New sonar help, Helix mega or HDS

[PlayDoh]

So I’m taking a big leap up from a regular 2D w/gps to today’s tech. I’d like to spend around $1000, but if the $2000 range models appeal enough I’ll buckle.
I’ve been trying to pick the brand and model for a couple years now, and with how the tech is changing so fast I’ve been reluctant.
The last thing I want to do is drop $2000 on a lemon that spends more time in service then being used, who doesn’t right.
I know you can’t really go wrong with any of the brands HB, Lowrance, and the new kids Garmin and the other one which name escapes me now.
Yet here’s my priorities. I’m very interested in the sonar mapping, HB’s autochart live vs Insight Genesis is the choice I need to make yet I know very little about the 2. Insight uses data from users, yet HD has no data sharing? That detail seems huge IMO.
Lowrance I’m thinking the Elite 9 Ti total scan, or as big an HDS I can afford. I think the 3D is a $1000 feature so probably out of my league.
HB choices are Helix 9 G2 SI Chirp Mega. While the Mega gives much clearer views, it’s lacking the SI and DI ability and being able to view them at the same time.
Pretty sure Solix are out of my tax range. I’d give spending that much a consideration if the rate of tech advances wasn’t so fast and my $3000 unit is selling for $900 in 3-4 years and I get to see models for half the price out preform mine.
Since I’ve never really been able to see arches on a sonar and ‘find fish’ I’ve become more focused on finding structure and locations. That’s why the mapping appeals big to me. Not having to keep a virtual map in my mind, and or use a laminated image of a Bathymetry map and work out where I am.
I have a Minkota yet not sure how valuable I’d find iPilot, or reliable. It would be awesome not to have to steer so much, but I’ve gotten pretty good multitasking the pedal and sonar attention.
I’ve been a HB fan forever yet another member here who’s opinion I value suggested a look at Lowrance and I have to admit I’m leaning that way. Insight genesis and total scan being the reason. Mega, which I’m half guessing is Chirp used in SI or DI? It’s hard to keep track of the tech and the marketing terms given to them.
Touch screen seems cool, yet dirty screens don’t. I’m quite good at tech gear so I’m not worried about a learning curve. Yet things like having to go through 4 steps to mark a waypoint irritate me. Just a random example of poor software design that happens to them all.
Anyways, I know these debates have been beaten to death, and it’s a kin to Ford vs Chevy, but I’d much rather have the opinions of others who actually use these, than some salesman who may have only played with the demo and memorized the specs. Those guys seem to be the vast majority now.

Oh and using the unit on the ice is my plan. Yet I don’t need some official ‘ice kit’. As long as an ice ducer is able to connect, I’m good. Helix’s ice software integrated is a definite bonus. Yet I don’t need the flasher view to be honest. I was wondering what a SI, DI or 3D view looks like through and ice hole, yet I guess you have to be moving 5mph?

[RavYak]

First I'll clear up a couple things about DI and SI. For either technology to work you do need to be moving, not 5 mph but if you are just sitting in one spot the screen will just be a blur. SI also shows you everything DI shows you and more, just in a slightly different way. I almost never use my DI screen, I either use SI only(if searching out a new area and want to see details better), a combination screen of sonar/gps/SI(if I am using sonar more for trying to mark fish but want SI on so I don't miss structure off to the side) or a split screen of sonar/gps(if I already know the area).

HB's mega side imaging is way clearer then Lowrances SI. The mega imaging isn't chirp but rather acts at a higher frequency. This provides a clearer image but it also reduces the effective distance. Mega SI units can run at the regular frequencies too if you want farther distance capability.

HB has autochart live, make your own maps on the water but you have to do the mapping on your own. This doesn't really help you find spots but it does help you know where to troll, what area to target etc. Lowrance has insight genesis which does have mapping on some lakes/areas already, not great up here by Edmonton but a number of the lakes down your way are already mapped well so that is advantageous. Lowrance also has sonarcharts live(Navionics capability) which acts similar to HB's autochart live and creates a map while on the water. One thing slightly annoying about the sonarcharts live is that it only records when you have the gps screen viewable, this is something I am hoping has been or will be updated but I haven't updated mine yet to know.

