Winchester 1886 45/70 Chambering Issue

[Fowl91]

Hi folks,

I recently purchased a Winchester 1886 in 45/70, made by Miroku. I loaded some 350gr Hornady RN and set out to do some testing. I couldn't get the first cartridge chambered properly, but after a little pressure on the lever it settled in. I decided not to shoot and ejected the round, and I noticed some rifling grooves on the bullet. I tried to re-chamber that one and it went in again with a little pressure, but I shot it and all was good. The second cartridge was a bit easier and it shot just fine again. The third, fourth, and fifth would not chamber at all. All of them showing rifling on the bullets.

I got home and checked COL @ 2.535", which according to the Hornady Manual is fine. After some research I have found that some of the Win 1886 models have short throats and a consistent fix seems to be reaming them out to accept certain bullets.
Has anyone run into this issue before?
It seems simple enough, but some insight is always appreciated from those who have the experience.
Also wondering if anyone knows of a gunsmith who might be able to do this for me. My regular guy isn't taking any business right now.

Thanks

[fps plus]

That’s a issue that I have never run across. It’s pretty obvious that it is the issue if you are engraving the bullets .Either need to run a chamber reamer in or just a throat reamer .

[W921]

With jacketed bullets I would be concerned about pressure if they are engaging the rifling.
45/70 is a heck of a great cast bullet cartridge. Tight chambers are great with cast bullets.
What kind of velocity do you think you need? Ever think about getting into casting your own?
With 4 or 500 grain bullets you don't need smokeless powder velocities. They kill way better than those ballistic charts will have you believe.

[W921]

Is it engaging on the ogive or is it engaging the bullet right where it leaves the brass case?

[Fowl91]

Originally Posted by W921

With jacketed bullets I would be concerned about pressure if they are engaging the rifling.
45/70 is a heck of a great cast bullet cartridge. Tight chambers are great with cast bullets.
What kind of velocity do you think you need? Ever think about getting into casting your own?
With 4 or 500 grain bullets you don't need smokeless powder velocities. They kill way better than those ballistic charts will have you believe.

Thought about casting my own, just don't have the tooling yet.
If it is easier to change the bullet than ream the throat then I surely could do that.

And it is engaging on the ogive.

The previous owner shot Hornady FTX Factory ammo I believe. He did not mention any issues with feeding.

[W921]

Casting your own can be a lot of fun and very rewarding. Your cost per round will go down dramatically but the truth is your just going to end up shooting thousands of rounds every year and getting custom moulds made,etc. So its not really about saving money. But I dont understand why everybody isn't doing it unless they just flat out dont have the time.
Years ago when I was into this I was shooting old original black powder cartridge as well as older smokeless guns. A lot of them original guns and I dont just mean 86s but most of them were not very tightly chambered and or had longer throats. For me it was really special to get my hands on to one that had a good chamber. You could just do so much more with them.
Most of them you had to use lathe made brass or form your case from a thicker walled parent case to end up with thicker brass especially at the case mouth to make up for sloppy chambers. Indexing cases and belling the case mouths to try to center the bullet and stuff like that.
Now with your throat being tight and I can't really see from here how tight it is but with a lot of guns and it depends on what cast bullet your using. With a lot of them you have to seat your bullet to far out of the case. This can leave grease groves exposed and or mess up your overall length so it won't work in your action.
It just seems like a sin to bore out what might turn out to be an excellent shooter.

[Dean2]

Easy fix, seat the bullets a little deeper when using the Jacketed RN. If you want to be able to crimp on the canaleur just trim the brass short enough that the end of the case and the caneleur are in the same place. FTX factory ammo uses a shorter case to start with and has a much sharper ogive so he would of had no trouble with them in this gun. In fact I would bet that Hornady factory FTX brass will allow you to seat the 350 RN deep enough and still crimp them if you want to. If you want to shoot cast bullets the shorter throat will not cause any problems even if they are jammed into the lands a bit but you don't want jacketed bullets jammed into the rifling.

[Fowl91]

Thanks Dean2,
I looked at the Hornady Manual again and noticed that for FTX bullets they have a recommended brass trim length of 2.040”.
I’m assuming if I go by that I should be fine with the jacketed RN as well. Just need to figure out the COL for my chamber and determine seating depth. This is definitely a preferable solution to reaming.

[Fowl91]

Originally Posted by W921

Casting your own can be a lot of fun and very rewarding. Your cost per round will go down dramatically but the truth is your just going to end up shooting thousands of rounds every year and getting custom moulds made,etc. So its not really about saving money. But I dont understand why everybody isn't doing it unless they just flat out dont have the time.
Years ago when I was into this I was shooting old original black powder cartridge as well as older smokeless guns. A lot of them original guns and I dont just mean 86s but most of them were not very tightly chambered and or had longer throats. For me it was really special to get my hands on to one that had a good chamber. You could just do so much more with them.
Most of them you had to use lathe made brass or form your case from a thicker walled parent case to end up with thicker brass especially at the case mouth to make up for sloppy chambers. Indexing cases and belling the case mouths to try to center the bullet and stuff like that.
Now with your throat being tight and I can't really see from here how tight it is but with a lot of guns and it depends on what cast bullet your using. With a lot of them you have to seat your bullet to far out of the case. This can leave grease groves exposed and or mess up your overall length so it won't work in your action.
It just seems like a sin to bore out what might turn out to be an excellent shooter.

I agree. I’ll be looking into casting components today.

