Copper Bullets

[beansgunsghandi]

Interesting article on a group of hunters in the states who want to end lead ammo. I only hunt with copper, but still use lead for practice and for my .22. I'd like to see copper prices come down, makes sense.

[fish_e_o]

while we're at it lets go to steel shot and wound everything we shoot...

bad idea... don't get me wrong i shoot the tsx too but it has lots of penetration and limited expansion good for large game especially bad as a varmint round and the shots i take on varmints compared to large game are 200:1 every year

[Sneeze]

Originally Posted by beansgunsghandi

. I only hunt with copper, but still use lead for practice and for my .22.

edited as I always put my foot in my mouth!

[ishootbambi]

^^^^^ all copper has been around for a while. barnes i believe was first....hornady GMX, nosler E TIP.....more and more companies are offering them.

edit: i see you retracted the question

[elkhunter11]

bad idea... don't get me wrong i shoot the tsx too but it has lots of penetration and limited expansion good for large game especially bad as a varmint round and the shots i take on varmints compared to large game are 200:1 every year

Actually there are a few non lead varmint bullet options currently available.They aren't pure copper,but they are lead free,and they work fine on varmints.

[fish_e_o]

Originally Posted by elkhunter11

Actually there are a few non lead varmint bullet options currently available.They aren't pure copper,but they are lead free,and they work fine on varmints.

varmint grenades are lead free aren't they? either way it leaves a very poor selection. i have never loaded up a varmint grenade round so i have no opinion on them

[elkhunter11]

varmint grenades are lead free aren't they? either way it leaves a very poor selection. i have never loaded up a varmint grenade round so i have no opinion on them

Nosler also has a lead free Ballistic Tip meant for varmint hunting,and Hornady,has the NTX which is also lead free..

[fish_e_o]

i've never had a nosler perform well and i've shot far to many of them

[beansgunsghandi]

After reading about the quantity of lead that was spread throughout deer when hit with a lead bullet I went all-copper. There really is no "safe" level for lead exposure, especially for kids and pregnant women. As I'm dealing with both around here, and we eat a lot of venison (more than any other meat) it seemed prudent. But I've watched a lot of birds eating on carcasses and gut piles over the years, makes sense not to poison the birds with lead to me (especially as those birds eat a whole lot of gophers etc).

I don't think it's a case of "antis" being against hunting, the Gutpile group is made up of hunters, and the editorial was written by someone obviously passionate about hunting. I shot three deer this year with copper bullets, not one went farther than five yards so I'm happy with how the copper works for that.

At the outdoor range I don't think lead is a real big problem for other animal, but I do wonder what the Sibbald range would test for lead contamination, must be tons of it in the ground there. I've probably put a couple of pounds down...

[elkhunter11]

i've never had a nosler perform well and i've shot far to many of them

I have likely killed five or six dozen big game animals with Nosler bullets,and I have yet to have a bullet fail to do the job,but I do prefer the TSX/TTSX,for elk and moose.

[BallCoeff.435]

Never could get a TSX to behave nearly as accurately as a well-designed copper-jacketed lead bullet.

Probably would take up oversize crossbows if things went that far.

[elkhunter11]

Never could get a TSX to behave nearly as accurately as a well-designed copper-jacketed lead bullet.

My own rifles will average 5/8" for three shots at 100 yards with either the TSX or TTSX.The only copper jacketed bullets that I have used were the Swift Scirocco,and accuracy was horrible,at around 2".The absolute best accuracy in my rifles is obtained with bullets wearing jackets of gilding metal.

[BallCoeff.435]

This whole thing is probably just another political attempt to eventually ban hunting and firearms, starting with any possible angle. The validity of lead poisoning, whether in take-home meat or gut piles, is nearly irrelevant to the supporters of that [bowel] movement. It's nice and convenient, however.

Just like the closure of Barnett shooting range in the lower mainland, so that developers could build (more) houses all over the back side of the SFU mountain and keep the greenies happy at the same time, lead in the ground was just an excuse to shut it down. Trace amounts of lead in surface water are indigenous to that area. The closure has also become a cash-cow for parasitic 'clean-up' engineering companies which survive from excess government regulation.

