Howa actions vs rem 700 actions

[Stinky Coyote]

Some great info and comparisons out there now for those considering builds off actions. The Howa looks to be a better way to go in a lot of areas.

Just wanted abo to know that there is a choice that's being used a ton now for this situation and howas are becoming very popular.

Get your googler going.

[Dubious]

randy newberg doesn't call it the howa hand shake cause there horrible. pretty sure the howa rifles back in the day were made off a sako 85 design.

[SakoShooter]

I'm not going to dispute this, because I have no idea whether or not it's true. I don't see the connection between the Sako 85 action and the Howa, 2 lug vs 3 lug, plunger ejector vs fixed ejector, no obvious cosmetic similarities.

Maybe I'm missing something.

[double gun]

Zero similarity between the howa and the 85.

The original howa was a copy of the Sako L61R. I've read that sako sued and won back then so howa made just enough changes to get around the patent infringements.

[Bushrat]

Originally Posted by SakoShooter

I'm not going to dispute this, because I have no idea whether or not it's true. I don't see the connection between the Sako 85 action and the Howa, 2 lug vs 3 lug, plunger ejector vs fixed ejector, no obvious cosmetic similarities.

Maybe I'm missing something.

Especially since The Sako 85 hadn't even been invented yet 'back in the day'.

[SakoShooter]

I don't really know when the Howa action was created.... I've learned that "back in the day" can be just a few years, depending on the age of the speaker.

[Dick284]

The first 1500’s came out in either 1968 or 1969.

OF Mossberg and Smith and Wesson marketed the rifles under the model 1500 designation back in those days.

[rembo]

Originally Posted by double gun

Zero similarity between the howa and the 85.

The original howa was a copy of the Sako L61R. I've read that sako sued and won back then so howa made just enough changes to get around the patent infringements.

^^^this^^^


google "Dickson Howa Golden Bear" The story starts there.

Years ago I had both a Sako L61R and a long action Vanguard. The stocks would swap with little issue other than the bottom metal being slightly different.
The top end dropped right in.

A trigger from a Dickson Howa Golden Bear drops into a Sako L461/L579/L61R or an A series rifle. I know because I've done it.

I have a DHGB "parts gun" here, not much left in the pile now but the bottom metal, the bolt stop/release and some screws.

[Dubious]

I stand corrected, these above posts are correct here is a link to an article about it http://www.sporting-rifle.com/reviews/turning-japanese/

[rembo]

The article mentions the Sako bolt guide rib.
Interesting note: very early Vanguards also had the Sako style guide rib on the bolt.

I've never seen one in the flesh but here's one.

https://www.gunsamerica.com/99225043...nguard-VGD.htm

Found another one.

https://www.gunauction.com/buy/8471466

[brno284]

The Howa is a superior action in my mind. 1 pc forced bolt not 4 pieces brazed together. Superior extraction system, still encloses the the cartridge with 3 rings less the extractor cut, easy twist and turn no tool firing pin removal, integral recoil lug, Fast lock time. Triggers are marginal and Remington tuned has them beat, not slagging the Remingtons or clones as I am a big fan but $ for $ you can give me a Howa anyday. The stainless ones are becoming scarce and I would snap them up any chance I get. The bottom metal is also much heavier than Remington so unless you blind box the Remington will save you ounces there. Not crazy about the metric threads on Howa but I usually recut the action screws to 28 TPI and the action threads to 16TPI when I true them.

I regularily slab the Howas so weights for a build are similar, less the bottom metal of course.

As far as a comparison to the Sako they are better in most ways, superior extractor, integral recoil lug, no guide rib which does nothing. It is a simple, strong action that is very well made with sound metalurgy and design! Whats not to like. I would give you more for a Howa anyday for a custom build, its great that folks are in the dark about them as it keeps the prices down!!

