Wolves wrecking sheep hunting.

[sheepguide]

Originally Posted by scrapper

Hunters in general are anxious to play the blame game, some guy gets lazy, doesn't put in the effort and can't fill his tag. First thing out of his mouth is blame the wolves for low populations. Frankly I am sick of that BS. The wolves are a sign of a healthy Eco system.

You may wanna go into west central Alberta and look at your elk populations. Some wintering grounds have gone from 4000+head to 300 head. And that wasnt due to two legged hunters! Has nothing to do with lazy!! When tag numbers are lowered to 5 tags each for elk and moose per WMU per year there is an issue! Wolves and predators in general are plentiful and at all time highs and ungulate numbers are all down. So is that sign of a healthy ecosystem? Hunters are playing the blame game!! They are blaming predators and know that things need to change. These changes need to be made by all users. And right now hunting and trapping are the only managment tools we have at this point and both need to be utilized to even just hold populations but seems neither group want any part of it.

[norwestalta]

Originally Posted by scrapper

Hunters in general are anxious to play the blame game, some guy gets lazy, doesn't put in the effort and can't fill his tag. First thing out of his mouth is blame the wolves for low populations. Frankly I am sick of that BS. The wolves are a sign of a healthy Eco system.

I have got to agree with this. Nothing for wolves to eat no wolves.

[Coiloil37]

Originally Posted by sheepguide

Called sitting at work bud!! If I could be outside instead of stuck on a bombing range that has had zero hunting in 50+ years babysitting a drilling rig I would be!! Week to go and ill be out there!!

Really? Aren't you a centrifuge hand? Funniest post I've seen from you yet.

Babysitting a drilling rig. Lol

[6.5swedeforelk]

Originally Posted by sheepguide

Pig blood and sponges!!

Hmm, you know about that.

[KegRiver]

I see Wolves being blamed for low ungulate numbers but it's not clear to me that they are to blame.

I know that a study published by Schwartz and Franzmann of Kenai Moose Research Center, Alaska Department of Fish and Game, found that Bears were far more significant predators of Moose calf's then Wolves were in that study.

Here are some numbers they came up with. These are the numbers of radio collared Moose calves taken by predators in their study.

1977
number killed % of total
Black bear 6 40.0
Brown bear 1 6.7
Wolf 1 6.7

1978
number killed % of total
Black bear 10 41.7
Brown bear 2 8.3
Wolf 2 8.3


So bears took 46% of the total number killed and Wolves only took 6.7% in the first year of the study while Bears took 50% to the Wolves 8.3% in the second year of the study.

A similar study carried out by the Manitoba F&W came up with similar results.

My experience living in the north as a trapped and a hunter, suggests that there are a lot of factors other then just wolves at play here.

In the Manitoba study as many bears as was possible were removed from the study area and the result was the Moose population almost doubled in one year.

That suggests to me that Bears may be the most significant predator of Moose in those areas and it would be reasonable to suspect they may be the most significant predator of all ungulates in all of north America.

Things I have observed suggest to me that human activity may have more effect then all the predators combined.

It's not only hunting and trapping that effect Wolf numbers, clearly prey availability has an even bigger impact.
I am convinced that some species have benefited greatly from human activity. Deer Elk and Wolves specifically.

When I was growing up there were no Elk in the Peace region and very few Deer and Wolves.
Now we have plenty of all three while the Moose numbers are way down.

We can point fingers at each other all day long and it will solve nothing.
All that will do is make us all look like a bunch of idiots to the non hunting public. This is what we can not afford to have happen.

As for the Wolf predation on ungulates, I doubt very much that there is a simple solution.
We can not force anyone to deal with the problem for free, or at a loss, which is what some are suggesting.

Trappers trap to make a living, they can not afford to focus one just one fur bearing species and hunters hunt for food and recreation. So it's not reasonable to expect them to deal with the problem.

I'm not even sure Wolves are that big a factor. From what I have read, including the studies mentioned, Bears may be a bigger factor.

Others will do what they will do, as for me, I see no reasonable option other then to put my faith in those paid to deal with wildlife issues, no matter how poor a job it may seem they are doing.

At least they have the research, the tools and the mandate to deal with such issues. I have none of those things.

