Alberta Trappers Association proposed DAO/MOU

[gibb]

Doug if that is how you feel about the executives of the ATA you should run for office I know that every trapper association in Canada are always looking for fresh ideas and new blood.
From an outsider looking in I can tell you honestly that you have the most progressive association in Canada, and believe me I know all the associations.
Jim

[Brian Bildson]

I don't even know what the heck you guys are talking about? Trapping adventures, execs buying up lines? Got something to say why not just come out with it?

Northern Trapper is your only opposition to an MOU because you think it'll cost you more money to trap?

Originally Posted by Brian Bildson

I don't even know what the heck you guys are talking about? Trapping adventures, execs buying up lines? Got something to say why not just come out with it?

Northern Trapper is your only opposition to an MOU because you think it'll cost you more money to trap?

I am still waiting for your response on what is an on and off Local etc.. Maybe if you have something to say just come out with it.

As far as trapline adventures I know Ross and Bill have had one going and there are a few others advertised if you google "trapline adventures". What do you think Brian, is this the way traplines should be going?

Everyone here seems to want clarification on the MOU and to date on this thread there hasn't been any definitive response. In fact there hasn't been a definitive response to most any of the questions raised...just "follow along and take the medicine it will be good for you". Well that isn't good enough for me!!

Originally Posted by gibb

Doug if that is how you feel about the executives of the ATA you should run for office I know that every trapper association in Canada are always looking for fresh ideas and new blood.
From an outsider looking in I can tell you honestly that you have the most progressive association in Canada, and believe me I know all the associations.
Jim

Doug could face a delay. To become an executive you must first serve as a director for one year, although I am sure there will be some director changes this year. I agree with you new blood and new ideas can be a good thing.

[Rafter]

Originally Posted by redgreen

I am still waiting for your response on what is an on and off Local etc.. Maybe if you have something to say just come out with it.

As far as trapline adventures I know Ross and Bill have had one going and there are a few others advertised if you google "trapline adventures". What do you think Brian, is this the way traplines should be going?

Everyone here seems to want clarification on the MOU and to date on this thread there hasn't been any definitive response. In fact there hasn't been a definitive response to most any of the questions raised...just "follow along and take the medicine it will be good for you". Well that isn't good enough for me!!

RedGreen and Others,

I have been a Trapper for close to forty years in Alberta now. I do not know what the DAO or MOU is about. Obviously the ATA leadership is not representing me!! I know the same is true for some other trappers.

This thread would be the perfect forum to inform/educate myself and others. I would like to see the ATA post the info here to inform the uninformed and to encourage rational discussion regarding the matter.

I am leery of any major changes, agreed to by a few with the Government, to government trapping regulations that are going to impact trappers in Alberta.

Governments tend to "stack the deck" by organizing "representatives" that are suppose to be representing an industry and then pushing through sweeping changes that are best suited for Government rather than the induviduals that are involved in the industry.

I wonder who sat at the negotiating table regarding the DAO/MOU. Were there representation from non ATA trappers for an example. Was the representation for ATA members solicited from all members or was just the stacked deck individuals agenda pursued.

Leadership means consulting with community, not to be self serving.

Rafter

[northerntrapper]

Brian. It costs me 50.00 to renew my license now. What is the benefit to pay 10 x that? That's all I want to know. Brian, you must know what the benefits are, as you are really pushing it............lay it out for the rest of us. Maybe it is worthwhile. Fill us in.

[bearguy]

Fairly quick and simple to explain. The DAO or MOU are going to protect trappers rights in Alberta, fairly, across the province. The agreement will deal with cabin policy,compensation, etc,and will give the gov. and industry and the citizens of Alta, a place to go to deal with trappers. As for what this gives the trappers, it gives them a voice, education, and a means of communication. This is what started the ATA, being a voice of the trapper and representing our industry. It is the job of the ATA executive, to ensure trapping is carried forward and to address issues that affect trapping. For those that indicate there is a hidden adgenda, you need to stop and think for a minute.

[Rafter]

Originally Posted by bearguy

Fairly quick and simple to explain. The DAO or MOU are going to protect trappers rights in Alberta, fairly, across the province. The agreement will deal with cabin policy,compensation, etc,and will give the gov. and industry and the citizens of Alta, a place to go to deal with trappers. As for what this gives the trappers, it gives them a voice, education, and a means of communication. This is what started the ATA, being a voice of the trapper and representing our industry. It is the job of the ATA executive, to ensure trapping is carried forward and to address issues that affect trapping. For those that indicate there is a hidden adgenda, you need to stop and think for a minute.

Bearguy,

Thanks for the quick and simple explanation. Is any of the info on the DAO/MOU written somewhere that an uninformed individual may read and come to their own conclusions.