Just my 2 bits FWIW

[Stinky Coyote]

Originally Posted by brno284

The Howa is a superior action in my mind. 1 pc forced bolt not 4 pieces brazed together. Superior extraction system, still encloses the the cartridge with 3 rings less the extractor cut, easy twist and turn no tool firing pin removal, integral recoil lug, Fast lock time. Triggers are marginal and Remington tuned has them beat, not slagging the Remingtons or clones as I am a big fan but $ for $ you can give me a Howa anyday. The stainless ones are becoming scarce and I would snap them up any chance I get. The bottom metal is also much heavier than Remington so unless you blind box the Remington will save you ounces there. Not crazy about the metric threads on Howa but I usually recut the action screws to 28 TPI and the action threads to 16TPI when I true them.

I regularily slab the Howas so weights for a build are similar, less the bottom metal of course.

As far as a comparison to the Sako they are better in most ways, superior extractor, integral recoil lug, no guide rib which does nothing. It is a simple, strong action that is very well made with sound metalurgy and design! Whats not to like. I would give you more for a Howa anyday for a custom build, its great that folks are in the dark about them as it keeps the prices down!!

Just my 2 bits FWIW

Oops, sorry for letting the cat out of the bag.

Now that I have a couple I see the draw.

[gunluvr]

Don't know much about how they're built, but I know rounds feed into the mag easier than a Rem, and also chamber more smoothly and reliably. At least the one Vanguard I have. It's also more accurate than my two Remingtons.

[Bushrat]

I could never understand the attraction to the Weatherby Mark V when the Weatherby Vanguard (howa) is a better design in my opinion for way less money.

[rembo]

Just for interest.

http://www.howa.co.jp/en/products/firer/history.html

[Stinky Coyote]

Originally Posted by gunluvr

Don't know much about how they're built, but I know rounds feed into the mag easier than a Rem, and also chamber more smoothly and reliably. At least the one Vanguard I have. It's also more accurate than my two Remingtons.

i've only played with the 1500 mini and can compare it to a pretty well known action in the cz 527 and can say the howa is a little gem, it does feed and chamber really slick, the action is smooth and slick out of the box and can only imagine when nicely broken in, don't feel a need to break in like i do with cz 527's

the cz 527 is agricultural af until you break it in and i always cycle it full of jb bore compound a few hundred times when new and then it's an awesome little action too, little stiffer on the feeding i'd chalk up to crf design and can hang up at the back end of the stroke if you're really trying to force it, where the howa doesn't seem to have any issues that way, i have two of these mini actions from howa now and they are identical, really pleased, i see why they are becoming so popular

my triggers came at 3.0 lbs breaking clean and needing nothing and likely ideal for the kids, but a quick youtube and can find the instructions to cut a coil to a coil and half and bring that down to even 2.0 lbs really easy(mine was about 1 1/4 to 1 1/2 coils to get to that, you can go lighter but i don't like anything less that 2 lbs

i'll concede i like the single stage of the cz, and trigger blade better on the cz, which was also adjustable to a crisp 2 1/4 lbs

also on the howa just twisting the bolt apart for cleaning is really slick

would love to see stainless options across the line up, i'm sure in time that will happen

[Stinky Coyote]

Originally Posted by rembo

Just for interest.

http://www.howa.co.jp/en/products/firer/history.html

cool, thanks

[WeatherbyFan65]

Originally Posted by Bushrat

I could never understand the attraction to the Weatherby Mark V when the Weatherby Vanguard (howa) is a better design in my opinion for way less money.

an interesting fact that Howa Hired Roy Weatherby Sr to help with the design of the 1500 action and then the relationship in the late 60s with Weatherby to use the Howa action for the Vanguard line of rifles.

[double gun]

I've never heard of Roy helping design - I thought it, and noslers action were both Bill Wisemans creations (as well as his own custom actions). But I'm not sure what they needed help designing when it's so close to the sako they copied to begin with.

[Full Curl Earl]

What are the 4 pieces brazed together on a Remington Bolt? The handles are of course, so that’s 2. Factory triggers are what they are, no one chooses an action based on the factory trigger for a custom build.
My preference is Remington, are they perfect? No, but after truing, they shoot lights out.

