Non-magnums

[220swifty]

The original post was a trolling attempt, so hiu-jacking is appropriate here.

For the record, I have a 30-30, and a 300 RUM, but my only 30 cal that has killed for me is my 308. It means nothing. Some days I am happy burning 37 grs of powder per pop, and others it has to be 106 grs to make me smile.

[weedcatcher]

Originally Posted by Traps

The 6.5x55, 7mm-08, 280, 30-06, 338 Federal are great calibers. Slower than faster cartridges in the same calibers means penetration is beyond their bigger brothers. Penetration IMO is the best way to decide how lethal a cartridge is. You hear guys say that the bullet exploded on impact and the animal got away, but you rarely hear of a pass through getting away on a decent shot. So if the best penetration occurs at the speed at which the bullet becomes plastic and deforms, which can be 1800 fps then this begs the question, if these same cartridges launch a bullet at 2800 fps with a decent BC out to 400 yards why do you need a magnum. Shooting anything with larger powder capacity seems excessive at the expense of recoil, cost, muzzle blast, sound and cost. It must make up for a lack of something, so what is it that you magnum guys lack? Is it brains, braun, or the third leg.

The incoherent sentence in bold, if I understand the meaning correctly, means that a bullet fired from a 30-40 Krag will penetrate deeper in ballistic gellatin than a 30-06 will with an identical bullet, simply because the 30-40 krag's bullet will be going slower. Hmmmm.
Unlikely.

[Tracker34]

Originally Posted by weedcatcher

The incoherent sentence in bold, if I understand the meaning correctly, means that a bullet fired from a 30-40 Krag will penetrate deeper in ballistic gellatin than a 30-06 will with an identical bullet, simply because the 30-40 krag's bullet will be going slower. Hmmmm.
Unlikely.

I just threw bullets by hand this year. All resulted in exit wounds because they were going so slow. lol

[Traps]

Originally Posted by weedcatcher

The incoherent sentence in bold, if I understand the meaning correctly, means that a bullet fired from a 30-40 Krag will penetrate deeper in ballistic gellatin than a 30-06 will with an identical bullet, simply because the 30-40 krag's bullet will be going slower. Hmmmm.
Unlikely.

It is and I'll explain why. The comparison - the 30-40 Krag launches a 150 grain bullet at 2300 fps while the 30-06 will launch the same bullet at 2950 fps. A high velocity bullet expands a lot and a low velocity bullet expands a little. The resistance of the bullet for both is encountered in drag and more importantly resistance encountered at the nose of the bullet. Faster bullets result in larger diameters as a result of deformation. The area of a cylinder is diameter squared so any increase in diameter causes an exponentially larger frontal area and a larger difference in drag. This causes an exponentially larger resistance at the nose. This all has to be taken with a grain of salt of course because maximum penetration is at a point where the bullet stops deforming which turns out to be the usable range. Lets say this particular 308 bullet stops deforming at 1800 fps, this means that the most penetration will occur at 1800 fps. This would occur roughly at 250 yards with the 30-40 Krag and 550 yards with the 30-06. Since most game and most hunters need only to shoot to 300 yards this begs the question, why were the hunters of yesterday able to hunt with these seemingly archaic cartridges and do so effectively. Prime example is the 30-30, most people would say a maximum of 150 yards. Guess what the velocity is for the 30-30 at 150 yards is......its ~1800 fps and this does quite well. Compare this to the 300 RUM that can launch it at 3400 fps that results in shrapnell for many non premium bullets?????? For the most part hunters haven't changed its the cartridges that have and marketing has led many of us to believe that faster is better, but really for the vast majority of us its a marketing ploy for the boy that needs something faster, bigger and "better". The 300 WSM, 300 RSAUM, 300 H+H, 300 Win Mag light loads among other comparisons are all essentially remakes of one another in terms of end result but at an extra cost all the way around.

[Traps]

Originally Posted by Private Ear

Please expound.

Are you saying that the 25-06 is not in the same category as the ones that you originally posted?