The way I view HB vs Lowrance is like comparing Toyota to Lexus. HB's don't offer as many extra features but they have just as good of functionality(if not better in some regards) at a lower price point. Lowrance on the other hand has a nicer fit and feel and the units are far more customizable. The Lowrance units are also smaller and lighter then the HB units, which can have a big effect depending where you plan on mounting them.

No matter what you do if you want SI I wouldn't settle for anything less then a 9 inch screen. A 7 is the very minimum for SI imo but 9 makes it that much easier to see the details and works way better if you want to show multiple views.

One thing to know about the Elite Ti models is that they only have 1 SD card slot and that you have to use the touchscreen. The HDS models have 2 SD card slots and can be controlled using buttons if you prefer not to use the touch screen. I have the Elite Ti 7 myself and although there are nice things about the touch screen like you say they are a lot dirtier especially if you are handling bait or have wet hands etc.

Based on your post my recommendations would be either HB Helix 10 Mega or HDS Gen 3 9 SI. The Helix 9 Mega or Elite Ti 9 are also good units but sacrifice in a couple spots. For example the Helix 9 not only has a smaller screen but also lower resolution. The Elite Ti 9 only has one SD card slot and requires touch screen input for some commands. The tough choice becomes 10 inch vs 9, Mega SI vs regular SI, autochart vs insight/sonarcharts, no touch screen vs touch screen. It is a tough choice, you can't really go wrong with either but one might fit your needs more then the other.

[sturgeonhound]

Playdoh,

I have both a Lowrance HDS 9 and a humminbird Helix unit. I have one one each of my boats. I have spent the last 18 months using both models and if you are leaning towards the lowrance, that is what I would stick with. As you mentioned you are really interested in the custom mapping....with that in mind, lowrance is the way to go. With the lowrance unit you now have three options for mapping.

1) using insight genesis (taking advantage of the social maps as well as creating you own)
2) navionics sonarchart and sonarchart live for crerating your own maps.
3) And my favorite reefmaster. This is the method I use as I am a hobbyist map maker and the combination of using lowrances sonar logs with reefmaster gives you the most options out there. You can create your own custom maps that you can use on your lowrance unit, as well as in any GIS software package or even on a handheld portable device like your smart phone.

For option 3 you have to be a bit computer savvy, but its nothing overly complicated.

PM me if you would like some more details.

Cheers,
Sturgeonhound

[Walleyedude]

This is a Ford vs. Chevy, or as RavYak put it, Toyota vs. Lexus, debate. There really is no wrong answer. I think it depends on what features you value most.

In no particular order, here's the areas where I think the Lowrance units have a definitive edge -

1) Touch screen. You'll quickly forget about a "dirty" screen once you've used a touch screen unit. It's really not an issue, and they are so much easier and faster to use than buttons that I can't imagine going back. There's a reason there's no more Blackberrys out there lol.

2) 2D Sonar - Lowrance's broadband 2D sonar is the benchmark everything else is measured by. With a properly setup transducer, you WILL see arches and find fish.

3) Trackback - you can "rewind" your sonar logs right on the screen at any time to have another look at a structure or fish and mark waypoints. Pick the specific rock or fish you want to mark, touch it on the screen to put the cursor on it, then press 1 button, and you've now marked that rock/fish with a waypoint at it's exact position. Of course you can do that live in real time too, but the ability to go back is awesome.

4) Networking - With the HDS units, you can share EVERYTHING - maps (including Insight Genesis and Sonar Charts Live), 2D, SI, DI, etc... instantaneously across all units. With the Elite TI units you can share waypoints and trails via a NEMA network.

5) GPS - Lowrance GPS tracking and positioning, and how that's presented on your screen, is the best of them in my experience. More accurate and quicker to respond. Add a Point 1 now or down the road and you've got the ultimate setup.

6) Live Network Sonar - Gen 3 and Carbon only. The ability to see multiple sonar sources on a single unit at the same time is a huge deal for me. If you're working roaming fish, drifting slowly, or most important, working steep/complex structure, it gives you the ultimate in information for boat control, right there on a single screen in front you. You also have the ability to view multiple sonar frequencies at the same time, another big plus depending on the situation (wide vs narrow cone, eliminate interference).

