Crossbows???

[Stinky Coyote]

Originally Posted by Lefty-Canuck

This isn't going to turn into a Quebec referendum thing is it??!!

Hold a vote every couple years looking for the answer you want, costing taxpayers a tonnes of money to find out that what was decided before still holds true?

LC

but the masses don't just look at things without bias and move real quick, it took me awhile to fully learn about the tool, imagine a crapload of other passionate people and see how much slower things move vs small numbers, more numbers slower we go...it takes discussions like these.....man, without the internet I bet I might not see the crossbow inclusion in Alberta in my lifetime, progress is coming and its a good thing in this case, put the tool where it fits, its good for everyone, simple as that, I still say first vote was a gooder, not that I think they did it as the only means of making the decision, I think they wanted to use it as part of the decision/equation...my guess is they are simply waiting for the tool to be more understood and they may try the vote again and if get over 50% for then it might help them include it? I dunno the strategy, but I thought for a first go the numbers weren't too bad...considering how misunderstood this tool is among civilization period...nevermind hunters

[58thecat]

Originally Posted by ForwardBias

This is a good thread. I have never really gave the crossbow hunter side a thought until i started following this. I still dont think they should be allowed to hunt in archery, but they are more than welcome to discuss it. If they organized and did bring about some change i would stand behind them. Just because I disagree with my fellow outdoors people does not me i wont support them in there causes.

Than it is done, we will march into archery season with cross bows in hand, just got to get it by the Regs people...might take some time.

[pottymouth]

Originally Posted by Mistagin

I'd really like to see that done! Maybe possible with some of the compact compound versions, but it'd be absolutely impossible with my Excalibur recurve crossbow.

Although, in thinking about dumb things to try, maybe I should go home and try it, I've got a truck and a crossbow. .................. nah, I don't know how I could even draw it and put a bolt on the rail, let alone hold it up so it wouldn't have interference from the seats, door frame, windows, etc. And how the bleep would ya get it out the window to take a shot from the driver's seat?????

Tell us Potty, you seen to have some insight into it, having witnessed it done.

I did.. Try reading...

You guys sound like I saw the Red Sea parted...

[Pincherguy]

Originally Posted by 58thecat

Than it is done, we will march into archery season with cross bows in hand, just got to get it by the Regs people...might take some time.

I did send a message to the minister, whether that make any difference of not who knows. Won't hurt anyway.

[Mistagin]

Originally Posted by pottymouth

At what cost ? Our wildlife? Our money and resources? In what zone?

Do we even know how many xgun hunters there are in the province? We know there are 16,000 licensed bow hunters... Creating or combining seasons for 40 guys is hardly worth it.

If there's only 40 guys, what's the problem??? At an estimated 15% success rate that's what - potentially 6 tags filled?

[BuckCuller]

Originally Posted by Lefty-Canuck

This isn't going to turn into a Quebec referendum thing is it??!!

Hold a vote every couple years looking for the answer you want, costing taxpayers a tonnes of money to find out that what was decided before still holds true?

LC

Actually do you think we would have a lot of the regulations we have now if it wasn't brought forward year after year at the annual AFGA conference? Have you been to one to see how the regs get changed. So your saying if you don't get the answer your looking for you just tuck your tail and walk away. That approach is defiantly not a successful one. I will be awaiting an answer.

[pottymouth]

Originally Posted by Mistagin

If there's only 40 guys, what's the problem??? At an estimated 15% success rate that's what - potentially 6 tags filled?

Can you show me where xgun hunters have a 15% success rate, and how many xgun hunters are in the province?

If you read, you might see that 40 is just a made up number.... But it seems your to lazy to read...

[Mistagin]

Originally Posted by pottymouth

I did.. Try reading...

You guys sound like I saw the Red Sea parted...

Sorry, I responded before I got down to where you described the scenarios. I'd still like to see the aftereffects of guys doing it. I suspect they wouldn't be too successful.

I'm assuming that if you called it in to F & W you would have had a pretty good witness statement - kinda akin to having seen the Red Sea parted, ha, ha, ha.

[BuckCuller]

Made up just like three guys shooting from their trucks. BOOM some one dropped the bomb.
Just kidding Potty.

[BuckCuller]

Potty don't shoot it's just a crossbow.

[walking buffalo]

Originally Posted by Dakota369

When did this vote take place? What were the final #'s ?

It was part of the 2010 hunter harvest survey. Most people who received the survey didn't fill it out.

F&W department 2010 online Game Harvest Survey went out to app. 55000 email addresses and out of the app. 12000 respondents 44% were “against”, 37% “for” and 19% “undecided”.