Thanks,
Rafter

Originally Posted by bearguy

Fairly quick and simple to explain. The DAO or MOU are going to protect trappers rights in Alberta, fairly, across the province.

I thought this was the idea of being one voice as the Alberta Trappers Association???? Why is this not adequate now? Tell me how the MOU/DAO is going to be superior?


The agreement will deal with cabin policy,compensation, etc,and will give the gov. and industry and the citizens of Alta, a place to go to deal with trappers.

As I said above we already have that with the ATA. The cabin policy is up to SRD to enforce not the ATA.



As for what this gives the trappers, it gives them a voice, education, and a means of communication. This is what started the ATA, being a voice of the trapper and representing our industry.

As far as I know the ATA is doing a great job and IS a voice for the trapper!!

It is the job of the ATA executive, to ensure trapping is carried forward and to address issues that affect trapping.

That's right and as far as I know they are doing a good job now, and in conjuction with Bill 201 I would like someone to point out what would be so special for us to have the MOU and eventually the DAO?
For those that indicate there is a hidden adgenda, you need to stop and think for a minute.

I guess with no outlined rationale for persuing an MOU or DAO what would be the reasoning? I don't know, and that is why we need a proper plan laid out to members that addresses funding etc.. so it is very transparent on the direction us trappers are headed and WHY!!


Again all I see here is generic, tow the line, trust me it will be good for us rhetoric, but no answers.
As for who voted to proceed, it is still 85% of a small number of the membership. I have formally asked for the letter to Dr. Morton dated August of 08 apprising him of the vote in Grande Prairie. If it was said that 85% of ALL trappers voted for proceeding with the MOU/DAO then Minister Morton is not properly informed. To date I have not received a copy of the letter but tomorrow I will telephone the Ministers office and get one.I think proxy voting should be brought back in and so do a few other Locals. It would certainly be a better representation of the membership's wishes.


I am still waiting for Brian Bildson's answers to my questions...not a good sign for someone that appears so confident proceeding in this direction. I believe if concrete answers are given to support the MOU and DAO I would be more than happy to throw all my support behind it. Haven't seen it yet.

[sourdough doug]

Fairly quick and--- BEARGUY, if there was any truth to that statement, do you honestly think there would be so many trappers out there that do not understand this whole schmozzle. Are all trappers really that dumb ? I want you all to read closely what RAFTER, had to say, then read it again. Here is a trapper, been doing so for 40 years and like most of us doesn't understand it either. He wants direct, honest answers, to questions he has and explanations for what all else has been going on. Who can deny anyone that ?
Furthermore, there is no way in hell, that the ATA can fund the operating cap required to keep it afloat. For the comparison to be made between the ATA and APOS was one of the most ridiculous statements I had heard in a long time and that we can operate as they do---NOT--.
GIBB- I was there, approx 6 years ago for a 4 year stint, when communication went both ways. It didn't always run downhill. (From an outsider looking in ---- ). This always amazes me. There has always been two sides to most stories . How many sides have you heard.? This is not being said sarcastically Jim ..
NORTHERNTRAPPER - Damn right that -- 500$ PER YEAR-- is too much..For you, me and 85% of the others out there who cannot catch the big money fur, cuz they're not on our kind of lines to any extent.. Should be plain as the nose on your face, keeping in mind, Why it is that all will pay-- TO FUND THE DAO and RELATED EXPENSES.

[Brian Bildson]

As I explained in an earlier post I've been on the road all this week and out of touch, but it's nice to be popular.

Red I've been contacted by a member of the Sundre Local and told that you belong to the Rocky local. So I've passed my questions on to the appropriate local. However to answer your specific question, over the years I've heard that the Sundry local was a member, then dropped out of ATA but kept a local going, then came back in.

I don't know if that is true or not, and have never cared enough to ask at the ATA office level, but am still curious. I still don't the answer back yet, can you assist?

As for providing you with details of the MOU & DAO launch I'd suggest you send your questions to the ATA presidents meeting in April ,via your local's executive. Might as well get the answer right from the horses mouth as I am not part of the ATA executive. I can tell you our Grande Prairie local felt we were very well informed and took the iniative of inviting Gordy Klassen to come to several of our meetings for updates.

I do want to thank RedGreen for starting this thread. We must have a forum for respectful difference of opinions and fresh thinking to stay vibrant as an organization. The points you have all have brought up are valid from your perspective and I respect that. So let me make my case for increased self government.

I'm getting old and I've been around. I've sat on the ACA Board for many years now. In that time I've gotten to know the last few SRD's deputy ministers and ADM's, as they have also sat on the ACA board. Also over the last 3 years my fellow Board members have chosen me to sit as their Chairman. This has led to one on one discussions with both the previous Minister Coutts, and Minister Morton.

