 04-30-2014, 09:54 PM
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But then I would have to listen to the hen party he would bring along all cackling the same denier tune. What a cacophonous sound. It could drive one to drink.

Oh, the humanity!!!
Lol

You could swoon to the gentle cacophonous sounds of your global warming pipe organ Neil Young.

Although you will likely start debating him on his Carbon footprint.

Apparently having a prime seat at the San Jose / Kings game is a good use of carbon. Air conditioning a large stadium just to sell disposable drink and food containers and create artificial ice take a massive amount of energy.
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Old 04-30-2014, 09:55 PM
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don't forget that Chinook migrate to the far east pacific and back via Hawaii.and the Aleutian archipelago. coho also spend the early part of their life in the rivers as well and are highly territorial too. a river can only support a certain limit of coho fry depending on water levels and suitable habitat. sockeye could benefit from this though, so long as the bloom were to have a positive effect at the depths which they live.
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Old 04-30-2014, 09:59 PM
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One thing to keep in mind that the pink salmon returns were great, amazing actually, but there is no evidence to directly relate that to the dumping of the iron. We will know more after this summer and next as pink salmon are on a 2 yr cycle, coho generally 3, chinook 3-5. So when these other species return and if in big numbers it will START to show causation. But as of now none has been shown sundance. I'm cautiously optimistic however.

But it is much too early to say it is due to the iron dumping that the returns are so great. Far far too many other possibilities and factors in salmon returns
Agreed. Unlike global warming studies this one can be tested and repeated.

If adding iron to the ocean creates more food with the added benefit pof sequestering carbon...we could have the perfect fix. Problems will occur when scientists say too much carbon is lost and the earth is indeed cooling. Then a whole new batch of reverse guesses will occur.
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Old 04-30-2014, 10:05 PM
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Concerns the EPA had were as follows:

Planktos, Inc. was not able to provide the EPA with any information relating to an evaluation by the company or by any regulatory body of the potential environmental impacts of their planned iron addition projects, such as:

-the estimated amount and potential impacts of iron that is not taken up by phytoplankton;

-the amounts and potential impacts of other materials that may be released with the iron;

-the estimated amounts and potential impacts of other gases that may be produced by the expected phytoplankton blooms or by bacteria decomposing the dead phytoplankton;

-the estimated extent and potential impacts of deep ocean hypoxia (low oxygen) or anoxia (no oxygen) caused by the bacterial decay of the expected phytoplankton blooms;

-or the types of phytoplankton that are expected to bloom and the potential impacts of any harmful algal blooms that may develop.

Apparently the Haida are backing away from this:

"The president of the Haida nation, Guujaaw, said the village was told the dump would environmentally benefit the ocean, which is crucial to their livelihood and culture.

”The village people voted to support what they were told was a ‘salmon enhancement project’ and would not have agreed if they had been told of any potential negative effects or that it was in breach of an international convention,” Guujaaw said."

Anybody still think this is something that at the very least should be proceeded with caution?

Remember my concern of unintended consequences? This is a clear case where the precautionary principle absolutely should be applied.

History is full of examples of ecological manipulations that backfired.
So many questions...yet all the harm misdirected focus of a non existent man made global warming fear gets ignored.

Warming actually helps the earth. Ignored. Reduced global money to help hunger. Lost. To help fight disease. Lost. To bring fresh drinking water. Lost. To bring lights. Lost. So much money redirected into unproven man made global warming.

Global warming alarmists want to drastically chance people and don't really know the consequences of not fixing other proven problems first.

But they can't stomach putting iron shavings in the ocean to increase plankton growth.

Too funny.
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Old 04-30-2014, 10:14 PM
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Exactly.

An interesting experiment, and worth continuing to monitor, but free-lunch thinking is for cornucopians.
Pesky???...are you back already???, cool!!!
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Old 04-30-2014, 10:17 PM
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the fact that geo-engineering is being done without consultation by any effected parties is an issue Sundance.

ignore the fear and ignorance from both sides and look at the action itself.
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Old 04-30-2014, 10:45 PM
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the fact that geo-engineering is being done without consultation by any effected parties is an issue Sundance.

ignore the fear and ignorance from both sides and look at the action itself.
Lots of actions being taken based upon global warming fears. No consultation...just hyping in the media to create a frenzy. For what real reason..
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Old 04-30-2014, 10:59 PM
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Lots of actions being taken based upon global warming fears. No consultation...just hyping in the media to create a frenzy. For what real reason..
what actions are you speaking about? media hype is not a direct action like dumping 120tons of iron sulfide. fertilizer would work too, should we think dumping that into the oceans and waterways is a good thing? how much is too much, one ship and crew dumped 120 tons, what about 6 ships, a dozen? without any oversight or control. Dosage is important.

another thing to consider is the dead salmon on the river banks. it's not a pleasant smell you know. it also makes fall steelhead fishing treacherous. ever slipped on a rotting pink only to land on a half dozen more? how much carbon sequestering is really being done if the biomass is left to rot creating methane, a more potent greenhouse gas. plus enough rotting meat could pollute and harm resident species.

unintended consequences.

fortune favors the bold, but the bold die young.
bears will be fat though.

I've already went over the real reasons, imo, in a previous thread.
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  #28  
Old 05-01-2014, 12:10 AM
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leeaspell leeaspell is offline
 
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Old 05-01-2014, 10:02 AM
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smartypants smartypants is offline
 
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Originally Posted by avb3 View Post
I said that?

When and where? Show me.



You prefer opinions from those that are not climatologists or in related fields? Would you go to a herbal quack rather than a doctor if you had a serous disease? At some point those that study the issues need to be listened to.

Willfully not doing so enhances ignorance.

Bet you think weather and climate is the same thing. And our cold winters prove global warming is a hoax.

That is the premise of your delusion. The 'science' is somehow 'settled'. 'x' amount of co2 translates into 'y' temperature gradient. So we can simply cool down the planet by lowering our CO2 emissions....this is what your alleged 'scientific' 'consensus' is telling you no? After all, this is what all your fellow true believers in 'the Cause' , the Gores/suzuki/Manns etal, would have everyone believe. Where are all the systems of differential equations that spew out this CO2/temp relationship? ohh, right, your brand of science requires no support of measurable data to prove the theory. How convenient that must be for you.

As to the climate/weather nonsense....another bait and switch, another tired non-statement from the alarmist bag of excuses..how does it go again?..if it's warmer, you will say it's climate change or global 'warming'....if it's cooler, ohh, that's simply weather.....rigght...
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Old 05-01-2014, 11:52 AM
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Sundancefisher Sundancefisher is online now
 
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Originally Posted by smartypants View Post
if it's warmer, you will say it's climate change or global 'warming'....if it's cooler, ohh, that's simply weather.....rigght...
http://science.time.com/2014/01/06/c...-cold-weather/

no. global warming alarmists say colder weather is caused by global warming. Interestingly enough back in the 1970's same scientists said global cooling causes polar vortexes.
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