ABA Positon paper.....

ABA and the Crossbow Debate

April 6, 2011

There has been a great deal of discussion on the subject of allowing crossbows in the archery only seasons and zones. This phenomenon is being felt across North America and has raised many concerns from the bowhunting community. The ABA is one of 81 state/provincial bowhunting organizations that are members of the North American Bowhunting Coalition. One of the mandates of the NABC is to educate bowhunters, government officials, other hunters and the general public as to our concerns of allowing crossbows in the archery only seasons/zones.

(1) Crossbows are NOT bows, are NOT archery. The two weapons have some similarities but the main differences of crossbows being able to be held at full draw indefinitely, making use of a draw lock device as well as not having to be drawn in the presence of game, are three of the differences that truly set them apart.

(2) Crossbows are indeed primitive weapons. The ABA does not dispute this.

(3) Crossbows can be used in any general/primitive season in Alberta and the ABA feels that this is where they should be used.

(4) In the few jurisdictions where crossbows have been allowed in the archery only seasons/zones, there were NO organized bowhunting organizations that could promote the “con” side of the argument.

(5) It has been shown that the push to allow the crossbows in archery only seasons/zones has come from crossbow manufacturers, dealers and distributors. There are NO organized crossbow user groups in North America. The crossbow and its proponents are looking for a place to put a weapon that will increase demand, and thus sales. It has been shown that hunters who use other weapons in the general season aren’t willing to buy a crossbow if all they can use it in is a general season. Potential customers await if the archery only seasons/zones can be opened up to crossbows.

(6) Most hunters want to use firearms during the general season; the crossbow has been of little or no interest to hunters even though it is a perfectly legal weapon during the general/primitive seasons. Crossbow manufacturers’ marketing strategies have failed, they have failed to convince firearms hunters to lay down their guns and pick up one of their crossbows. Hunters clearly favor firearms over crossbows when guns are legal to use.

(7) The "out of the box" accuracy of crossbows (another big difference from conventional bows) will cause many firearms-only hunters to migrate to archery-only seasons because they don't have to practice like bowhunters do. The 2002 research paper written by the Ohio and Arkansas deer biologists predicts that 40% of the licensed deer hunters in a new crossbow state will migrate to archery season using a crossbow. In Alberta this could have the potential of adding 30000+ “bow”hunters to the existing 16600 bowhunters we had in 2010.

(8) In Alberta, bowhunters are carefully managed as to their harvest rate on any one species – when the bowhunter harvest rate is more than 10-15%, seasons are shortened, draws are implemented, restrictions of some kind are placed on us. We have already had this happen with antelope, moose and mule deer in some Wildlife Management Units. If you have an influx of new “crossbow” hunters into our archery only seasons, hunter numbers will increase dramatically, the success rate will increase and with it the harvest rate. Restrictions WILL come – guaranteed. At every meeting the ABA has had with SRD/stakeholders in the past three years, we have been told if any of these three results happen, bowhunters WILL go on a draw. Broadening the definition to include crossbows will certainly create additional unnecessary pressure on our archery hunting resource. This pressure is unnecessary as the crossbow may be used in general/primitive seasons.

(9) Consider this scenario, IF (and only if) crossbows were allowed into the archery only seasons and we did see just a 20% increase in numbers from the general hunting population, we would more than double to app. 35000. It would only make sense then that because we are a higher percentage now of the overall hunting population that our “share” needs to be increased to 25-30% of the harvest. Where would that share come from? From the general hunter’s share – they would have their share reduced, their seasons shortened to accommodate the increase of the “bowhunting” segment. Would they welcome/accept this loss of opportunity?

(10) Resident bowhunter numbers have increased 20% in the last 4 years to 16600 in 2010.

(11) Projections indicate that Alberta’s population is expected to double in the next 10 years – based on current population growth numbers and the expected increase in business opportunities, in the resource development sectors especially. Doubling of the province’s population will surely reflect an increase in “real” bowhunter numbers – those who use a compound, a recurve, a longbow. The bowhunters of Alberta and the Alberta Bowhunters Association can accept that – no problem. It is who we all are. But with such an increase, the harvest rate will change and with it, the implementation of the restrictions mentioned earlier, are a very real possibility.

(12) It has been found that new hunters are not recruited by legalizing crossbows during archery season. Firearms hunters simply migrate. Crossbows are not a preferred-weapon for women and children entering the ranks of hunting. The effort needed to cock the spring, the inability to do so while in a tree stand, their physical weight and ungainly handling characteristics, the necessity to shoot the device to unload it and the danger of accidental discharge are some of the reasons crossbows are not the weapon of choice for youngsters and women. The National Archery In The School Program agrees that its not a weapon for kids.