I mention this because it is important in how I have shaped the opinions I have today. As the ATA representative on the ACA board I took every opportunity I could to stay current on government mindset towards trapping. I had the unbelievable advantage of talking directly to the decision makers. What I heard alarmed me.

There was then, and still is today, an element of government staff who view trapping as unnecessary in today's world. They used all the same arguements we've heard for years. Lack of active trappers on the landscape, cabin abuses, not economically viable. And in truth their arguments hold some weight, but do not apply to the majority of trappers.

Now couple this with an energy boom going on like never seen before. Government policy was, and is, to develop those resources. However there is one potential little thorn in the side of fast tracking development and that's trappers. Our tenure on the land is different then other users and the oil & gas companies don't like it.

The pressure was on to make changes to the present trapping system and several models were explored. Things like replacing of the RFMA system with open recreational licenses, no cabins allowed, eliminating RFMA's from select portions of the province, radical changes that would have changed trapping forever. This process is still on going but thankfully the ATA is lobbying hard for our interests.

I suspect that most of you know this information already, as it was freely discussed around the province. I'm going to assume that you accept that this process was and is still ongoing. Based on your acceptance of that assumption, which I personally know to be true, I make the following case for increased self government.

You'll notice I'm not using the terms DAO or MOU, as I want fellow trappers to really think about what those terms mean. A MOU & DAO are tools for us to achieve what ever level of self-government the ATA feels is right. This level will also have to be agreeable to the government of the day of course.

I believe that in order to achieve an assured future for trapping in AB we need to have that self government and position ourselves as the provider of services to both our members and government. Of course the ATA must focus on those things that benefit our members most, and are the best fit for us. No one wants to be involved in enforcement or SRD management duties.

The important thing here is to be an active partner with SRD in the affairs of Alberta Trappers. As a partner you are in the communication and decision making processes. An active trappers association and membership also supplies a valuable on-the-ground resource to SRD.

In a DAO both parties are forced to continue working together through their program agreements or MOU's. I say forced because MOU's and program agreements are essentially contracts between the parties. So if a political party loses an election and is ousted the existing contracts and the DAO continue to exist and are in force.

Of course a new government can disband the DAO's put in place by the previous government, but it takes time and effort. More likely they'd keep the DAO and try to reshape it to their vision. The same benefit exists should the party stay the same but have a regime change e.g. Klein / Stelmach. The new guys running the show are unlikely to throw out their own DAO.

My hope is the members of the ATA stay on target and focused. Lets have this discussion but I hope those still undecided can see the value in making a rational business decision. Because that's what this is a business decision.

I've looked at the facts and I'm siding with the ATA executive because they are making good business sense. I'm not going to let fear of change or smoke screens about increased costs scare me off. In regards to the "fee increase" issue, come on let's get serious. What organization is going to price membership out of the reach of their members? Maybe the dodo club.

Fellow trappers please think about about this issue and come to your own conclusions. But you have an excellent opportunity to ask any questions at the upcoming ATA presidents meeting April 18th. If you don't have an executive attending perhaps you could fax your questions to the ATA and give them a chance to answer.

As for you Redgreen I have a question for you. What did the ATA executive tell you when you asked them these same questions? Of course I'm assuming you did contact them right?

[Brian Bildson]

P.S

Trapline tours?

Sounds like another smokescreen. What business is it of mine if some trapper can make a buck showing our way of life to an interested party. If that person is only observing and not handling traps it's legal... enough said

The way that question is phrased also implies that there is more to this then we common people are in on. Why don't you guys in the know let us in on this, sounds like a real money maker to me. Yup buy up all the trap lines in Alberta and tap into that great unexploited business of trapline tours.

Let's see average trapline price $40,000. I could probably get $200 a day. Man if things go good I could probably pay it off by 2050. You just might be on to something here.

Originally Posted by Brian Bildson

As I explained in an earlier post I've been on the road all this week and out of touch, but it's nice to be popular.

Red I've been contacted by a member of the Sundre Local and told that you belong to the Rocky local. So I've passed my questions on to the appropriate local.

Whatever would those questions be?

However to answer your specific question, over the years I've heard that the Sundry local was a member, then dropped out of ATA but kept a local going, then came back in.

I belong to both the Sundre and Rocky locals.

I don't know if that is true or not, and have never cared enough to ask at the ATA office level, but am still curious. I still don't the answer back yet, can you assist?

I don't know either but if so it must have been a very long time ago

As for providing you with details of the MOU & DAO launch I'd suggest you send your questions to the ATA presidents meeting in April ,via your local's executive. Might as well get the answer right from the horses mouth as I am not part of the ATA executive. I can tell you our Grande Prairie local felt we were very well informed and took the iniative of inviting Gordy Klassen to come to several of our meetings for updates.

