Education update, Masks now required in all schools

[Smoky buck]

Originally Posted by Scott h

Don't teachers deserve the protection that something as simple as a mask can provide?

Personally I believe they are entitled to protection if they are concerned but there are many options that could be taken for personal protection. I do not believe that putting kids in masks will be an effective way to stop spread and I highly doubt we will see kids using masks correctly when most adults fail at this.

If a teacher is truly concerned they should focus on personal protection and not rely on kids limiting the spread.

[Scott h]

Originally Posted by Bergerboy

Now you are using logic and facts against Scotts emotional based arguments. He is a unique snowflake, be kind.

Don't worry, I'm not that delicate.

[Bergerboy]

Originally Posted by Scott h

I'm not the one allowing kids to go back to school and it's known there will be some get sick. Masks are kinda like the argument about wearing a helmet on a motorcycle. It's not that hard to do.

So 2 weeks after the mandatory mask implementation with almost 98% compliance, there has been a spike in covid cases according to DR. Deena Hinshaw. Very different than helmets on a motorcycle as the number of head injuries have dropped when that was implemented. Apples and oranges.

[Smoky buck]

Originally Posted by Scott h

The odds of dying are not the same thing as the odds of getting very, very sick.

Many are not getting sick enough to need hospitalization and many are not seeing severe symptoms. Out of the 16 people I know in North America that have had it ranged from minor sniffles to a bad chest cold style symptoms. Most would not have even been tested for Covid19 if they did not know they were in contact with someone who had tested positive

Odds are more people have had Covid19 then we realize and random testing is finding this already

Yup it can be brutal for some but not for most

[Pathfinder76]

Originally Posted by Scott h

I'm not the one allowing kids to go back to school and it's known there will be some get sick. Masks are kinda like the argument about wearing a helmet on a motorcycle. It's not that hard to do.

Laughing!

[raab]

Originally Posted by Scott h

I'm not the one allowing kids to go back to school and it's known there will be some get sick. Masks are kinda like the argument about wearing a helmet on a motorcycle. It's not that hard to do.

Except the data suggested that helmets were beneficial. The data doesn't suggest that kids under 10 are a risk to transmit, and its debatable between 10-15.

If were going to use a comparison I'd use a horse. For me if I don't feel confident that my horse won't buck, and feel I need a helmet to protect me. Then I don't ride the horse.

The school and masks are the same thing. If were not confident this won't spread between the kids, and we need masks to prevent it. Then we shouldn't be sending them back in the first place!

[Scott h]

Quote;
"The school and masks are the same thing. If were not confident this won't spread between the kids, and we need masks to prevent it. Then we shouldn't be sending them back in the first place!"

If there was a low amount in the community then there would be a low chance of children getting infected. Albertas numbers however are trending in the wrong direction so of course there will be children getting infected. I get the feeling that you, like Chuck won't be sending your children back even if wearing a mask would add a level of security....

[CBintheNorth]

Originally Posted by Scott h

"The school and masks are the same thing. If were not confident this won't spread between the kids, and we need masks to prevent it. Then we shouldn't be sending them back in the first place!"

If there was a low amount in the community then there would be a low chance of children getting infected. Albertas numbers however are trending in the wrong direction so of course there will be children getting infected. I get the feeling that you, like Chuck won't be sending your children back even if wearing a mask would add a level of security....

That would be his rite.

And it won't add any security, that's what you're not understanding because you don't have kids to monitor.
My 7 year old lasted 15 minutes and lost his marbles.
My 8 year old was actually excited to wear a mask. He said it made him feel like a superhero. Lol
I told him he had to keep it on for 2 hours without touching it.
He lasted 5 minutes before moving it. By 30 minutes he was lowering it until told to put it back on, and everytime he would take it down he would wipe his face and eyes from the condensation buildup on his skin.
Needless to say he didn't last the 2 hours.
In the hour and 15 minutes that he kept it on, he took it off or adjusted it and wiped his face over 30 times. I stopped counting.
Most adults that I observe aren't much better.
Being a medical professional you have to agree that everything he did for an hour and 15 minutes will HIGHLY increase his chances of contracting the virus in a classroom setting.
So no, they don't add a level of security for children, they give you and a few others of false sense of security.