(13) The NABC and its member organizations, will not stand in the way of present laws/regulations that allow disabled archers the use of crossbows in archery seasons. We will, however, suggest available alternatives so that disabled archers can enjoy themselves with modern conventional bows, adapted to their particular disability. This adaptive equipment approach was presented in detail at their August 6-7 meeting. New York, Montana and Kansas have already taken it upon themselves to challenge the idea that a crossbow is always the answer to the disabled archer question. These states have active programs that promote the use of adapted conventional bows, instead of crossbows, for disabled archers. With let-off's
of 80% or more on modem compound bows, a person pulling 40 pounds is only holding
8 pounds at full draw. For those physically challenged individuals that cannot draw a bow,
many states have alternative means such as a "Handicapped Archers Permit". Two such states
are New York and Montana. This permit allows qualified individuals to hunt with a bow
equipped with a wide variety of available devices. It is the NABC’s intention to establish a program that helps disabled archers realize there are additional choices and if they would like, to help them get properly fitted to an adapted conventional bow. Providing state and provincial bowhunting organizations with information and a blue print on how to set up this type of program is an action item for the NABC.

(14) SRD is reviewing the requirement criteria and conditions for the handicapped hunter – they want to clarify things so it is more “fair” to all sides. ABA has no issue with that and will be involved in those discussions.

(15) The Alberta Bowhunters Association conducted a survey of bowhunters in 2010 asking their thoughts on allowing crossbows in the archery seasons. It was important to know what the bowhunters thought – both for the president of the ABA, its executive and membership – so that we were truly representing them on this issue. From 926 respondants, 97% were against crossbows in the archery season (outside of the current provisions for handicapped hunters). These results were presented to SRD and to the other stakeholders at the SRD Alberta Game Management Advisory Group meetings Dec 2010.

(16) SRD conducted a survey of their own to find out the thoughts of the general hunter. They included a question on the online hunter survey asking if they supported crossbows in the archery seasons; that it could lead to increased hunter numbers/harvest and bowhunters going on a draw. The survey was emailed to 53000 email addresses and they had a 20% return rate. Results were YES 37%, NEUTRAL 19%, NO 44%. The average hunter does not support this proposal.

(17) The SRD proposal (thru the AGMAG process) to allow crossbows in the archery season for 2011 was pulled from the table at the Dec 2010 meeting. Now that their own survey shows the majority of general hunters do NOT want crossbows in the archery seasons, we will see what comes from subsequent meetings/discussions.


The ABA, as well as our fellow members of the NABC, fear that the heritage of archery and bowhunting that we’ve worked so long and hard to promote would be damaged. And damaged forever. The efforts of bowhunters and bowhunting organizations across North America (Alberta included) to establish bowhunting seasons and zones will be forever damaged if a “primitive weapon” (whether it is a crossbow, muzzleloader or shotgun) is allowed to be used in the archery only seasons and zones. Bowhunting is and should be challenging and special – crossbows are trying to make it “easy” and “now” with profit the focus and no regard to “bowhunting” or “bowhunters.”

Dec. 5 2012 Statement from AESRD

Crossbows in the archery seasons --- AFGA presented a proposal once again for allowing crossbows in the archery seasons and were advised by ESRD that the issue had been dealt with extensively two years ago and there is no support for this.

[Mistagin]

Originally Posted by pottymouth

Can you show me where xgun hunters have a 15% success rate, and how many xgun hunters are in the province?

If you read, you might see that 40 is just a made up number.... But it seems your to lazy to read...

Don't be so quick to jump to conclusions.
Calling me too lazy to read is arrogant and speculative, I read a lot, and comprehend what I read.

You are the guy who threw out the '40' number. I know very well that it was a made up number because there are no stats.
I used 15% as a made up number based on personal experience with crossbow hunters in Ontario as well as other bow users. Actually, 15% is a generous number, actual success among those I know is significantly less.

Perhaps you could enlighten us with your success rates for archery?

I suspect there are a lot of variables, species specific, guided hunts, time spent afield by specific hunters, etc.

Edit: walking buffalo provided figures in ABA's position paper - point # 8 "when the bowhunter harvest rate is more than 10-15%,"

[CNP]

Originally Posted by Stinky Coyote

favorite post in this thread, x1000

personal favorite part of it is this...