The Presidents meeting will hopefully clear up outstanding issues. Sundre after repeated invitations finally got Gordy down prior to the GP vote. I'm sorry to say that after his life history and "the sky is falling" there were no real answers to the questions posed. The answer from the horses mouth to membership should have happened a long time ago.


I do want to thank RedGreen for starting this thread. We must have a forum for respectful difference of opinions and fresh thinking to stay vibrant as an organization. The points you have all have brought up are valid from your perspective and I respect that. So let me make my case for increased self government.

I'm getting old and I've been around. I've sat on the ACA Board for many years now. In that time I've gotten to know the last few SRD's deputy ministers and ADM's, as they have also sat on the ACA board. Also over the last 3 years my fellow Board members have chosen me to sit as their Chairman. This has led to one on one discussions with both the previous Minister Coutts, and Minister Morton.

I mention this because it is important in how I have shaped the opinions I have today. As the ATA representative on the ACA board I took every opportunity I could to stay current on government mindset towards trapping. I had the unbelievable advantage of talking directly to the decision makers. What I heard alarmed me.

There was then, and still is today, an element of government staff who view trapping as unnecessary in today's world. They used all the same arguements we've heard for years. Lack of active trappers on the landscape, cabin abuses, not economically viable. And in truth their arguments hold some weight, but do not apply to the majority of trappers.

Now couple this with an energy boom going on like never seen before. Government policy was, and is, to develop those resources. However there is one potential little thorn in the side of fast tracking development and that's trappers. Our tenure on the land is different then other users and the oil & gas companies don't like it.

The pressure was on to make changes to the present trapping system and several models were explored. Things like replacing of the RFMA system with open recreational licenses, no cabins allowed, eliminating RFMA's from select portions of the province, radical changes that would have changed trapping forever. This process is still on going but thankfully the ATA is lobbying hard for our interests.

I suspect that most of you know this information already, as it was freely discussed around the province. I'm going to assume that you accept that this process was and is still ongoing. Based on your acceptance of that assumption, which I personally know to be true, I make the following case for increased self government.

You'll notice I'm not using the terms DAO or MOU, as I want fellow trappers to really think about what those terms mean. A MOU & DAO are tools for us to achieve what ever level of self-government the ATA feels is right. This level will also have to be agreeable to the government of the day of course.

Brian the self-governing trappers org., if it does happen will NOT have supreme and ultimate power. The Govt. will still have "the final say" so to speak on important issues. However you have made some good generic points.


I believe that in order to achieve an assured future for trapping in AB we need to have that self government and position ourselves as the provider of services to both our members and government. Of course the ATA must focus on those things that benefit our members most, and are the best fit for us. No one wants to be involved in enforcement or SRD management duties.

You mentioned earlier of enforcement of cabin policies. So it looks like the intent with the self-governing IS to get involved with enforcement.

The important thing here is to be an active partner with SRD in the affairs of Alberta Trappers. As a partner you are in the communication and decision making processes. An active trappers association and membership also supplies a valuable on-the-ground resource to SRD.

This is what we have now. Although the communication could obviously be improved.


In a DAO both parties are forced to continue working together through their program agreements or MOU's. I say forced because MOU's and program agreements are essentially contracts between the parties. So if a political party loses an election and is ousted the existing contracts and the DAO continue to exist and are in force.

Of course a new government can disband the DAO's put in place by the previous government, but it takes time and effort. More likely they'd keep the DAO and try to reshape it to their vision. The same benefit exists should the party stay the same but have a regime change e.g. Klein / Stelmach. The new guys running the show are unlikely to throw out their own DAO.

First you say all contracts remain the same and in this breath you say they can be struck down with a stroke of a pen????


My hope is the members of the ATA stay on target and focused. Lets have this discussion but I hope those still undecided can see the value in making a rational business decision. Because that's what this is a business decision.

I've looked at the facts and I'm siding with the ATA executive because they are making good business sense. I'm not going to let fear of change or smoke screens about increased costs scare me off. In regards to the "fee increase" issue, come on let's get serious. What organization is going to price membership out of the reach of their members? Maybe the dodo club.

Fellow trappers please think about about this issue and come to your own conclusions. But you have an excellent opportunity to ask any questions at the upcoming ATA presidents meeting April 18th. If you don't have an executive attending perhaps you could fax your questions to the ATA and give them a chance to answer.

I certainly hope there is an excellent showing at the presidents meeting!!

As for you Redgreen I have a question for you. What did the ATA executive tell you when you asked them these same questions? Of course I'm assuming you did contact them right?

Yes I have asked the ATA executive questions. The replies were far from definitive and/or "I don't know". Also remember this first started as going directly to a DAO...whatever happened there is also a mystery as when asked all Gordy told me was..."well I felt that it wasn't the way to go" Well doesn't that tell a person alot!! So yes hopefully at the Presidents meeting we can get a clear vision of just what is going on. As for you Brian, you still haven't addressed the sustained funding for this organization. Looks like you bought into a company without a business plan. Not very astute.