[Sundancefisher]

Originally Posted by Bergerboy

So 2 weeks after the mandatory mask implementation with almost 98% compliance, there has been a spike in covid cases according to DR. Deena Hinshaw. Very different than helmets on a motorcycle as the number of head injuries have dropped when that was implemented. Apples and oranges.

You miss important factors

1. There is a delay of about two weeks you are correct...but that is between strangers

2. Most new infections are coming from family and friend gatherings. They are not using masks. There will be a longer delay as a result of that demographic still not wearing masks

3. Family and friend infections will need to burn out or attitudes and behaviours will need to change at home and not just at businesses followed by an additional 2 weeks. Doubt that will happen.

4. Businesses are not 100% compliance and there is minimal to zero enforcement.

5. Some businesses still are not following rules. Some public venues still being used improperly

[Sundancefisher]

Originally Posted by CBintheNorth

That would be his rite.

And it won't add any security, that's what you're not understanding because you don't have kids to monitor.
My 7 year old lasted 15 minutes and lost his marbles.
My 8 year old was actually excited to wear a mask. He said it made him feel like a superhero. Lol
I told him he had to keep it on for 2 hours without touching it.
He lasted 5 minutes before moving it. By 30 minutes he was lowering it until told to put it back on, and everytime he would take it down he would wipe his face and eyes from the condensation buildup on his skin.
Needless to say he didn't last the 2 hours.
In the hour and 15 minutes that he kept it on, he took it off or adjusted it and wiped his face over 30 times. I stopped counting.
Most adults that I observe aren't much better.
Being a medical professional you have to agree that everything he did for an hour and 15 minutes will HIGHLY increase his chances of contracting the virus in a classroom setting.
So no, they don't add a level of security for children, they give you and a few others of false sense of security.

Masks are better than no masks.

People touch their faces constantly whether wearing or not wearing a mask.

At least with a mask droplet spray is reduced and therefore infection spread is reduced

Wearing a mask will become second nature and people will wear it better as time goes on just like in South Korea and Japan.

[Bergerboy]

Originally Posted by Sundancefisher

You miss important factors

1. There is a delay of about two weeks you are correct...but that is between strangers

2. Most new infections are coming from family and friend gatherings. They are not using masks. There will be a longer delay as a result of that demographic still not wearing masks

3. Family and friend infections will need to burn out or attitudes and behaviours will need to change at home and not just at businesses followed by an additional 2 weeks. Doubt that will happen.

4. Businesses are not 100% compliance and there is minimal to zero enforcement.

5. Some businesses still are not following rules. Some public venues still being used improperly

Whoa buddy...
After reading what you wrote last night I have a feeling your gonna feel pretty rough today.

[Pathfinder76]

Originally Posted by Scott h

Quote;
"The school and masks are the same thing. If were not confident this won't spread between the kids, and we need masks to prevent it. Then we shouldn't be sending them back in the first place!"

If there was a low amount in the community then there would be a low chance of children getting infected. Albertas numbers however are trending in the wrong direction so of course there will be children getting infected. I get the feeling that you, like Chuck won't be sending your children back even if wearing a mask would add a level of security....

What are you doing with your kids Scott?

[Pathfinder76]

Originally Posted by Sundancefisher

Masks are better than no masks.

People touch their faces constantly whether wearing or not wearing a mask.

At least with a mask droplet spray is reduced and therefore infection spread is reduced

Wearing a mask will become second nature and people will wear it better as time goes on just like in South Korea and Japan.

We aren’t like Korea or Japan in any way

[Glion]

Originally Posted by Sundancefisher

Masks are better than no masks.

People touch their faces constantly whether wearing or not wearing a mask.