8) Mapping - CMAP (Insight) Genesis and Navionics Sonar Charts Live. CMAP Genesis is a major Lowrance plus. Access to accurate 1' contoured crowd sourced maps on a nearly endless list of lakes for FREE, as well as the ability to continually create your own database of sonar data and maps is hard to argue with. You also have the ability to customize how the Genesis maps are displayed - colors, shading, highlight contours, depth ranges, etc... Navionics Sonar Charts live lets you make your own maps in real time, and especially on the Carbon units, it's almost instantaneous. Rumour has it CMAP is coming out with an auto-mapping program as well for this year, I hope it's true. Combine the two mapping options and you have the best of both worlds when it comes to mapping.

9) Customization - It can be a pro or a con I guess, depending on the user, but I love the fact that almost every aspect of a Lowrance unit is user customizable. From how the display is setup, what data you overlay (including it's size, position, and source), every aspect of your sonar - sensitivity, color palette, surface clarity, noise reduction, scroll speeds down to the finite details of frequencies. Everything works great out of the box on auto, BUT you also have the ability to completely customize your unit for your preferences and every unique situation. I love having that level of control.

10) WIFI/Wireless connectivity - connecting your unit to WIFI is super convenient for downloading updates and you can connect a phone or tablet for a second display. I'll be interested to see where they go with this next, lots of potential left for this feature.

When it comes to DI and SI, it gets pretty muddy. You also have to remember, as RavYak noted, that DI and SI are pretty useless unless you're moving. They'll work and give you valuable info at 1-3 mph, but if you want to see images like the pictures online, you need to moving at 3-7 mph.

I'm a big fan of DI. I almost always have it on my screen as a "second opinion" on what my 2D is showing me. It will work to show you fish when sitting still or moving slowly, but it's better at trolling speeds. I think the DI is largely a toss up, both have great detail, with a slight edge to 'Bird, Lowrance gets the edge in allowing you to view the DI at any time and in combination with both SI and 2D.

When comparing SI, I'd give the edge to 'Bird again, based on cost. The MEGA imaging is very impressive. You get a pretty small viewing length out to either side, but there's no arguing with the detail you get. If you're a hardcore SI guy, it's hard to beat. The Lowrance standard Structure Scan HD SI is good, but it's in second place compared to MEGA. The Lowrance 3D levels the playing field, it provides amazing SI distance and much improved detail, plus of course the 3D view, but it's not a cheap option.

Trolling motor control is a big feature for a lot of anglers. If you've got a MinnKota and you're a MinnKota guy, then going with a 'Bird makes a lot of sense for people. Lowrance has the connection to the Motorguide Xi5. I have to say, I don't get much out of this feature. Controlling the motor manually from a sonar unit is not even close to as easy or efficient as using the trolling motor remote. Even if I had the mapping quality to allow me to use a follow the contour feature, I don't fish that way. It's a pretty rare situation where the fish are all concentrated at a single depth, in an area that's large enough and with simple enough structure, without any other boats around, where I could see myself actually fishing effectively on a follow the contour auto pilot.
Boat control is king, and that means I want to be doing it myself, I don't want to be on autopilot, I'm pretty sure I can do a better job.

I would agree with RavYak on recommending the HDS 9 Gen 3 or the Elite TI 9. If you want to really benefit from SI and get the most out of your sonar unit, the bigger the screen the better. The HDS unit gives you a lot of advantages, but it will push your budget for sure. The Gen 3's can be found on sale for some pretty good prices right now, and if you're willing to go used, you might find a great deal that'll get you everything you want within your budget. The Elite 9 TI will give you a new unit with everything you need that fits in your budget.