[nanuk-O-dah-Nort]

Originally Posted by beansgunsghandi

After reading about the quantity of lead that was spread throughout deer when hit with a lead bullet I went all-copper. There really is no "safe" level for lead exposure, especially for kids and pregnant women. As I'm dealing with both around here, and we eat a lot of venison (more than any other meat) it seemed prudent. But I've watched a lot of birds eating on carcasses and gut piles over the years, makes sense not to poison the birds with lead to me (especially as those birds eat a whole lot of gophers etc).

At the outdoor range I don't think lead is a real big problem for other animal, but I do wonder what the Sibbald range would test for lead contamination, must be tons of it in the ground there. I've probably put a couple of pounds down...

lead ingested is a non issue. for the little amounts we would ever eat, it is near impossible to be harmed. in the "Dark Ages" they sprinkled lead dust on their food. only the very rich who ate the most had any problems, and that was after ingesting pounds of the stuff

and also note, Doctors routinely leave bullets in bodies if the removal could cause harm. Lead in the body is not that harmful.

NOW... Lead vapour??? whole different story. if you are casting with lead, be very careful, as the vapour is inhaled and our bodies can absorb it thousands of times faster via vapour than solid.

the anti-hunters who got lead shot banned in certain areas were relying on sketchy science at best, and out and out lies at worst. ( perhaps they got their info from the EAU, or the IPCC?)

[beansgunsghandi]

From Wikipedia, "Although lead poisoning is one of the oldest known work and environmental hazards, the modern understanding of the small amount of lead necessary to cause harm did not come about until the latter half of the 20th century. No safe threshold for lead exposure has been discovered—that is, there is no known amount of lead that is too small to cause the body harm."

I'd go with a well-cited article on lead over a, "Heck, no problem." Nanuk, do you have some evidence for what you're saying? I'd tend to trust it more if you did.

If lead is OK then why do the Condors and other birds who eat on gutpiles in California dying of lead poisoning? "Among condors around the Grand Canyon, lead poisoning due to eating lead shot is the most frequently diagnosed cause of death."

I think most reasonable people who actually read the whole entry would tend to want to limit their exposure to lead when reasonably possible.

"Bullets lodged in the body rarely cause significant levels of lead poisoning,[52][53] but bullets lodged in the joints are the exception, as they deteriorate and release lead into the body over time." That explains that.

The project gutpile link is from hunters, not the dreaded, "Antis." Your leadfoil hat is on too tight.http://www.outdoorsmenforum.ca/image...olleye0005.gif

Originally Posted by nanuk-O-dah-Nort

lead ingested is a non issue. for the little amounts we would ever eat, it is near impossible to be harmed. in the "Dark Ages" they sprinkled lead dust on their food. only the very rich who ate the most had any problems, and that was after ingesting pounds of the stuff

)

LOL...and what was the average life span in the dark ages....like 40? Any lead ingestion is bad. Check out what happened to the Franklin Expedition if you want to see a graphic example. As we learn more about toxic chemicals and substances, we alter our lifestyles accordingly. We used to fill teeth with lead and paint our children's nurseries with lead-based paint....we don't any more. I suspect the same will be said with the bullets we shoot our animals with in the years to come. I'm not a big fan of Big Brother looking out for me but when it comes to toxic substances....sometimes it makes sense. There's no arguement to be made that lead is good for us or the environment. Just because we've done it this way for years doesn't make it right. Sometimes change has a reason.....

[Artist]

These are great bullets, and this is a great site that offers some awesome technical data on reloading with copper.

http://gscustom.co.za/

[Gonehuntin']

I say to each their own, let us not be regulated into this lead free ammo. It is all well and good to use quality pure copper or other lead free alternatives, but let's keep it a choice. And if it did go to a non toxic ammunition policy across the board for hunting game or varmints, it's not a great leap into making it not just for hunting purposes, but total non toxic requirement., just watch the price of ammo go through the roof.

[bobly]

I fished the Skeena River each summer for 10 years for Chinook spawners. Each year we casted 150-200 - 16 oz pyramid shaped lead sinkers to use there. Lots of exposure to fumes and slag when doing this. Came back with few very weights with the rest wedged in the river bottom. The locals there would salvage them in winter when that mighty river was very low.

I used split shot sinkers all my fishing days and crimped them on with my teeth. I fired off zillions of 22 rimfire rounds and have loaded thousands of big game rounds with lead based bullets. I cast my own 357 SWC ammo from pig lead and also 50 cal balls for my Hawken. I have handled the stuff all my life. The steel shot I must use for Canadas is a poor substitute for lead. Not enough momentum (massXvelocity)= a lot of wounded, escaped honkers..