[wolfkiller]

From someone who sees first hand wolf predation problems on registered traplines, soon as ADC permit is written and I go to work, than the registered trapper is all concerned about "his wolves".The whole point of sheepguides thread is not about "all" trappers, but the ones who don't actually get out there and trap. And if you so called "hunters" are such expert outdoorsman, when are you going to realize that yes there is a predation problem in a lot of areas throughout Alberta. A lot of Fur affidavits that are filled out yearly are not worth the paper there written on, some trappers understate there actual harvests to "protect" productive trapping areas, or exaggerate there catch to pamper their egos or reflect what there catch should have been under "normal" circumstances, and that is a Fact. And areas where theres problem packs and Esrd gets after the trapper to maybe try harder for wolves, they answer back well I caught 15 last yr, when they actually caught 0. I brought it up 3 yrs ago with biologists and officers that I work with that trappers wolf catches where problem packs are year after year, it should be mandatory check in of any wolf caught, cause some trappers "word" is not the honest truth. Rant over. And who really cares what sheepguide does for a living, like is that all you can find to try and bash him on, unbelievable.

[sheepguide]

Originally Posted by KegRiver

I'm not even sure Wolves are that big a factor. From what I have read, including the studies mentioned, Bears may be a bigger factor.

Deffinatly a possibility but in the mountain zones that have been the hardest hit this would push to say that Grizzly numbers are then extremely high not at levels anywhere near as low as suggested. Blackbears have a huge factor on moose and elk calves in many areas for sure. But in areas such as our main mountain zones and parks blk bear numbers I dont believe are near as significant as many of the study areas or in places such as Northern Alberta. Would be nice to see a study to show all predator numbers in areas hit hardest.

[sheepguide]

Originally Posted by Coiloil37

Really? Aren't you a centrifuge hand? Funniest post I've seen from you yet.

Babysitting a drilling rig. Lol

Actually no im not a centrifuge hand if you really must know!! Good to see your with the times.

Here you want me to tell you exactly what I do and have done on rigs as it seems to be a huge deal to some!!!! Hope its a satisfactory career for you guys!!

1994 - 1995 Terreco Drilling Rig 3 Rough neck and Motors
1995 - 2003 Nabors Drilling. Last 7 years all positions on Nabors old rig #89 a 7000m foothills rig from roughneck up to drilling for 1.5yrs.
2003 - 2004 Ensign Drilling Derrick and Drilling
2004 - 2010 NOV Brandt Centrifuges on site services.
2010 - present Marquis/Alliance Energy Group On Site Drilling Fluid Engineer specializing in SAGD systems.

[KegRiver]

Originally Posted by wolfkiller

From someone who sees first hand wolf predation problems on registered traplines, soon as ADC permit is written and I go to work, than the registered trapper is all concerned about "his wolves".The whole point of sheepguides thread is not about "all" trappers, but the ones who don't actually get out there and trap. And if you so called "hunters" are such expert outdoorsman, when are you going to realize that yes there is a predation problem in a lot of areas throughout Alberta. A lot of Fur affidavits that are filled out yearly are not worth the paper there written on, some trappers understate there actual harvests to "protect" productive trapping areas, or exaggerate there catch to pamper their egos or reflect what there catch should have been under "normal" circumstances, and that is a Fact. And areas where theres problem packs and Esrd gets after the trapper to maybe try harder for wolves, they answer back well I caught 15 last yr, when they actually caught 0. I brought it up 3 yrs ago with biologists and officers that I work with that trappers wolf catches where problem packs are year after year, it should be mandatory check in of any wolf caught, cause some trappers "word" is not the honest truth. Rant over. And who really cares what sheepguide does for a living, like is that all you can find to try and bash him on, unbelievable.

Apparently you are not aware that royalties have to be paid on every pelt sold, and each pelt sold has to be recorded as to time date and trapper.

It is a very easy thing for F&W to verify or disprove the numbers the trapper claims.

It is interesting that you take the word of a rig worker over someone who actually gets out there and traps wolves.