[PlayDoh]

Wow, very helpful and detailed info there guys. Very much appreciated. I’m not sure I could have learned and considered all those factors on my own RavYak. I think you could be a consultant or be writing articles to help many more people.
I’m leaning much more to Lowrance now from your advice and info Sturgeonhound. I’m a sort of hobbyist map maker myself, out of necessity. I’ve taken google earth images and overplayed bathymetric images in photoshop, which isn’t as easy as it might sound. I did such for half a dozen lakes I frequent or wanted to try, and took the images to Staples and had them print me out A4 sized prints then put a heavy laminate on them.
I call them my treasure maps, lol. Like a 20th century Navionics. I didn’t manage to make the next step and put the images on a GPS unit, since it’s much easier to just pay for them and have them within a sonar unit.
Anyways, again thank you both immensely. I was expecting a dozen “get this one, I have it” replies, lol or the ones that just confuse you even more.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

[RavYak]

Originally Posted by sturgeonhound

3) And my favorite reefmaster. This is the method I use as I am a hobbyist map maker and the combination of using lowrances sonar logs with reefmaster gives you the most options out there. You can create your own custom maps that you can use on your lowrance unit, as well as in any GIS software package or even on a handheld portable device like your smart phone.

Is reefmaster still available?

I remember talking with you about it in the past but when I researched it I didn't think it was available anymore since they got bought out years ago now.

[Vigsy]

it may not have all you are after, but you should take a look at the new lowrance hook2. not networkable but a lot of the features of higher end units without the price tag.

[sturgeonhound]

Ravyak,

Yep still out there and going strong. They recently released rev 2.0.....its very good.

https://reefmaster.com.au/

I think you may be thinking of Dr.Sonar....they were bought out a few years back.

Cheers,
SH

[SamSteele]

I’m surprised there aren’t more guys advocating Garmin Panoptix. If I didn’t use the HB-MK Link and follow co tours as much as I do I would seriously consider putting Garmin in my bow with a Panoptix transducer on the trolling motor.

[The Spank]

This thread has been a great wealth of info. I purchased a new boat in October. It came with a Lowrance Hook 5 fishfinder/chartplotter with navionics. All new to me. Last unit I bought was several years ago, a humminbird 570. I was thinking of adding something able to connect to the motorguide xi5 80lb I have coming to replace the powerdive 70lb minnkota the boat came with, put the hook 5 up in the bow and put the upgraded unit as my dash unit. I was thinking a Lowrance Elite 7 or Elite 9 unit? The motorguide I ordered has the pinpoint gps, wireless remote and sonar. I hope I’m not barking up the wrong tree with these upgrades?

[RavYak]

Originally Posted by SamSteele

I’m surprised there aren’t more guys advocating Garmin Panoptix. If I didn’t use the HB-MK Link and follow co tours as much as I do I would seriously consider putting Garmin in my bow with a Panoptix transducer on the trolling motor.

Panoptix like HB 360 and Lowrance 3D requires an expensive fish finder just to use it and then costs an arm and a leg after that though.

Neat looking technology but I also question its effectiveness. For example with the forward facing version(the one that most interests me) is only going to work when you cast in the direction it is pointed. I don't know about you guys but I am rarely casting in the same direction unless I am set up on the edge of a school of walleye or something like that.

What is cool about it would be when the bite is tough being able to track your lure and see if you are getting rejections or there just aren't any fish around.

When it comes down to it you can fairly easily spend 5+k on fish finder setups but is all of that really necessary(coming from a guy that loves this stuff and would own all of it if he could lol)? I view things like these as the things top level competition anglers would wan't/need to try and be competitive. As for just going out and catching a ton of fish and having fun, I can do that easily with the regular SI, GPS and mapping capabilites. Heck don't even need all that but I do consider it worth the money to have if you enjoy this stuff and want to become a better fisherman.

[huntsfurfish]

Originally Posted by RavYak

Is reefmaster still available?

I remember talking with you about it in the past but when I researched it I didn't think it was available anymore since they got bought out years ago now.

Yes, its still available. Just updated my Reefmaster Sonar viewer.

Sorry Sturgeonhunter c u already posted.

[SamSteele]

I envision using it while working a break line or large flat area, with the forward looking transducer mounted on my electric trolling motor. By sweeping the trolling motor left and right it would allow you to pinpoint where roving schools of walleye or feeding pike are and what depth they are at. You cast to the fish you see, watch your lure fall towards them and see how they respond. Rejections and you change it up.