I hate to break it to you, but by bowhunting youre not doing anything special bud, any average monkey can go out bowhunting. It doesnt make you a hero

That post was was totally out of context. No hunter I know thinks he is a hero or elite because he hunts with a bow. No one says it. Potty didn't say it. He didn't imply it. I don't know what to say about it but it's just absurd.........the pro-crossbow fraternity just likes that rhetoric cause it spins things up. The thing about the average monkey.......that is tru lol. But, we just happen to have a bunch of average monkeys who would rather drag their knuckles then pick up a bow for themselves

[BuckCuller]

Originally Posted by walking buffalo

It was part of the 2010 hunter harvest survey. Most people who received the survey didn't fill it out.

F&W department 2010 online Game Harvest Survey went out to app. 55000 email addresses and out of the app. 12000 respondents 44% were “against”, 37% “for” and 19% “undecided”.



ABA Positon paper.....






Dec. 5 2012 Statement from AESRD

That poll was to close for there not to be any interest I think that last comment was a little more ABA then SRD.

[BuckCuller]

There were 16600 bow hunters in Alberta and the ABA only polled the 926 that are in there organization now that is representing bow hunters. And let me guess that those 926 members make the majority in SRDs decision making.

[CNP]

Crossbow myth busters they call themselves. The guys that say that "some people" think that crossbows are so much more capable than a bow! They use that to set the stage to tell us the "truth" lol. They spin a good yarn. After listenening to their "truth" I can't think of any reason why anyone would want to use let alone own a crossbow. They will tell you it is not as accurate and not as capable for many reasons. Lots of the guys who will tell you the "truth" don't even own a crossbow. Someone in that category is either ignorant or intentionally misleading us.

I think we need a challenge like in the rifle forum: "I can shoot 1 MOA all day with my crossbow". Maybe I'm not up-to-that but I'll try it and post my results after this big wind goes away.

Lots of crossbows demonstrating 100 yard excellence mentioned in google and youtube.

Here is a story that should wet the appetite for any non-crossbow owner who wants an easy entry into the "new" and "inclusive" and "progresive" archery season.

http://www.nabowhuntingcoalition.com...ssbow_test.htm

[BuckCuller]

Originally Posted by ehntr

Crossbow myth busters they call themselves. The guys that say that "some people" think that crossbows are so much more capable than a bow! They use that to set the stage to tell us the "truth" lol. They spin a good yarn. After listenening to their "truth" I can't think of any reason why anyone would want to use let alone own a crossbow. They will tell you it is not as accurate and not as capable for many reasons. Lots of the guys who will tell you the "truth" don't even own a crossbow. Someone in that category is either ignorant or intentionally misleading us.

I think we need a challenge like in the rifle forum: "I can shoot 1 MOA all day with my crossbow". Maybe I'm not up-to-that but I'll try it and post my results after this big wind goes away.

Lots of crossbows demonstrating 100 yard excellence mentioned in google and youtube.

Here is a story that should wet the appetite for any non-crossbow owner who wants an easy entry into the "new" and "inclusive" and "progresive" archery season.

http://www.nabowhuntingcoalition.com...ssbow_test.htm

Maybe you can shoot that far with yours but I am to lazy to carry around a shooting bench and sand bags. And maybe just maybe you will find that def deer that doesn't here the crossbow go off and move by the time the bolt gets there. Make sure you calculate the wind, barometric pressure, ambient temp and point of angle.

[pottymouth]

Originally Posted by BuckCuller

Maybe you can shoot that far with yours but I am to lazy to carry around a shooting bench and sand bags. And maybe just maybe you will find that def deer that doesn't here the crossbow go off and move by the time the bolt gets there. Make sure you calculate the wind, barometric pressure, ambient temp and point of angle.

you know that! But will all the newbie's , who have heard, and believe that they are a 100 yard weapon, know that....maybe after they lose a bunch of animals, and start threads saying ..help me find my deer !

and yes, we have the some guys flinging arrows that far, but at least they know that's not what the capability is of their weapon... They do it, because they saw some moron on tv do it !.... and think they can to... not Myths like Xguns

[CNP]

Originally Posted by BuckCuller

Maybe you can shoot that far with yours but I am to lazy to carry around a shooting bench and sand bags. And maybe just maybe you will find that def deer that doesn't here the crossbow go off and move by the time the bolt gets there. Make sure you calculate the wind, barometric pressure, ambient temp and point of angle.

Predictable. A three leg BogPod would be a real good solution. A three leg BogPod inside a blind even better. Or a shooting rail on your treestand. Lots of possibilities to increase your range with improved accuracy. A deer will always hear a crossbow "go off", doesn't matter how close or far...........it's loud. You don't shoot when it is alerted by something.