[KegRiver]

Originally Posted by sheepguide

Deffinatly a possibility but in the mountain zones this would push to say that Grizzly numbers are then extremely high not at levels anywhere near as low as suggested. Blackbears have a a huge factor on moose poulations and elk in many areas for sure. But in many areas such as our main mountain zones and parks blk bear numbers I dont believe are near as significant as many of the study areas or in places such as Northern Alberta. Would be nice to see a study to show all predator numbers in areas hit hardest.

It might be wise to do a bit of research on the subject, I have.

Jasper Park found that Bears were a significant preditor of ungulates in that park. I haven't seen anything from Banff but it would be surprising if it were any different there.

[wolfkiller]

Ive probably killed more wolves by the time I was 16 than you have your whole life Keg. But im not here to bash you or the honest trappers out there, like I said in my post.

[jim summit]

Originally Posted by wolfkiller

Ive probably killed more wolves by the time I was 16 than you have your whole life Keg. But im not here to bash you or the honest trappers out there, like I said in my post.

Probably eh? New contestant in the ring.....

[wolfkiller]

jim- do you do predator control work for the government ? Let me guess - NO. I do, I have a little more knowledge in damage control than you do. Just a little buddy.

[sheepguide]

Originally Posted by KegRiver

It is interesting that you take the word of a rig worker over someone who actually gets out there and traps wolves.

Pardon me?????? You wanna bash my choice in career and say that because you trap a few wolves in a totally different area that you obviously know more than someone as low as a righand!! Shows your true colors so its no wonder your not a very popular moderator here!

The areas I bring up have a very very small black bear population due to grizzlys!! It takes a pretty dam tough black bear to survive there. The largest elk population drop in Alberta was at the ya ha tinda and you wont come across much of a black bear population in this or the surrounding areas. The odd one for sure and a number of grizz, some cats and some large packs of wolves that run the Red Deer river valley. So are you saying these large wolf packs eat nothing here and the few bears caused a 3000 head drop in elk numbers?

[jim summit]

Well that depends if i am a trapper that goes after wolves or not, guess this thread says i'm not. Registered i am, i'll be the judge, sounds like you know your stuff.

[nube]

Originally Posted by wolfkiller

jim- do you do predator control work for the government ? Let me guess - NO. I do, I have a little more knowledge in damage control than you do. Just a little buddy.

For curiousity sake Wolfkiller I would love to know the best way you have found to kill a bunch of them. Always can learn from a guy with experience.

The rest of this thread makes me laugh. Thanks for the laugh Darcy.

[sheepguide]

Originally Posted by nube

For curiousity sake Wolfkiller I would love to know the best way you have found to kill a bunch of them. Always can learn from a guy with experience.

The rest of this thread makes me laugh. Thanks for the laugh Darcy.

Any time Nube. Thanks for the contributions lol always nice to see the guys show up to criticize others comments but haven't added in any way to the thread!

[KegRiver]

Originally Posted by sheepguide

Pardon me?????? You wanna bash my choice in career and say that because you trap a few wolves in a totally different area that you obviously know more than someone as low as a righand!! Shows your true colors so its no wonder your not a very popular moderator here!

The areas I bring up have a very very small black bear population due to grizzlys!! It takes a pretty dam tough black bear to survive there. The largest elk population drop in Alberta was at the ya ha tinda and you wont come across much of a black bear population in this or the surrounding areas. The odd one for sure and a number of grizz, some cats and some large packs of wolves that run the Red Deer river valley. So are you saying these large wolf packs eat nothing here and the few bears caused a 3000 head drop in elk numbers?

Who is bashing?

You are rig worker. I worked oilfield for a time. No shame in that. At least none I know of.

I do question your knowledge of the wolf problem, again, that's not bashing, that's simply putting my trust in those who I know have some experience.

For all I know you may have as much or more experience then anyone else here, but thus far you have given no indication of that so I have to go with what you have revealed, that you are a rig worker.
That does not necessarily equate to experience with wolves.

Anyone can take a drive in the mountains and think they know all there is to know about the wildlife in that section of the province.

I've lived in this area most of my life, just shy of 60 years. I've been a trapper and hunter since I was old enough to walk.
I've spent thousands of hours hunting, trapping and photographing wildlife throughout this region and in other parts of this province.

And I know, I don't know enough to decide if Wolves are causing declining game numbers or not.