At least with a mask droplet spray is reduced and therefore infection spread is reduced

Wearing a mask will become second nature and people will wear it better as time goes on just like in South Korea and Japan.

I disagree with the 1st statement. Even WHO and our top doctors disagreed until 3ish months ago. In fact they even said they were more harmful. This was based on approx 30 years of studies that showed masks were not beneficial in dealing with viruses. But in the last 3ish months all those years of study and practice have gotten thrown out the window and everyone has done an entire 180. And this based not on science either. There is the most recent study which had a massive peer review which said that masks are beneficial but that study has been shown to be a farce even though it was published in prominent magazines. It was shown that the study didn't take proper due diligence or a large enough sample group. As well as the fact that those that peer reviewed it did so in record time.
People often point to asian countries as a fact that mask wearing is done but that is ignoring the fact that it isn't done for a virus.
Also for covid to live in droplets the single study most places are quoting used a droplet approx 1inch by 1inch in a petry dish, not exactly your typical droplet size.
Will be interesting if they ever come to a conclusion if/how bad covid can spread through vaporization.
Final note on masks is that countries or states that put in mandatory mask laws have seen no difference in curves with those that didn't. Ie the Philippines has extremely high mask compliance and is seeing massive spikes same goes with Germany.
Even the USA has higher mask compliance than Canada yet we like to rail on them.
California introduced mask laws and it did zero for their cases.
Reality is we have all turned into quasi scientists lol and we can all find numbers to back up whatever point we want.
At the end of the day the govt has done massive 180s on so many policies with no discussions and based on whims.
If you are young or have less than 2 preexisting conditions your chance of survival with no affects is ludicrously high, like astronomical.
The numbers everywhere around this globe point to this and we really can't deny that part.
Anyway my oldest heads to school in sept, we seriously looked into homeschooling as he did very well this spring with it, but due to the fact we just had another baby 2 weeks ago we chose to send him. If he was required to wear a mask we would maybe change our minds.

[raab]

Originally Posted by Glion

I disagree with the 1st statement. Even WHO and our top doctors disagreed until 3ish months ago. In fact they even said they were more harmful. This was based on approx 30 years of studies that showed masks were not beneficial in dealing with viruses. But in the last 3ish months all those years of study and practice have gotten thrown out the window and everyone has done an entire 180. And this based not on science either. There is the most recent study which had a massive peer review which said that masks are beneficial but that study has been shown to be a farce even though it was published in prominent magazines. It was shown that the study didn't take proper due diligence or a large enough sample group. As well as the fact that those that peer reviewed it did so in record time.
People often point to asian countries as a fact that mask wearing is done but that is ignoring the fact that it isn't done for a virus.
Also for covid to live in droplets the single study most places are quoting used a droplet approx 1inch by 1inch in a petry dish, not exactly your typical droplet size.
Will be interesting if they ever come to a conclusion if/how bad covid can spread through vaporization.
Final note on masks is that countries or states that put in mandatory mask laws have seen no difference in curves with those that didn't. Ie the Philippines has extremely high mask compliance and is seeing massive spikes same goes with Germany.
Even the USA has higher mask compliance than Canada yet we like to rail on them.
California introduced mask laws and it did zero for their cases.
Reality is we have all turned into quasi scientists lol and we can all find numbers to back up whatever point we want.
At the end of the day the govt has done massive 180s on so many policies with no discussions and based on whims.
If you are young or have less than 2 preexisting conditions your chance of survival with no affects is ludicrously high, like astronomical.
The numbers everywhere around this globe point to this and we really can't deny that part.
Anyway my oldest heads to school in sept, we seriously looked into homeschooling as he did very well this spring with it, but due to the fact we just had another baby 2 weeks ago we chose to send him. If he was required to wear a mask we would maybe change our minds.

Don't let facts get I the way of a good argument...

[sk270]

Originally Posted by Glion

There is the most recent study which had a massive peer review which said that masks are beneficial but that study has been shown to be a farce even though it was published in prominent magazines. It was shown that the study didn't take proper due diligence or a large enough sample group.