I have been seriously looking into a 25-06 for the past year or two and would appreciate any and all viewpoints.

The reasons why I would turf the 25-06

1) its velocity range is +3000 fps for most bullet weights. This can mean poor penetration with conventional bullets and to minimize this you can't really step up in weight to bring that velocity down to around 2800 fps or lower.

2) shooting at high velocities would limit me to only loading expensive premium bullets which would improve performance but at a cost.

3) the number of choices for bullets available to you is limited

4) the ballistic coefficients aren't typically that great in this caliber. The bullets available in the 277, 284, 308 are more, and many have high ballistic coefficients. If its recoil that you don't want to put up with then the 270 or 7mm-08 would have my vote. If its trajectory, they all drop and wind drift but within sane shooting distances there isn't a whole lot of difference between the 270, 7mm-08, and the 25-06. If you handload the 7mm-08 would be at the top of my list, if not then the 270.

[Traps]

Originally Posted by gergarin

Penetration has more to do with bullet design and density and the thickness of the skin & bulk of the animal. Speed has more to do with hypervelemic shock(the column of pressure following the bullet.)

If the base of the bullet holds together well and the forward portion expands evenly in a controlled way you have better penetration. In general the heavier the bullet combined with the above the better the penetration. The impact density ,the skin of the animal, starts the expansion process. Thin skined animals like whitetail deer generally require less energy to penetrate than say a thick skinned animal like a moose.

Hypervalemic shock increases the tissue damage. The faster the bullet the greater the column of shock following penetration and usually the greater the tissue damage.

Just my pennies worth

Yes the tissue damage is massive with high velocity bullets, but for many conventional bullets driven at ultra velocities can result in shrapnell on impact. Place that on a shoulder, what would you rather have, massive damage on one shoulder or a complete penetration taking out both shoulders and the vitals in between.

[Traps]

Originally Posted by Lonnie

I agree with Traps but that may have more to do with age and expirance I've owned mags and non mags. 250 sav. 270win. are the ones I liked the most both killed a lot of game so now I looking to find some thing right between the 2 and I hope it is 6.5x55 as I"m going to build alight sporter in that. also I have noticed that for every big guy that carrys a magnum there is 10 smaller guys carrying mags.older likes less recoil.

Great choice in a classic cartridge. What do they say about the 6.5x55, a cartridge that kills beyond its so called ability.

The velocity envelope with the bullets available is 2100-3200 with the most common bullets at 120 and 130 shoot right around 2600-2700 fps, sounds like a winning combination.

[1100winger]

or - to rephrase; belted or nonbelted??? it,s not that we magnum guys are lacking anything - i just appreciate a rifle/cartridge/scope combo that works and puts down game perfectly. but I have both belted and non belted magnums - so where is the line in the sand? on the other hand - my 6.5 swede goes out on a lot of walks too - and given the right distance/animal presentation is good for elk/moose out to 300 yards; which btw - is about the limit of my ageing eyesight. lighter recoil is a plus too - but this discussion is always a great way to stir the pot. if you phoned this morning for a quick hunt - i would be hard pressed to decide; the 6.5 or the 300. but for completely different reasons. both work extremely well.

[Traps]

I would say at any sane distance of 300 yards or less the perfect velocity window without having to think to much about bullet construction would be 2600-2800 fps.

[Traps]

Originally Posted by leo

I'm sure I'll regret this but here goes! Do you mean to say thay a 25-06 with a premium bullet weighing more than 100gr's will offer inadequte penetration? IMO penetration is dictated by 2 primary occurances . Velocity and construction of the projectile. everything else is secondary. Use a cheap bullet and push it to 3000fps from the muzzle and it is a crap shoot as to how well it will penetrate. The premium slug changes the equation to greater penetration . A 25-06 with a 100gr TSX will likely penetrate the equivalent of a 300 mag with a power point. But that doesn't mean that a 300mag isn't a usefull cartridge(which is why I have 3 at present and have retired 3).