Originally Posted by Brian Bildson

P.S

Trapline tours?

Sounds like another smokescreen. What business is it of mine if some trapper can make a buck showing our way of life to an interested party. If that person is only observing and not handling traps it's legal...

Now I have my answer, you are infavour of traplines going this direction, thank you.
enough said

The way that question is phrased also implies that there is more to this then we common people are in on. Why don't you guys in the know let us in on this, sounds like a real money maker to me.

Why yes Brian, if you do your research it is a money-maker!!

Yup buy up all the trap lines in Alberta and tap into that great unexploited business of trapline tours.

Let's see average trapline price $40,000. I could probably get $200 a day. Man if things go good I could probably pay it off by 2050. You just might be on to something here.

Now your business accumen is really showing!!! Please google the active trapline adventures and get the real price tag on trips.

[Rafter]

Originally Posted by Brian Bildson

P.S

Trapline tours?

Sounds like another smokescreen. What business is it of mine if some trapper can make a buck showing our way of life to an interested party. If that person is only observing and not handling traps it's legal... enough said

The way that question is phrased also implies that there is more to this then we common people are in on. Why don't you guys in the know let us in on this, sounds like a real money maker to me. Yup buy up all the trap lines in Alberta and tap into that great unexploited business of trapline tours.

Let's see average trapline price $40,000. I could probably get $200 a day. Man if things go good I could probably pay it off by 2050. You just might be on to something here.

Brian,

In Alberta it would be an extremely rare occurence for any trapper to realize a profit. For most trappers in Alberta, if not all, their trapline activities are subsidized by other sources of income. The better traplines are selling anywhere from $50,000.00 to $250,000.00. Obviously a business venture to be entered into with the realization of no financial gain.

Trap line tours are a very viable option for the trapper to actually make a profit, especially in the Mountain areas. If you host tours for 42 days @ $1,300.00/day (2 clients) the gross revenue is $54,600.00. Add on some gratuities and fur revenue and all of a sudden you have a profitable business venture. Also keep in mind that the original capital invested in the purchase of a line is realized with a profit upon resale of the line.

Successful trapline tours have been and are still operating in Canada for years now. Why not, they are profitable.

Rafter

[Brian Bildson]

No Red I'm not suggesting trapline tours are the route for trappers. What I'm saying is they're legal and I have no problem with them. Once again you throw out comments that are supposed to make readers think a conspiracy exists to convert traplines by the executive. What a crock

Rafter I agree, why not do the tours if you like but I still don't believe a stand alone trapline tour business would generate a living. I'd be happy to be wrong.

Red it's starting to sound like your problem is more with Gordy than anything else. Little jealousy happening.
maybe?

Anyways thanks for the inspiration. This sounds like my next column. I'll review your questions and seek official answers not just my feelings.

And Red as for a business plan it's not my job to write it, but I'd love to do one. I've spent decades running several very successful businesses. I currently manage over $160 million in Real Estate and seem to muddle my way through.

[Backwoods Runner]

Trapline tours? Seems like a very thin line to the next step,perhaps outfitted hunts, utilizing trapping cabins as accomodations. OUCH!!! DID I say that out loud. Soon traplines and trappers will just be a disguise instead of actually being fur managers, which is already the case in many areas. This may be a viable option, being with all the logging and oil industry ruining my sets and shrinking my available trapping area.:

This should be on it's own thread, but had to put in my $.25 here.

Originally Posted by Brian Bildson

No Red I'm not suggesting trapline tours are the route for trappers. What I'm saying is they're legal and I have no problem with them. Once again you throw out comments that are supposed to make readers think a conspiracy exists to convert traplines by the executive. What a crock

Rafter I agree, why not do the tours if you like but I still don't believe a stand alone trapline tour business would generate a living. I'd be happy to be wrong.

Red it's starting to sound like your problem is more with Gordy than anything else. Little jealousy happening.
maybe?

Brian, that doesn't even make sense. Grow up.


Anyways thanks for the inspiration. This sounds like my next column. I'll review your questions and seek official answers not just my feelings.

Ross and Bill could help you with the trapline tour data. There are I believe a couple others in Alberta that also do tours. It is an interesting topic.

And Red as for a business plan it's not my job to write it, but I'd love to do one.

So I take it there isn't one then?

I've spent decades running several very successful businesses. I currently manage over $160 million in Real Estate and seem to muddle my way through.

Well Brian, "even in a strong wind, some turkeys can fly".

[Brian Bildson]

Redgreen I've listened to your points and it's obvious your mind is set. I'll let the other readers make up their mind.

My Column will be on self government not trapline tours. The tours are a non-topic. Tours are legal, end of story. The more people we can expose to our life style the better.