I understand what you are saying about the cost. The transducer is an expensive piece. I just love the idea of being able to know the exact direction that fish are at, their distance, their depth, and how they respond to my lure.

Originally Posted by RavYak

Panoptix like HB 360 and Lowrance 3D requires an expensive fish finder just to use it and then costs an arm and a leg after that though.

Neat looking technology but I also question its effectiveness. For example with the forward facing version(the one that most interests me) is only going to work when you cast in the direction it is pointed. I don't know about you guys but I am rarely casting in the same direction unless I am set up on the edge of a school of walleye or something like that.

What is cool about it would be when the bite is tough being able to track your lure and see if you are getting rejections or there just aren't any fish around.

When it comes down to it you can fairly easily spend 5+k on fish finder setups but is all of that really necessary(coming from a guy that loves this stuff and would own all of it if he could lol)? I view things like these as the things top level competition anglers would wan't/need to try and be competitive. As for just going out and catching a ton of fish and having fun, I can do that easily with the regular SI, GPS and mapping capabilites. Heck don't even need all that but I do consider it worth the money to have if you enjoy this stuff and want to become a better fisherman.

[huntsfurfish]

I have both systems- Motorguide Xi5 pinpoint gps connects to my HDS units. And Terrova with Ipilot link connects to my Helix unit, and 1198's.

I like both.

But I do prefer my Lowrance HDS units. And if I had to choose one set it would be Xi5/Lowrance HDS.


That said I do not have the current units, The Carbons or Helix g2's

Do agree with Walleyedude, good post.

[Walleyedude]

Originally Posted by The Spank

This thread has been a great wealth of info. I purchased a new boat in October. It came with a Lowrance Hook 5 fishfinder/chartplotter with navionics. All new to me. Last unit I bought was several years ago, a humminbird 570. I was thinking of adding something able to connect to the motorguide xi5 80lb I have coming to replace the powerdive 70lb minnkota the boat came with, put the hook 5 up in the bow and put the upgraded unit as my dash unit. I was thinking a Lowrance Elite 7 or Elite 9 unit? The motorguide I ordered has the pinpoint gps, wireless remote and sonar. I hope I’m not barking up the wrong tree with these upgrades?

I think you're on exactly the right track.

The Elite 7 or 9 TI will work well with the Motorguide. I'm not a big fan of controlling the trolling motor from the sonar unit or following the contour, but it's a really nice setup. It allows you to do those things, as well as displaying your motor info on the screen - speed, heading, %power, etc..., and the biggest advantage is it allows you to select a waypoint on your sonar unit as your anchor point for the spot lock feature, which is really nice.

Unfortunately, the Hook unit is not networkable at all, but it will work just fine as a standalone unit connected to the transducer in your trolling motor. The Elite units are only capable of NEMA 2000 networking (waypoints and trails), so that's another reason it makes sense to go Elite if you're pairing those two units.

[The Spank]

Originally Posted by Walleyedude

I think you're on exactly the right track.

The Elite 7 or 9 TI will work well with the Motorguide. I'm not a big fan of controlling the trolling motor from the sonar unit or following the contour, but it's a really nice setup. It allows you to do those things, as well as displaying your motor info on the screen - speed, heading, %power, etc..., and the biggest advantage is it allows you to select a waypoint on your sonar unit as your anchor point for the spot lock feature, which is really nice.

Unfortunately, the Hook unit is not networkable at all, but it will work just fine as a standalone unit connected to the transducer in your trolling motor. The Elite units are only capable of NEMA 2000 networking (waypoints and trails), so that's another reason it makes sense to go Elite if you're pairing those two units.

Thank you very much for your input and giving me confidence that my research has pointed me down the correct path and am not spending $$ on a poorly co-ordinated set-up. Talking with salesman selling this stuff is confusing as 8/10 times their info has been incorrect. Thank you again, much appreciated. Now I have to select which unit I want? My wallet will dictate heavily that choice as well.

[RavYak]

The hook 2 units also have no mapping capability that I am aware of unless someone knows otherwise about insight genesis or reefmaster(I am fairly certain they don't have sonar charts live capability).