[BuckCuller]

Originally Posted by pottymouth

you know that! But will all the newbie's , who have heard, and believe that they are a 100 yard weapon, know that....maybe after they lose a bunch of animals, and start threads saying ..help me find my deer !

and yes, we have the some guys flinging arrows that far, but at least they know that's not what the capability is of their weapon... They do it, because they saw some moron on tv do it !.... and think they can to... not Myths like Xguns

Yes at first newbies at first may attempt it but I think after a few shots at a target and they will figure it out. How many people seen mr Richard and Sean shoot at that elk over a hundred yards and attempt something like that. If they weren't so lucky I don't think it would have been on tv. I personally know a guy that I would never hunt with because he attempts shots like that with his bow and wounds deer on a regular basis. Again you can't fix stupid. So don't think it doesn't happen in the bow hunting world.

[MathewsArcher]

Originally Posted by BuckCuller

That poll was to close for there not to be any interest I think that last comment was a little more ABA then SRD.

That quote is directly from ESRD in regard to the AFGA proposal and was the official position taken by ESRD in response to the AFGA resolution. Pretty sure that the ABA doesn't speak for ESRD.

[CNP]

Originally Posted by BuckCuller

Yes at first newbies at first may attempt it but I think after a few shots at a target and they will figure it out. How many people seen mr Richard and Sean shoot at that elk over a hundred yards and attempt something like that. If they weren't so lucky I don't think it would have been on tv. I personally know a guy that I would never hunt with because he attempts shots like that with his bow and wounds deer on a regular basis. Again you can't fix stupid. So don't think it doesn't happen in the bow hunting world.

I would shoot 100 yards with my crossbow, if I had it set up for that. Not ever with my compound.

So this weekend I'll determine the number of clicks on the vertical to get me out that far and tape that information on the stock for future reference while hunting.

[Goose smasher]

To the guys who are so staunchly apposed to crossBOWS ,have you ever shot one or hunted with one? A compound is a way better tool in my opinion. 100 yards,yeah right and as far as shooting one from inside a truck that would take some work. It would be like taking your compound and turning it sideways and trying to shoot it. Not much room in a truck. 44% to 37% is pretty darn close too on a vote.P&Y will see the light someday too. If you've never shot or hunted with a crossbow then you have an uneducated opinion. Crossbows were around hundreds of years before compounds were too. In Ontario we have many more bowhunters then Alberta and crossbows have had no adverse affects on wildlife here. Pick up a crossbow this year and see its limitations and maybe you'll change your minds a bit.

Goose smasher

[BuckCuller]

Originally Posted by ehntr

Predictable. A three leg BogPod would be a real good solution. A three leg BogPod inside a blind even better. Or a shooting rail on your treestand. Lots of possibilities to increase your range with improved accuracy. A deer will always hear a crossbow "go off", doesn't matter how close or far...........it's loud. You don't shoot when it is alerted by something.

A hundred yards gives a lot more time for movement compared to 20 or 30. A bog pod is no shooting bench especially with broad heads.

[BuckCuller]

Originally Posted by MathewsArcher

That quote is directly from ESRD in regard to the AFGA proposal and was the official position taken by ESRD in response to the AFGA resolution. Pretty sure that the ABA doesn't speak for ESRD.

They sure try to.

[MathewsArcher]

How do they try to? They present the interests of the majority of there members to ESRD as would any other NGO, no different than AFGA, APOS or any other organization recognized by ESRD.

[CNP]

Originally Posted by BuckCuller

A hundred yards gives a lot more time for movement compared to 20 or 30. A bog pod is no shooting bench especially with broad heads.

You're right. 30 yards = .3 second and 100 yards .9 sec. Doesn't concern me when I shoot a non-moving deer that has no idea that I'm there.

Right, a BogPod is not a shooting bench with or without broadheads.

[BuckCuller]

Originally Posted by ehntr

I would shoot 100 yards with my crossbow, if I had it set up for that. Not ever with my compound.

So this weekend I'll determine the number of clicks on the vertical to get me out that far and tape that information on the stock for future reference while hunting.

If you are going to test it out with your cross bow and keep me informed please on how well it shoots off a bog pod maybe take some pics of the groups for reference.

[BuckCuller]

I'm not being a smart guy. I am interested on how you do.

[BuckCuller]

Originally Posted by MathewsArcher

That quote is directly from ESRD in regard to the AFGA proposal and was the official position taken by ESRD in response to the AFGA resolution. Pretty sure that the ABA doesn't speak for ESRD.

I suppose your right but that position paper made it sound like it was only the 926 members of the ABA convinced them not to implement it. But it was actually a survey that a lot of people did not receive or respond to especially when it was one of the last questions on it.