Aren't you tired of hiding behind that handle?

Originally Posted by Brian Bildson

Redgreen I've listened to your points and it's obvious your mind is set. I'll let the other readers make up their mind.

That's nice of you to let people make up their own minds...I'm sure they will.

My Column will be on self government not trapline tours. The tours are a non-topic. Tours are legal, end of story. The more people we can expose to our life style the better.

[COLOR="Blue"]I look forward to reading your article. The more information the better!! All I would say please try to keep it factual and informative, without drama and generic statements. That may take some practice for you, but after a few runs at it you may come close. /COLOR]

Aren't you tired of hiding behind that handle?

This statement, coupled with your pm makes you a true cretin in all it's definition!!

[highcountry2009]

Originally Posted by Brian Bildson

No Red I'm not suggesting trapline tours are the route for trappers. What I'm saying is they're legal and I have no problem with them. Once again you throw out comments that are supposed to make readers think a conspiracy exists to convert traplines by the executive. What a crock

Rafter I agree, why not do the tours if you like but I still don't believe a stand alone trapline tour business would generate a living. I'd be happy to be wrong.

Red it's starting to sound like your problem is more with Gordy than anything else. Little jealousy happening.
maybe?

Anyways thanks for the inspiration. This sounds like my next column. I'll review your questions and seek official answers not just my feelings.

And Red as for a business plan it's not my job to write it, but I'd love to do one. I've spent decades running several very successful businesses. I currently manage over $160 million in Real Estate and seem to muddle my way through.

you answer question by avoiding them.Ithink u should leave trapping to trapper and stick to being the 160 million dollar man

Originally Posted by Backwoods Runner

Trapline tours? Seems like a very thin line to the next step,perhaps outfitted hunts, utilizing trapping cabins as accomodations. OUCH!!! DID I say that out loud. Soon traplines and trappers will just be a disguise instead of actually being fur managers, which is already the case in many areas. This may be a viable option, being with all the logging and oil industry ruining my sets and shrinking my available trapping area.:

This should be on it's own thread, but had to put in my $.25 here.

I am suprised some outfitters haven't responded to this yet. I guess Mr. Bildson has a different vision for the future of traplines. As he says, "As long as it's legal...we can do it...end of story"

I wish more people would put there two bits in here and voice their opinions. I don't want this thread to die just yet. Doesn't anyone have comments on proxy voting, building a 500K+ store when times are in financial ruin, or trapper education...how that money should be spent... promoting public education vs trapper education through courses, advanced courses???....there are lots of topics to discuss and start new threads on here and get some ideas flowing.


Now thanks to Mr. Bildson and his pm's my fire is lit. I have some queries into the Ministers Office and waiting for their response.

Originally Posted by bearguy

Fairly quick and simple to explain. The DAO or MOU are going to protect trappers rights in Alberta, fairly, across the province. The agreement will deal with cabin policy,compensation, etc,and will give the gov. and industry and the citizens of Alta, a place to go to deal with trappers. As for what this gives the trappers, it gives them a voice, education, and a means of communication. This is what started the ATA, being a voice of the trapper and representing our industry. It is the job of the ATA executive, to ensure trapping is carried forward and to address issues that affect trapping. For those that indicate there is a hidden adgenda, you need to stop and think for a minute.

I replied to your post...nothing to say?

[sourdough doug]

I was under the impression that one could be accompanied by peoples on their line, however they were NOT ALLOWED to handle the fur nor skin or aid in prep. without having a trappers license. Now this is not what is being advertised by those presently doing these ventures. They say you participate in all phases of trapping and to my understanding this is ILLEGAL-- but only for some. It will next be the outfitters, who will be demanding permanent dwellings in their areas. Can anyone see where this is heading, all becuz, SOME "TRAPPERS" are doing so already. Having year-round dwellings nearby, doesn't exactly hinder or deter one from persuing these vested interests.
--- Regarding, the purchasing of land and building of a store, not long ago as I passed thru Westlock, I made a phone call to a Real Estate co. and was shown a building of approx 16000 sq. ft, more than half which could be sublet or leased, just off main street, included warehouse space, loading dock and more for 500,000 price open for neg. Which made me wonder, was anything looked into or does it have to be shining new, like a big new belt buckle.. And there were other sites avail., but I didn't have time to view them. Plus the fact, that I cannot imagine a bank taking the present store as much equity.
---As for Red - "hiding behind a handle" - well that's what most forums about, then there are those that like to see -- their names - front and center..

[shetrapper]

Hi there to all trappers, both male and female. I am Junior on our FRMA and have now trapped for two years. I really enjoyed taking the trappers course and I am sad this season has ended..but sure looking forward to next!!! We sure did have a successful year.