I am not saying that it will offer inadequate penetration, it will have great penetration but it does force you to use premium bullets to achieve the same performance as using something with less poop or more weight to bring down velocity. Everything that you write about I agree with, I just think there are better options out there than the 25-06, its the inbetween cartridge for me, but it may be the it cartridge for others.

[Arn?Narn.]

I am convinced Traps, that you read a bit, inject counter intuitive and illogical conclusions and then post.

I enjoyed reading your take on bullets, Velocity,..what happens to bullets on impact and penetration, if for nothing else, the entertainment value...

[Arn?Narn.]

Originally Posted by Traps

I would say at any sane distance of 300 yards or less .

...this mere sentence tells the entire story of your posts and motivation in threads like these...

I guess a 357 yrd shot is just insane

[Traps]

Momentum by definition is the measure of motion and is mass x velocity. Take a bullet, say for example the 338 160 grain TTSX bullet that I recovered this year. Expanded diameter was 0.612" and its impact velocity was estimated to be 2689 fps. Lets say the same bullet stops expanding at 1800 fps. Knowing these two points lets compare them side by side using frontal area and momentum, something I call momentum intensity, its the amount of momentum divided by frontal area. I use area because it takes more force to penetrate a medium if the area increases on a cylinderical rod. Its a crude measurement of the amount of resistance encountered by the bullet but it describes in general terms the end result.

Expanded Bullet - mass 160 grains (160 grains equals 0.0229 lbs)
Area is 0.294 square inches
Velocity is 2689 ft/s
Momentum is 61.46 lb-ft/s
Momentum intensity is 209 lb-ft/s/sq. inch

Non Expanded Bullet - mass 160 grains
Area is 0.0897 square inches
Velocity is 1800 ft/s
Momentum is 41.14 lb-ft/s
Momentum intensity is 459 lb-ft/s/sq. inch

The ability to penetrate (momentum intensity) at 2689 ft/s is only 209 while at 1800 ft/s is more than double at 459. What this shows is at 1800 ft/s although slower it encounters less resistance than if driven at 2689 ft/s because of the expanded diameter.

[Traps]

Originally Posted by Arn?Narn.

I am convinced Traps, that you read a bit, inject counter intuitive and illogical conclusions and then post.

I enjoyed reading your take on bullets, Velocity,..what happens to bullets on impact and penetration, if for nothing else, the entertainment value...

ArnNarn a 300 yard shot is the practical limit that most hunters (not all) should follow. Is that what your hung up on? It has nothing to do with the topic at hand. You'll have to do much better than that.

So far I have not seen you respond with anything of substance. If you would like you could actually debate the subject and provide theories or quantitative results to prove me wrong otherwise, until then carry on as you were.

[Arn?Narn.]

Originally Posted by Traps

ArnNarn a 300 yard shot is the practical limit that most hunters (not all) should follow. Is that what your hung up on? It has nothing to do with the topic at hand. You'll have to do much better than that.

So far I have not seen you respond with anything of substance. If you would like you could actually debate the subject and provide theories or quantitative results to prove me wrong otherwise, until then carry on as you were.

Adequate penetration. What amount of penetration is required for adequate penetration?

The issue with your subsequent arguements is that they are all based on the flawed premise that penetration is the determining factor.

Penetration, beyond adequate penetration is of no value.

[Arn?Narn.]

Originally Posted by Traps

So far I have not seen you respond with anything of substance. If you would like you could actually debate the subject and provide theories or quantitative results to prove me wrong otherwise, until then carry on as you were.

I'm not going to argue with you, as you obviously have your oppinion and I'm not going to do a 10 page thread back and fourth arguing physics, (did my 5 years, that's plenty) What I will tell you, is that the equations you have posted with your calculations and comparison are actually flawed/inaccurate also resulting in an inaccurate conclusion.

I'll leave it to you to figure it out....based on your posts, theories, laws of physics regurgetation, I have no doubt you'll find your mistake rather quickly.