I'd appreciate the citations for the original study and the refutations. Like to read these things for myself.

Thanks for the help. Things are so confused that I welcome anything to provide a bit more clarity.

[270person]

Originally Posted by raab

The data doesn't suggest that kids under 10 are a risk to transmit, and its debatable between 10-15.

Not according to the CDC latest. Its folly to think kids can't contract and spread this virus. Unless one thinks its so much different than other viruses out there.

https://www.ctvnews.ca/mobile/health...sing-1.5065759

Granddaughter won't be going back. Lined up a personal tutor for her that will do daily zoom sessions. Takes some of the worry away for grandpa.

Daughter made a good point last night because she's been debating the "to send or not to send issue. One kid or teacher in a classroom contracts the virus, good chance a bunch of people go into mandated isolation. If a kid goes into isolation or God forbid, contracts it, now the parents are in isolation too making it buh bye work for at least 2 weeks. Not worth the potential loss of coin. I'm backing her and paying for the tutor.

[Glion]

Originally Posted by sk270

I'd appreciate the citations for the original study and the refutations. Like to read these things for myself.

Thanks for the help. Things are so confused that I welcome anything to provide a bit more clarity.

To be honest I am a little busy to grab it all the references, sorry. However when I was researching it I used brave webbrowser and the duckduckgo search engine and it produced very different results than google did. Best of luck

[sk270]

I am confused now. An earlier poster wrote "the most recent study which had a massive peer review which said that masks are beneficial but that study has been shown to be a farce even though it was published in prominent magazines."

I found:
https://www.thelancet.com/journals/l...142-9/fulltext

https://doi.org/10.1016/J.IJNURSTU.2020.103629

10.1377/hlthaff.2020.00818HEALTH AFFAIRS 39,NO. 8 (2020): 1419–1425

10.1136/bmjgh-2020-002794

https://www.cdc.gov/mmwr/volumes/69/wr/mm6923e4.htm

All of these support mask wearing. I did not see any refutations of these studies.

I did find that a study published in Proceedings of the National Academy of Sciences was widely criticized. However, the authors of an open letter critical of the study also wrote "masks are almost certainly an effective public health measure for preventing and slowing the spread of SARS-CoV-2."

The citations above all seem to date as far back as June. The poster referred to the most recent study, which I cannot find. The PNAS study was also published in June so that is, presumably, not the latest one to which he referred.

Thanks for any help you can give me in finding research pro and con mask wearing.

[beansgunsghandi]

Originally Posted by sk270

I am confused now. An earlier poster wrote "the most recent study which had a massive peer review which said that masks are beneficial but that study has been shown to be a farce even though it was published in prominent magazines."

I found:
https://www.thelancet.com/journals/l...142-9/fulltext

https://doi.org/10.1016/J.IJNURSTU.2020.103629

10.1377/hlthaff.2020.00818HEALTH AFFAIRS 39,NO. 8 (2020): 1419–1425

10.1136/bmjgh-2020-002794

https://www.cdc.gov/mmwr/volumes/69/wr/mm6923e4.htm

All of these support mask wearing. I did not see any refutations of these studies.

Thanks for any help you can give me in finding research pro and con mask wearing.

I'd like to see the same info. I've been doing a ton of reading, looks like they do help.

[OL_JR]

Have two kids going back this fall and not sure if I'm sold the masks are going to have a big impact on slowing the spread but if there's a chance it can help I'm ok with it.

In reality I'd be ok with keeping the kids back a little longer, and I say that not so much in fear of the virus as a fear of the cure. With the length of time people have to spend in quarantine I think this fall is going to be pretty interesting for many workplaces around Alberta. The day the kids step foot in school is the start of flu season. I know it wouldn't take much for the facility I work at to not have enough qualified people left to run it.

Before covid you get sick, you go home and when you feel better you come back. Don't know if I've known anyone that's had to sit out for 2 weeks because of a cold or flu in my career. Now it's mandatory whether it's covid or not.