[RavYak]

Originally Posted by SamSteele

I envision using it while working a break line or large flat area, with the forward looking transducer mounted on my electric trolling motor. By sweeping the trolling motor left and right it would allow you to pinpoint where roving schools of walleye or feeding pike are and what depth they are at. You cast to the fish you see, watch your lure fall towards them and see how they respond. Rejections and you change it up.

I understand what you are saying about the cost. The transducer is an expensive piece. I just love the idea of being able to know the exact direction that fish are at, their distance, their depth, and how they respond to my lure.

I think in theory it would be awesome if it worked as good as you make it sound like it should. Just based on the videos I have seen on it I think they need to do a bit more refinement before I would consider sinking that much cash into it.

[Walleyedude]

Originally Posted by RavYak

The hook 2 units also have no mapping capability that I am aware of unless someone knows otherwise about insight genesis or reefmaster(I am fairly certain they don't have sonar charts live capability).

Both the original Hook, and the new Hook2, are fully mapping capable, with both built in maps as well as a micro SD slot and the ability to use both Navionics maps and CMAP Genesis. The Hook2 apparently solves the slow map loading problems the original Hook series had where the map wouldn't load fast enough at high speeds when viewing at high zoom levels

The Hook and Hook2 units are not capable of using Sonar Charts Live.

[SamSteele]

Originally Posted by RavYak

I think in theory it would be awesome if it worked as good as you make it sound like it should. Just based on the videos I have seen on it I think they need to do a bit more refinement before I would consider sinking that much cash into it.

I’m willing to beta test it and provide a full report if people want to put up donations.

[RavYak]

Originally Posted by Walleyedude

Both the original Hook, and the new Hook2, are fully mapping capable, with both built in maps as well as a micro SD slot and the ability to use both Navionics maps and CMAP Genesis. The Hook2 apparently solves the slow map loading problems the original Hook series had where the map wouldn't load fast enough at high speeds when viewing at high zoom levels

The Hook and Hook2 units are not capable of using Sonar Charts Live.

When you say CMAP Genesis you are saying the Hook and Hook2 series are capable of recording data to an SD card, uploading to Insight Genesis to make the maps and then running said maps?

I know they work with Navionics maps but Navionics maps are useless compared to the new 1 foot mapping capabilities of all these other units. I personally think live mapping is a huge asset too especially if you like to fish lots of new waterbodies like I do.

Its really too bad they didn't incorporate live mapping onto the Hook2. You would think it wouldn't be that difficult and then they would have had a dang good product at its price point.

[Walleyedude]

Originally Posted by RavYak

When you say CMAP Genesis you are saying the Hook and Hook2 series are capable of recording data to an SD card, uploading to Insight Genesis to make the maps and then running said maps?

Yes. Absolutely.

I know they work with Navionics maps but Navionics maps are useless compared to the new 1 foot mapping capabilities of all these other units. I personally think live mapping is a huge asset too especially if you like to fish lots of new waterbodies like I do.

Its really too bad they didn't incorporate live mapping onto the Hook2. You would think it wouldn't be that difficult and then they would have had a dang good product at its price point.

You can't have your cake and eat it too LOL.

The Navionics+ card has by far the best lake coverage and mapping detail of the cards I've tried when it comes to lakes in AB and SK. The ability to use that on top of the built in maps is a nice option.

I agree on live mapping, it's a great tool. I think it's a little unrealistic to expect to have every high end feature on entry level units. Humminbird is the same when it comes to live mapping, AutoChart Live is not available on many of the entry level units or higher end units in the smaller screen sizes.

The Hook2 is an entry level unit, and it's priced accordingly. It's a great option if your budget won't allow you to move up to the higher end units, or you simply don't need or want all of the features that are on the higher end units. You're still getting a dang good unit with 90% of the high end features at a pretty amazing price point compared to the price of sonar units with those features even 4-5 years ago.

[Walleyedude]

I just saw online that the Lowrance Hook2 units are now fully compatible with Navionics SonarCharts Live. That's pretty impressive to have live mapping ability and all the advanced options at that price point!

https://www.navionics.com/usa/blog/p...d-map-options/