Just last year after reading so much propaganda about lead poisoning, I had my blood tested for lead trace. The test results showed not even a smidgen of contamination in my system. The guys that work the smelter at Cominco, Trail are a different story. They gradually lose the enamel off their teeth and are required to drink milk each shift to flush their systems. But we are talking huge exposure to base metals in that environment. Not one of us on this site is ever exposed that much PB. I think there are too many environmentalists trying to scare people into change that is not necessary.

Lead is an ideal bullet material-- heavy, malleable and common. It creates ideal expansion and momentum qualities for projectiles and its use by hunters and trapshooters, etc. is negligible for the environment.

Gimmee a break already with this lead scare crap. If you want to use something other than lead go for it, but keep me out of it. Let's work more on saving our sport. Each year we lose more hunting land to oil company locked gates. Talk about soil contamination in that industry. Therein lies serious environmental concerns. That's the way I see it.

[beansgunsghandi]

Bobly, blood levels of lead only show relatively recent exposure according to the info on the web, bunch of info out there on that. Get a bone test if you want to really know apparently?

It doesn't sound like you actually ATE much lead; lead isn't absorbed well through the skin according to what I've read, most of your examples below except the casting shouldn't be a problem from what I've read.

These aren't tree-hugging antis writing this stuff.

"Virtually every part of the body is affected by lead. Lead has no biological value and competes with metals that are essential to the body, such as zinc, iron and calcium. For example, lead interferes with bone formation by blocking absorption of calcium, which affects memory storage and the differentiation of cells in the nervous system. Lead is stored in the bone, matrix, and in pregnant women, this lead can be passed on to the unborn child."

I've got a pregnant lady and a kid in the house, I believe I'll use copper when hunting, and look into something other than lead for the range if I can afford it (and I check my sights with the copper bullets just to be sure). I still fill my truck by hand despite the chemicals in gas etc. etc., this is a little different to me.

Originally Posted by bobly

Lead is an ideal bullet material-- heavy, malleable and common. It creates ideal expansion and momentum qualities for projectiles and its use by hunters and trapshooters, etc. is negligible for the environment.

It's only ideal because it's cheap......its impact on the environment is most definitely not negligible.

[gitrdun]

Ok, so in post #10 elkhunter you state this:

I have likely killed five or six dozen big game animals with Nosler bullets,and I have yet to have a bullet fail to do the job,but I do prefer the TSX/TTSX,for elk and moose

And then in post #12 you state this:

My own rifles will average 5/8" for three shots at 100 yards with either the TSX or TTSX.The only copper jacketed bullets that I have used were the Swift Scirocco,and accuracy was horrible,at around 2".The absolute best accuracy in my rifles is obtained with bullets wearing jackets of gilding metal.

So which is it? Nosler or Scirocco? lol

[elkhunter11]

So which is it? Nosler or Scirocco? lol

The Scirocco has a copper jacket,the Nolser Ballistic tip,Partition,and Accubond, all use a jacket made of gilding metal.Therefore,I have only used one copper jacketed bullet.

[gitrdun]

Gilding metal is 95% copper and 5% zinc. I figured the relationship to copper was close enough to still generally categorize those that you list as copper jacketed.

[elkhunter11]

Gilding metal is 95% copper and 5% zinc. I figured the relationship to copper was close enough to still generally categorize those that you list as copper jacketed.

I only use the "copper jacketed" bullet designation for the bullets advertised as having pure copper jackets.

[ishootbambi]

Originally Posted by elkhunter11

I only use the "copper jacketed" bullet designation for the bullets advertised as having pure copper jackets.

kinda like the hornady gmx....actually gilding metal and not pure copper.

[elkhunter11]

kinda like the hornady gmx....actually gilding metal and not pure copper.

The GMX actually stands for "Gilding Metal".eXpanding,according to the Hornady site.

[Unregistered user]

Originally Posted by fish_e_o

varmint grenades are lead free aren't they? either way it leaves a very poor selection. i have never loaded up a varmint grenade round so i have no opinion on them

My opinion, they suck compared to Hornady V-max or Calhoons for blowing up gophers with my .223.