[fishnguy]

Originally Posted by beansgunsghandi

I'd like to see the same info. I've been doing a ton of reading, looks like they do help.

Likely doesn’t exist. Or some rubbish.

Ever noticed how masks have been available in the hospitals at every entrance and those with cold/flu symptoms were and are encouraged to put one on for years now? The reason would be to protect other people around. If masks didn’t help, that wouldn’t be the case, would it? Common sense suggests that research has shown that they help long time ago (and if one cares to look, one will find that this is the case). Touching face and eyes, on the other hand, while may potentially be harmful, involves minimal risk of getting infected compared to inhalation (if one cares to look, they will find this too).

What psychological damage caused by mask wearing are people talking about? I have to be missing something.

Having said that, I am glad there has been no requirement to wear a mask for elementary school students here in town (for now) and my daughter will be heading to grade one in September. The three year old will be going to preschool as well. If we lived in Edmonton or Calgary, things may have been different and we may have given it more thought. If that was the case, the three old would probably stay home and my other daughter would be wearing a mask and we would be watching how things go from there. If outbreaks increase and cases skyrocket, there would be no point for her attending the school either.

[270person]

Originally Posted by fishnguy

Likely doesn’t exist. Or some rubbish.

Ever noticed how masks have been available in the hospitals at every entrance and those with cold/flu symptoms were and are encouraged to put one on for years now? The reason would be to protect other people around. If masks didn’t help, that wouldn’t be the case, would it? Common sense suggests that research has shown that they help long time ago (and if one cares to look, one will find that this is the case). Touching face and eyes, on the other hand, while may potentially be harmful, involves minimal risk of getting infected compared to inhalation (if one cares to look, they will find this too).

What psychological damage caused by mask wearing are people talking about? I have to be missing something.

Having said that, I am glad there has been no requirement to wear a mask for elementary school students here in town (for now) and my daughter will be heading to grade one in September. The three year old will be going to preschool as well. If we lived in Edmonton or Calgary, things may have been different and we may have given it more thought. If that was the case, the three old would probably stay home and my other daughter would be wearing a mask and we would be watching how things go from there. If outbreaks increase and cases skyrocket, there would be no point for her attending the school either.

In Edmonton up to grade 3 not required to wear a mask. Grades 3+ are. No idea what the reasoning is for the cut off line.

[CBintheNorth]

Originally Posted by Sundancefisher

Masks are better than no masks.

People touch their faces constantly whether wearing or not wearing a mask.

At least with a mask droplet spray is reduced and therefore infection spread is reduced

Wearing a mask will become second nature and people will wear it better as time goes on just like in South Korea and Japan.

We're talking about little kids here, not adults.
Wearing a mask for 8 hrs will never be second nature to them.

[CBintheNorth]

Originally Posted by 270person

In Edmonton up to grade 3 not required to wear a mask. Grades 3+ are. No idea what the reasoning is for the cut off line.

They know there's exactly 0% chance of them doing it properly, and having one on their face will most likely lead to higher transmission rates. IF they can be transmitters.

But hold tight, Calgary just changed their minds and are mandating all grades wear a mask.
It's only a matter of hours (Monday by noon is my guess) before Edmonton follows suit.

[Pathfinder76]

Originally Posted by 270person

No idea what the reasoning is for the cut off line.

Are you serious?

[hogie]

Originally Posted by 270person

Not according to the CDC latest. Its folly to think kids can't contract and spread this virus. Unless one thinks its so much different than other viruses out there.

https://www.ctvnews.ca/mobile/health...sing-1.5065759

Granddaughter won't be going back. Lined up a personal tutor for her that will do daily zoom sessions. Takes some of the worry away for grandpa.

Daughter made a good point last night because she's been debating the "to send or not to send issue. One kid or teacher in a classroom contracts the virus, good chance a bunch of people go into mandated isolation. If a kid goes into isolation or God forbid, contracts it, now the parents are in isolation too making it buh bye work for at least 2 weeks. Not worth the potential loss of coin. I'm backing her and paying for the tutor.