[Pines]

Originally Posted by Arn?Narn.

Adequate penetration. What amount of penetration is required for adequate penetration?

The issue with your subsequent arguements is that they are all based on the flawed premise that penetration is the determining factor.

Penetration, beyond adequate penetration is of no value.

the RAMS are buttin heads now ...

[Pines]

Originally Posted by Arn?Narn.

I'm not going to argue with you, as you obviously have your oppinion and I'm not going to do a 10 page thread back and fourth arguing physics, (did my 5 years, that's plenty) What I will tell you, is that the equations you have posted with your calculations and comparison are actually flawed/inaccurate also resulting in an inaccurate conclusion.

I'll leave it to you to figure it out....based on your posts, theories, laws of physics regurgetation, I have no doubt you'll find your mistake rather quickly.

Arn ..i do believe you"ve been challenged ..why don't u point out the mistake quicker ....

[Arn?Narn.]

it's not butting heads Justin, ....he is just of an oppinion that he holds dearly...

He has the flawed premise that penetration is the determining factor in lethailty.

It is true, that without penetration, there is no lethality, but once sufficient penetration is acheived for lethailty, further penetration/penetrating potential of little value.

Pay more attention to calibre and bullet and less to penetration beyond lethality and he'll be back on the right path...

Penetration, beyond lethal penetration is of no value.

[Pines]

Originally Posted by Arn?Narn.

it's not butting heads Justin, ....he is just of an oppinion that he holds dearly...

He has the flawed premise that penetration is the determining factor in lethailty.

It is true, that without penetration, there is no lethality, but once sufficient penetration is acheived for lethailty, further penetration/penetrating potential of little value.

Pay more attention to calibre and bullet and less to penetration beyond lethality and he'll be back on the right path...

Penetration, beyond lethal penetration is of no value.

I am NOT Justin ..so get that straight first ...

[Artist]

My goodness, just shoot the thing between the eyes and be done with it!

Originally Posted by Arn?Narn.

it's not butting heads Justin, ....he is just of an oppinion that he holds dearly...

He has the flawed premise that penetration is the determining factor in lethailty.

It is true, that without penetration, there is no lethality, but once sufficient penetration is acheived for lethailty, further penetration/penetrating potential of little value.

Pay more attention to calibre and bullet and less to penetration beyond lethality and he'll be back on the right path...

Penetration, beyond lethal penetration is of no value.

LOL...yup...whether it hangs on hide on far side...passes through by three feet or three hundred feet, penetration is irrelevant at that point in regards to lethality. Most bullets at most speeds make it to the far hide.... within reason.

[Traps]

Originally Posted by Arn?Narn.

Adequate penetration. What amount of penetration is required for adequate penetration?

The issue with your subsequent arguements is that they are all based on the flawed premise that penetration is the determining factor.

Penetration, beyond adequate penetration is of no value.

Adequate is somewhat a subjective term as there is varying levels of adequate. A 25-06 100 grain conventional bullet aimed at the shoulder of a moose is inadequate. A 180 grain TSX aimed at the shoulder of a moose is adequate.

You said it yourself about penetration, without penetration there is no lethality, that means penetration is the determining factor. You should realize that with that statement it put you into a non-debate on the subject of penetration. Congratulations you are in agreement, albiet you don't think you are.

Penetration beyond adequate - account for the less than ideal shots and you'll find your animal, not wound it.

[Traps]

Originally Posted by Arn?Narn.

I'm not going to argue with you, as you obviously have your oppinion and I'm not going to do a 10 page thread back and fourth arguing physics, (did my 5 years, that's plenty) What I will tell you, is that the equations you have posted with your calculations and comparison are actually flawed/inaccurate also resulting in an inaccurate conclusion.

I'll leave it to you to figure it out....based on your posts, theories, laws of physics regurgetation, I have no doubt you'll find your mistake rather quickly.

Since you bring up "did my five years" in the same breath of arguing physics what experience do you have in the subject? A co-op would do five years....an engineer perhaps, or an extended five year science degree?