It may be that you are much smarter then I am, which would be interesting since I have an IQ of 128, but to be blunt, I doubt you know half as much as you would like us to believe you do.

[sheepguide]

You wanna suggest I dont know what im talking about. Then maybe back it!!!!!!!!

Here is the known mortality percentages on elk at the YaHa Tinda taken from one of the largest elk studies done on one of the largest population fluctuations in elk numbers!!!

And I quote,

"Wolf - 32%
Grizz - 15%
Cougar - 10%
Disease - 3 %
Hunter - 22%
Other - 13%
Poaching - 4%
Railway - 1%"


Here is a read for you. And here is a couple more quotes from it!!!!

"The winter population at the YHT peaked in 1992 and has since declined (Fig. 2.2). The decline has been attributed to a number of causes including translocations (1994 - 1999) and the recovery of the
wolf population (Hebblewhite 2006)."

" Combined, our studies of the elk population at Ya Ha Tinda
represent one of the longest elk population studies in a system with intact natural predators, including wolves (Canis lupus) and grizzly bears (Ursus arctos), and human hunting. "

"Predators within the study area include wolf (Canis lupus), grizzly bear (Ursus arctos), and cougar (Felis concolor) (Morgantini 1988). Wolves were considered abundant prior to European settlement at the turn of the twentieth century. Poisoning and shooting of wolves for livestock
protection and hunting bounties led to extirpation in the southern regions of Alberta, as well as in BNP by the 1950s (Gunson 1992, Musiani and Paquet 2004). Re-colonization of wolves in BNP first occurred in 1985. Cougars have also been persecuted historically but are now increasing in
the region (Stelfox 1993, Knopff 2010). Another major predator of elk is the grizzly bear, whose predation is primarily limited to springtime."

"Additional monitoring of wolf packs in this area is
planned by Parks Canada."


Seems to be alot of , mention of wolves there doenst it!!!

Another big one is encroachment but thats a whole other thread.

Here is the link all above quoted numbers and context was taken from,

http://yahatinda.biology.ualberta.ca...tudy-20111.pdf


So what was that about IQ and rig workers Keg????????

[sheepguide]

Originally Posted by 6.5swedeforelk

Hmm, you know about that.

An old trade secret from stories told in NE BC when I started up there by the old time outfitters!!

[sourdough doug]

Who is baiting who, here ???
Trappers, let this fart dissipate with the wind and move on.

[lannie]

Originally Posted by sheepguide

You wanna suggest I dont know what im talking about. Then maybe back it!!!!!!!!

Here is the known mortality percentages on elk at the YaHa Tinda taken from one of the largest elk studies done on one of the largest population fluctuations in elk numbers!!!

And I quote,

"Wolf - 32%
Grizz - 15%
Cougar - 10%
Disease - 3 %
Hunter - 22%
Other - 13%
Poaching - 4%
Railway - 1%"


Here is a read for you. And here is a couple more quotes from it!!!!

"The winter population at the YHT peaked in 1992 and has since declined (Fig. 2.2). The decline has been attributed to a number of causes including translocations (1994 - 1999) and the recovery of the
wolf population (Hebblewhite 2006)."

" Combined, our studies of the elk population at Ya Ha Tinda
represent one of the longest elk population studies in a system with intact natural predators, including wolves (Canis lupus) and grizzly bears (Ursus arctos), and human hunting. "

"Predators within the study area include wolf (Canis lupus), grizzly bear (Ursus arctos), and cougar (Felis concolor) (Morgantini 1988). Wolves were considered abundant prior to European settlement at the turn of the twentieth century. Poisoning and shooting of wolves for livestock
protection and hunting bounties led to extirpation in the southern regions of Alberta, as well as in BNP by the 1950s (Gunson 1992, Musiani and Paquet 2004). Re-colonization of wolves in BNP first occurred in 1985. Cougars have also been persecuted historically but are now increasing in
the region (Stelfox 1993, Knopff 2010). Another major predator of elk is the grizzly bear, whose predation is primarily limited to springtime."

"Additional monitoring of wolf packs in this area is
planned by Parks Canada."


Seems to be alot of , mention of wolves there doenst it!!!

Another big one is encroachment but thats a whole other thread.