[Dean2]

Originally Posted by Fowl91

Thanks Dean2,
I looked at the Hornady Manual again and noticed that for FTX bullets they have a recommended brass trim length of 2.040”.
I’m assuming if I go by that I should be fine with the jacketed RN as well. Just need to figure out the COL for my chamber and determine seating depth. This is definitely a preferable solution to reaming.

With your gun being a single shot you don't really need to crimp your bullets in. As long as you aren't crimping it doesn't matter if the canalleur is below the end of the case or not and the normal trim length will work fine. Using the shorter brass only matters if you are loading them into a tubular madg where the recoil may move the bullet in the case.

Size an empty case just enough to close the neck a little so it will lightly hold the 350 RN bullet, just push the bullet in far enough for it to hold well. Chamber the empty case and bullet and that should push the bullet into the case. Measure, do it 3 or 4 times gently to verify. Seat your bullets .010 shorter than the measurement you get. You may have to redo this measurement if you use a bullet with a different ogive.

[Fowl91]

Originally Posted by Dean2

With your gun being a single shot you don't really need to crimp your bullets in. As long as you aren't crimping it doesn't matter if the canalleur is below the end of the case or not and the normal trim length will work fine. Using the shorter brass only matters if you are loading them into a tubular madg where the recoil may move the bullet in the case.

Size an empty case just enough to close the neck a little so it will lightly hold the 350 RN bullet, just push the bullet in far enough for it to hold well. Chamber the empty case and bullet and that should push the bullet into the case. Measure, do it 3 or 4 times gently to verify. Seat your bullets .010 shorter than the measurement you get. You may have to redo this measurement if you use a bullet with a different ogive.

Yes I've done that COL measurement before on bolt actions and single shots. The 1886 is a lever action, so crimping will be necessary.

If I can match the Overall length to the ogive of Factory FTX ammunition to the ogive of my handholds then all should work. As long as the brass length still blows for a crimp.

[Dean2]

Originally Posted by Fowl91

Yes I've done that COL measurement before on bolt actions and single shots. The 1886 is a lever action, so crimping will be necessary.

If I can match the Overall length to the ogive of Factory FTX ammunition to the ogive of my handholds then all should work. As long as the brass length still blows for a crimp.

Sorry, I was reading 1885 not 1886. Yes, it will need a crimp. You can try to use FTX ogive measurement. It may not be dead on but should get you very close. The two bullet shapes are quite different, with the FTX having a much more rapid taper so relative ogive diameter and placements may be off a tad. Worse to worse you will just have to seat the 350 RN a little deeper till it doesn't bind or engrave. Smoking the 350 bullet will help spot any touching.

[Fowl91]

Originally Posted by Dean2

Sorry, I was reading 1885 not 1886. Yes, it will need a crimp. You can try to use FTX ogive measurement. It may not be dead on but should get you very close. The two bullet shapes are quite different, with the FTX having a much more rapid taper so relative ogive diameter and placements may be off a tad. Worse to worse you will just have to seat the 350 RN a little deeper till it doesn't bind or engrave. Smoking the 350 bullet will help spot any touching.

So I opened the mouth of one unprimed case and lightly seated a bullet. Then removed it and seated again to ensure easy movement, this time marking the bullet with black felt marker. I chambered the round and let the lands push the bullet back. I recorded the measurement at 2.497", which bodes well as i found some literature online stating Win 1886 chambers are cut to 2.500". I then pulled the bullet and measured the distance between the cannelure and the point where the marker was rubbed off. It was roughly 0.040".

The Hornady manual states brass trim length to 2.095" and the FTX bullets require a trim length of 2.040". I subtracted my 0.040" and trimmed a test case to 2.055". I then seated a bullet to the cannelure for an overall length of 2.490", where as my first test rounds were seated to an overall length of 2.530"... a 0.040" difference. So the math checks out, and physically the test cartridge chambered and extracted perfectly.

I can't see any harm in a shorter case except probable pressure differences, which should be fine as I work my load up from the bottom.
Anything I missed here?

[Dean2]

Originally Posted by Fowl91

So I opened the mouth of one unprimed case and lightly seated a bullet. Then removed it and seated again to ensure easy movement, this time marking the bullet with black felt marker. I chambered the round and let the lands push the bullet back. I recorded the measurement at 2.497", which bodes well as i found some literature online stating Win 1886 chambers are cut to 2.500". I then pulled the bullet and measured the distance between the cannelure and the point where the marker was rubbed off. It was roughly 0.040".

The Hornady manual states brass trim length to 2.095" and the FTX bullets require a trim length of 2.040". I subtracted my 0.040" and trimmed a test case to 2.055". I then seated a bullet to the cannelure for an overall length of 2.490", where as my first test rounds were seated to an overall length of 2.530"... a 0.040" difference. So the math checks out, and physically the test cartridge chambered and extracted perfectly.

I can't see any harm in a shorter case except probable pressure differences, which should be fine as I work my load up from the bottom.
Anything I missed here?

I would say you are good to go. As long as u are making smokeless powder loads the 4 hundreds shorter case will make virtually no difference. You are going to work up the loads anyhow. One suggestion, use magnum primers when developing your loads. You will get a much better powder burn and not have unburnt kernels in the barrel and action. Straight wall cases take more exuberant ignition to get a complete burn.

[Fowl91]

Sounds good. I was using CCI BR2s but have a stash of Remington Magnum primers i believe.