If the equations are so flawed maybe you could be so kind in pointing them out. You'd rather not argue the point, but here you are. If you have five years of what you say you have it should be an advantage that I think you wouldn't relinquish. A rather quick and easy victory in the debate is yours for the taking so please describe it to me.

[Pathfinder76]

As usual, the real world has a tendency to dispel theory rather quickly. While your argument is valid it is so in a very simplistic vacuum. Velocity is not the enemy of success and here is a Pronghorn that took a 55 grain Nosler Ballistic Tip shot from a .243 at a muzzle velocity of 4000 fps. The bullet entered his chest and lodged on the inside of a hip bone.

It's all about the bullet and how it reacts and/or performs.

[Traps]

Originally Posted by sheephunter

LOL...yup...whether it hangs on hide on far side...passes through by three feet or three hundred feet, penetration is irrelevant at that point in regards to lethality. Most bullets at most speeds make it to the far hide.... within reason.

Huck yuck, uhhhh heeeeulllck .....too funny, when you chime in with your LOL.....yup it reminds me of goofy's laugh.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KRmgQPfmigw

What about when penetration doesn't reach the far side? Is the glass only half full?

[Arn?Narn.]

Originally Posted by Traps

Since you bring up "did my five years" in the same breath of arguing physics what experience do you have in the subject? A co-op would do five years....an engineer perhaps, or an extended five year science degree?

If the equations are so flawed maybe you could be so kind in pointing them out. You'd rather not argue the point, but here you are. If you have five years of what you say you have it should be an advantage that I think you wouldn't relinquish. A rather quick and easy victory in the debate is yours for the taking so please describe it to me.

I'm not looking to win a debate, I shoot a 30/30...45/70 and 7mm-08 95% of the time, ...

How did you calculate "momentum intensity" in your first equation, and then compare it to the "momentum intensity" of your second equation.
Data out put is only as good as data input.

You a big fan of FMJ?

[Arn?Narn.]

Originally Posted by Traps

Momentum by definition is the measure of motion and is mass x velocity. Take a bullet, say for example the 338 160 grain TTSX bullet that I recovered this year. Expanded diameter was 0.612" and its impact velocity was estimated to be 2689 fps. Lets say the same bullet stops expanding at 1800 fps. Knowing these two points lets compare them side by side using frontal area and momentum, something I call momentum intensity, its the amount of momentum divided by frontal area. I use area because it takes more force to penetrate a medium if the area increases on a cylinderical rod. Its a crude measurement of the amount of resistance encountered by the bullet but it describes in general terms the end result.

Expanded Bullet - mass 160 grains (160 grains equals 0.0229 lbs)
Area is 0.294 square inches
Velocity is 2689 ft/s
Momentum is 61.46 lb-ft/s
Momentum intensity is 209 lb-ft/s/sq. inch

Non Expanded Bullet - mass 160 grains
Area is 0.0897 square inches
Velocity is 1800 ft/s
Momentum is 41.14 lb-ft/s
Momentum intensity is 459 lb-ft/s/sq. inch

The ability to penetrate (momentum intensity) at 2689 ft/s is only 209 while at 1800 ft/s is more than double at 459. What this shows is at 1800 ft/s although slower it encounters less resistance than if driven at 2689 ft/s because of the expanded diameter.

So why did you not shoot a cooler round?

If slower is better, why shoot at 2689 fps???? hmmm...

[Pudelpointer]

Originally Posted by Arn?Narn.

You a big fan of FMJ?

Come on Mike, why don't you just explain everything? Lessons learned through self discovery are usually remembered better.

Your hint makes it too easy.

[Arn?Narn.]

Originally Posted by Pudelpointer

Come on Mike, why don't you just explain everything? Lessons learned through self discovery are usually remembered better.

Your hint makes it too easy.

I think he has figured it out, but doesn't like the edit post expiry time....
nor the results that would result from the correct data