Here is the link all above quoted numbers and context was taken from,

http://yahatinda.biology.ualberta.ca...tudy-20111.pdf


So what was that about IQ and rig workers Keg????????

Maybe I am missing something but there is a large disparity between the findings you posted above and the others earlier on. Yours show zero mortality by black bear?

[sheepguide]

Originally Posted by lannie

Maybe I am missing something but there is a large disparity between the findings you posted above and the others earlier on. Yours show zero mortality by black bear?

Seems to me that I stated black bears have little presence in most Grizz habitat!! Seems studies on these elk reflect that as well!!!

[lannie]

I'm in the Crowsnest Pass and it is Grizzly habitat. I am very sure there are many more black bears than grizzly here. For that ELk study to not find a single mortality from black bears is just surprising...that's all.

[KegRiver]

Originally Posted by lannie

I'm in the Crowsnest Pass and it is Grizzly habitat. I am very sure there are many more black bears than grizzly here. For that ELk study to not find a single mortality from black bears is just surprising...that's all.

I was wondering about that too. There are Grizzly here, not a whole lot but then from what I hear there aren't a whole lot anywhere.

Nevertheless, there are Grizzly here and we have more Black Bears then most would like.

Another interesting thing. I am at present reading a paper concerning a study done at the YaHa Tinda and it seems that that study only looked at adult Elk mortality.

I have not seen anything to indicate that a Black Bear could take a Adult Elk although I suppose that under some circumstances it may be possible.

I also looked a Grizzly and Black bear populations in Jasper and Banff parks.
As near as I could find, there are very high Black Bear populations in both parks and some of the highest Grizzly populations in North America.

I need to do more research to see if this is indeed true.

[KegRiver]

Interesting stuff in this document I'm reading.

Like this statement.

Reviews of the wolf-bear-moose literature support the interpretation that bear and wolf predation will regulate elk to a low-density equilibrium

I have to admit, I was not able to find the figures SG posted. That research does not appear on any of the searches I have done.

I will continue to search when I have more time.

[lannie]

Originally Posted by KegRiver

Interesting stuff in this document I'm reading.

Like this statement.



I have to admit, I was not able to find the figures SG posted. That research does not appear on any of the searches I have done.

I will continue to search when I have more time.
[/FONT]

It would be very interesting to see additional information for that area!

[Alberta Bigbore]

Originally Posted by KegRiver

It is interesting that you take the word of a rig worker over someone who actually gets out there and traps wolves.

apparently this comment has a few panties in a twist.. i do not see him bashing your choice of career Sheepguide. I see him simply saying that he is suggesting you are taking the word from other than someone who actually makes a living from trapping. Now.. im sure there are many trappers that do not do it to make a living and such.

But geez Sheepguide. you sit here daily belittling others and P.O.'ing off members left right and center.

Seems you are the one who is over sensative this time.... and I would really watch your tone and choice of words.. as YOU... are not a fan favorite here on AO. And why we voted you back in this forum is beyond me. Just remember that... YOU are not..the.. favorite

[sheepguide]

Originally Posted by Alberta Bigbore

apparently this comment has a few panties in a twist.. i do not see him bashing your choice of career Sheepguide. I see him simply saying that he is suggesting you are taking the word from other than someone who actually makes a living from trapping. Now.. im sure there are many trappers that do not do it to make a living and such.

But geez Sheepguide. you sit here daily belittling others and P.O.'ing off members left right and center.

Seems you are the one who is over sensative this time.... and I would really watch your tone and choice of words.. as YOU... are not a fan favorite here on AO. And why we voted you back in this forum is beyond me. Just remember that... YOU are not..the.. favorite

Says alot right there on what AO has turned into.

[sheepguide]

Originally Posted by KegRiver

I
I have to admit, I was not able to find the figures SG posted. That research does not appear on any of the searches I have done.
[/FONT]

You couldnt find Fig 8.3 on page 69 of the study I posted??? I guess the two colour pie graphs showing the Adult cow elk(highest number of elk in herds) are to hidden amongst the writings.

And im sure if there was a significant amount of Black Bear mortality on calves of the year a study as extensive as this over as many years as this was would have at least touched on it as it would show a substantial amount of reasoning to herd declines but im sure they just didnt think it was very important and not worthy on a Elk population study!