I attended with my husband last years ATA AGM and Convention in Grande Prairie. I was and still am a member in good standing with the ATA. ASRD regulations do not require me to get a Junior partnership as I am a Spouse. Well we both paid our registrations and when I went to officially register at the Convention I was told because I didn't have a trappers licence I wouldn't be eligible to vote. The registration gal just smiled and said it may be SRD regs to be an active trapper, but it's not ATA policy.

This is totally unfair, I am an active trapper, a member in good standing with the ATA, and should be eligible to vote. What kind of organization will allow you to be a registered member (not an associate member) and be ineligible to vote? None that I know of. I think a review from the Societies Act would maybe put this Association in their place. This is discrimination at it's height and I am not going to stand for it. We drove 8 hours to get up there and get treated like that??

We respected the fact that proxy voting was not allowed for this vote, and drove all the way up there, and then 1/2 our voting privledges went out the door in spite of the fact I am a member in good standing with the ATA, am a bonfide active trapper in accordance with our Govt. regulations ... this is not palatable.

I don't know how many women trappers were caught in the same boat, but I would urge you to get hold of the Societies Act Administration, have this Association audited and also send a message to the ASRD Minister.

[Rafter]

Originally Posted by shetrapper

Hi there to all trappers, both male and female. I am Junior on our FRMA and have now trapped for two years. I really enjoyed taking the trappers course and I am sad this season has ended..but sure looking forward to next!!! We sure did have a successful year.

I attended with my husband last years ATA AGM and Convention in Grande Prairie. I was and still am a member in good standing with the ATA. ASRD regulations do not require me to get a Junior partnership as I am a Spouse. Well we both paid our registrations and when I went to officially register at the Convention I was told because I didn't have a trappers licence I wouldn't be eligible to vote. The registration gal just smiled and said it may be SRD regs to be an active trapper, but it's not ATA policy.

This is totally unfair, I am an active trapper, a member in good standing with the ATA, and should be eligible to vote. What kind of organization will allow you to be a registered member (not an associate member) and be ineligible to vote? None that I know of. I think a review from the Societies Act would maybe put this Association in their place. This is discrimination at it's height and I am not going to stand for it. We drove 8 hours to get up there and get treated like that??

We respected the fact that proxy voting was not allowed for this vote, and drove all the way up there, and then 1/2 our voting privledges went out the door in spite of the fact I am a member in good standing with the ATA, am a bonfide active trapper in accordance with our Govt. regulations ... this is not palatable.

I don't know how many women trappers were caught in the same boat, but I would urge you to get hold of the Societies Act Administration, have this Association audited and also send a message to the ASRD Minister.

SheTrapper,

On the light side, "Hell hath no fury as a woman scorned"

In my opinion you are a bona fide trapper who belongs to an association that does not give you a voice. I agree whole heartedly with you, as it is not right that you do not have a voice. I am guessing the ATA thinks that your husband will get two votes by getting his spouse to vote his way and that his spouse is incapable to form her own opinion.

I suggest you work on changing this situation as I bet you could garner a lot of support from other non voting members and families. You can become a junior trapper. Would this allow you to vote then???

The bonds of husband and wife on a trapline create a very successful and rewarding lifestyle and business venture. True companionship prevails and safety in remote areas are addressed. I am sure that you two are the envy of your peers.

Best wishes,
Rafter

[Elaphus]

Shetrapper.................that does not seem equitable. I no longer belong to the ATA as I do not live in Alberta any longer, but I did belong to it for 10 years before I moved. In all fairness the ATA is one of the better trappers associations in Canada. They all have their problems to be sure, but doesn't everything? My advice is to continue pursuing this issue and make things happen. My wife traps and she would not stand for that either.

On the subject of 'trap line tours'. These are nothing new really. I first saw these being offered by several outfitters I knew in British Columbia close to 20 years ago. Make no mistake, these guys were trappers and ran their lines all winter. They were also outfitters and these tours were offered as a way to try and make a few extra bucks during the winter to help maintain and use the infrastructure during the winter.

Others saw the ads and it has slowly mushroomed and spread out over the years.

There is a demand for it, although I suspect there are way more guys offering these packages than clients actively looking for the service. Nevertheless I know a chap from Illinois that has gone on two or three of them in BC and Alaska. He enjoys them and it is an unusual winter outing for him.........it has also given him a new appreciation of what trappers do, how they feel about the resource and the work involved.

It is always pretty easy to find the negative with anything.......I am guilty of that on a regular basis..........but that is one thing to consider. Those who do go on a trap line tour may become ambassadors for the industry and way of life.

There are always issues, and there are always some with hidden agendas. It is the nature of the beast. But really, I do not view trap line tours as any kind of a threat that is going to affect many in any kind of meaningful way, other than being perceived as a irritant.