So unless both your granddaughters parents work from home they could contract the virus and still be in lockdown.

Better not ever leave the house. Hopefully you keep distance as well. You could carry and not know it. Good thing for internet and facetime. Maybe a vaccine will be approved in a few years

The government released projections in early April. They expected up to 800000 infected by the end of May. Up to around 4000 dead. This with all the neccessary measures in place. No measures in place would be double that. They figured the medical system could handle the best case scenario. The whole point of lockdown and restrictions was to not overload the system. Seems like goalposts have been moved.

We need to be realistic with this, we didn't overload the system. I don't think we even came close to using 10% capacity. Our numbers are extremely good compared to early predictions. This isn't going away but can be handled. This isn't a death sentence for the vast majority of us.

I have two girls 8 and almost 10. They need to be in school. We as two working parents can't teach them. Things can be adjusted as needed if something happens.

I am not a fan of masks. I really don't believe that they do much when not used properly. Kids, adults are always adjusting masks then touching something. The origanal explanation of why masks if not used properly made sense. People think a mask gives protection but really doesn't unless they do the proper technique and mask. Before pushing mask use people kept distance, once a mask is on they don't. False security. Kinda like trusting safety on a firearm. Still loaded and dangerous.

Many of were deemed essential workers. Had to deal with this in the early stages. Scary to begin with , as it went on soon realized that be careful and wash your hands it's all good. Use some sense, be diligent with your hygiene.

[CBintheNorth]

Originally Posted by hogie

So unless both your granddaughters parents work from home they could contract the virus and still be in lockdown.

Better not ever leave the house. Hopefully you keep distance as well. You could carry and not know it. Good thing for internet and facetime. Maybe a vaccine will be approved in a few years

The government released projections in early April. They expected up to 800000 infected by the end of May. Up to around 4000 dead. This with all the neccessary measures in place. No measures in place would be double that. They figured the medical system could handle the best case scenario. The whole point of lockdown and restrictions was to not overload the system. Seems like goalposts have been moved.

We need to be realistic with this, we didn't overload the system. I don't think we even came close to using 10% capacity. Our numbers are extremely good compared to early predictions. This isn't going away but can be handled. This isn't a death sentence for the vast majority of us.

I have two girls 8 and almost 10. They need to be in school. We as two working parents can't teach them. Things can be adjusted as needed if something happens.

I am not a fan of masks. I really don't believe that they do much when not used properly. Kids, adults are always adjusting masks then touching something. The origanal explanation of why masks if not used properly made sense. People think a mask gives protection but really doesn't unless they do the proper technique and mask. Before pushing mask use people kept distance, once a mask is on they don't. False security. Kinda like trusting safety on a firearm. Still loaded and dangerous.

Many of were deemed essential workers. Had to deal with this in the early stages. Scary to begin with , as it went on soon realized that be careful and wash your hands it's all good. Use some sense, be diligent with your hygiene.

Reminds me of a Go-fund-me page where the goal keeps changing.
Actually, that's probably exactly what it is, just with a different name.

[270person]

Originally Posted by chuck

Are you serious?

Uh, yes. Explain to me how a grade 3 is so much more responsible than a grade 4 please.

Or perhaps you're saying kids in kindergarten to grade 3 can't contract or spread the virus.

[270person]

Originally Posted by CBintheNorth

They know there's exactly 0% chance of them doing it properly, and having one on their face will most likely lead to higher transmission rates. IF they can be transmitters.

But hold tight, Calgary just changed their minds and are mandating all grades wear a mask.
It's only a matter of hours (Monday by noon is my guess) before Edmonton follows suit.

Kind of amazing to me how these grade 3 kids from last year transform themselves into responsible mask wearers, hand washers, etc in a few months. Maybe they should be able to get their drivers license and vote too.

I'd have some awesome benefits if my granddaughter could get her hunting permits as well.