I lived in areas where they were being conducted. The trapper was on his line and it really didn't have any affect on me.........other than there were a couple more people in the bush that I knew were there but never saw.

[Rafter]

Originally Posted by redgreen

I am suprised some outfitters haven't responded to this yet. I guess Mr. Bildson has a different vision for the future of traplines. As he says, "As long as it's legal...we can do it...end of story"

I wish more people would put there two bits in here and voice their opinions. I don't want this thread to die just yet. Doesn't anyone have comments on proxy voting, building a 500K+ store when times are in financial ruin, or trapper education...how that money should be spent... promoting public education vs trapper education through courses, advanced courses???....there are lots of topics to discuss and start new threads on here and get some ideas flowing.


Now thanks to Mr. Bildson and his pm's my fire is lit. I have some queries into the Ministers Office and waiting for their response.

RedGreen,

Some of my opinions are as follows:

Proxy voting is a very successful way of allowing people to vote that are spread out all over the country. Timing and travel and costs prevent or discourage many people from partaking in exercising their right to vote. Many organizations use proxy voting as a means to get higher participation in their voting. You want people to vote then make it efficient and inexpensive! I believe that most people agree that trapping is not a huge money maker in these times.

I am not against investing resources in a building. However, unless a realistic feasibility study is performed and proves that the $500,000.00 initial capital cost is a sound investment then the project should not go ahead. I do question the feasibilty of a new building. What revenues will be generated to give a return on the investment? Simply put is there a business plan? Can members review it? Will there be a proxy vote on it so that all members can have their input?

The DAO spooks me a little as I question if we can govern ourselves. Do we have the expertise, the maturity, the funding, the structure, and a constitution in place for such a venture. Again have all the trappers from accross the Province had meaningful consultation with the ATA Leadership regarding self governance? I really advocate for self government but it is a big big step. I suggest the ATA steps back a bit on the DAO until full meaningful consultation with all trappers in the Province take place. I really appreciate the efforts of all the leaders of the ATA but the DAO is a huge undertaking and I do not believe all trappers in the Province understand or know about it.

Trapper education is a must for new trappers in my books. It should be self funded by the participants.

Public education is vital to the future of the trapping industry, not just in Alberta, but world wide. In the Yukon for example the importance and craft of trapping is taught in schools. ( Perhaps the Alberta SRD Minister can fund trapper education in schools ) Main stream society needs to understand Canads's oldest industry, the reason for trapping today, humane trapping methods employed, lifestlye, preservation of heritage, etc...etc... Do trappers in Alberta know that trapping is not allowed in Colorado anymore??? Why??? Due to an uninformed/uneducated public that votes!!!!!

Thanks,
Rafter

[Rafter]

Originally Posted by Elaphus

Shetrapper.................that does not seem equitable. I no longer belong to the ATA as I do not live in Alberta any longer, but I did belong to it for 10 years before I moved. In all fairness the ATA is one of the better trappers associations in Canada. They all have their problems to be sure, but doesn't everything? My advice is to continue pursuing this issue and make things happen. My wife traps and she would not stand for that either.

On the subject of 'trap line tours'. These are nothing new really. I first saw these being offered by several outfitters I knew in British Columbia close to 20 years ago. Make no mistake, these guys were trappers and ran their lines all winter. They were also outfitters and these tours were offered as a way to try and make a few extra bucks during the winter to help maintain and use the infrastructure during the winter.

Others saw the ads and it has slowly mushroomed and spread out over the years.

There is a demand for it, although I suspect there are way more guys offering these packages than clients actively looking for the service. Nevertheless I know a chap from Illinois that has gone on two or three of them in BC and Alaska. He enjoys them and it is an unusual winter outing for him.........it has also given him a new appreciation of what trappers do, how they feel about the resource and the work involved.

It is always pretty easy to find the negative with anything.......I am guilty of that on a regular basis..........but that is one thing to consider. Those who do go on a trap line tour may become ambassadors for the industry and way of life.

There are always issues, and there are always some with hidden agendas. It is the nature of the beast. But really, I do not view trap line tours as any kind of a threat that is going to affect many in any kind of meaningful way, other than being perceived as a irritant.

I lived in areas where they were being conducted. The trapper was on his line and it really didn't have any affect on me.........other than there were a couple more people in the bush that I knew were there but never saw.

Elaphus

Good Post!

Thanks,
Rafter

[THEB]

Quote from ATA constitution


Voted on and changed by the voting members at the Lac La Biche AGM in 2004


1. REGULAR MEMBERS are those who are actively engaged in the business of trapping and hold a valid and subsisting Alberta license to do so as well as a full regular membership in the Association. Regular members have voting privileges and full rights of discussion at all general meetings of the Association. Voting privileges and the right to hold office are granted only to Regular Members except as outlined in sub-section 2 of 6 of Section III