Originally Posted by brno284

The Howa is a superior action in my mind. 1 pc forced bolt not 4 pieces brazed together. Superior extraction system, still encloses the the cartridge with 3 rings less the extractor cut, easy twist and turn no tool firing pin removal, integral recoil lug, Fast lock time. Triggers are marginal and Remington tuned has them beat, not slagging the Remingtons or clones as I am a big fan but $ for $ you can give me a Howa anyday. The stainless ones are becoming scarce and I would snap them up any chance I get. The bottom metal is also much heavier than Remington so unless you blind box the Remington will save you ounces there. Not crazy about the metric threads on Howa but I usually recut the action screws to 28 TPI and the action threads to 16TPI when I true them.

I regularily slab the Howas so weights for a build are similar, less the bottom metal of course.

As far as a comparison to the Sako they are better in most ways, superior extractor, integral recoil lug, no guide rib which does nothing. It is a simple, strong action that is very well made with sound metalurgy and design! Whats not to like. I would give you more for a Howa anyday for a custom build, its great that folks are in the dark about them as it keeps the prices down!!

Just my 2 bits FWIW

[brno284]

And for the record there is at least 5 pieces in a Remington bolt.

1)bolt head
2)bolt body
3)bolt handle
4)there is a washer between the head and body which acts as the bottom of the ejector hole
5)there is a cross pin that goes through one side of the bolt head/bolt body union.

The Howa when trued will also shoot lights out......... I think I said I do like Remington...... Not seeing where I said someone chooses a trigger for a custom build.......

[Full Curl Earl]

You sure your not thinking Savage?
I machine many Remington bolts, there are no cross bolts, washers, separate bolt heads, your mistaken Brno.
Only pointing out that the quality of a stock trigger has no bearing on a custom rifle build.

Originally Posted by brno284

And for the record there is at least 5 pieces in a Remington bolt.

1)bolt head
2)bolt body
3)bolt handle
4)there is a washer between the head and body which acts as the bottom of the ejector hole
5)there is a cross pin that goes through one side of the bolt head/bolt body union.

The Howa when trued will also shoot lights out......... I think I said I do like Remington...... Not seeing where I said someone chooses a trigger for a custom build.......

[double gun]

Originally Posted by brno284

And for the record there is at least 5 pieces in a Remington bolt.

1)bolt head
2)bolt body
3)bolt handle
4)there is a washer between the head and body which acts as the bottom of the ejector hole
5)there is a cross pin that goes through one side of the bolt head/bolt body union.

Correct.
Below are two sectioned Remington bolts. First pic you can see the cross pin, and how the washer serves as the bottom of the ejector hole. Second picture the bolt head/bolt body union is slightly more visible.

[David Henry]

Thanks Double Gun for the pictures, I learned something new today. D.H.

[Stinky Coyote]

sure seeing quite a few weatherby vanguards(howa action with proper bottom metal) being restocked in mcmillan sako classic pattern and have to admit i'm liking this idea a lot

not as an ultralight build, not heavy either, but a do all standard hunting rifle

[brno284]

You sure your not thinking Savage?
I machine many Remington bolts, there are no cross bolts, washers, separate bolt heads, your mistaken Brno.



I machine them too!!!! Looks like your mistaken Earl!!!!

[brno284]

Thanks for the pics double gun mine are not as clear as yours!! As they say a picture is worth a thousand words.

[Big Sky]

Question about the metric threads.
Do they pose any problems for gunsmiths?
Would some smiths choose not to work on an action with metric threads?

[Big Sky]

I'm a regular shooter at my range and I don't remember ever seeing a rifle built off of a Howa or Vanguard action. I do see lots of rebarreled and restocked Remingtons.
Just how common are custom Howa's?
Anyone on here with a custom Howa or Vanguard?

[Full Curl Earl]

Looks like I am mistaken. Where are the pics from? Are they current production?
I searched Remington itself but found nothing. I am not able to see the cross bolt in the pics either. It is obviously a well designed bolt, as I’ve never seen one fail, and we get some really distorted bolts in here from over charged loads.
Are these your bolts that you sectioned or off the net?
Appreciate the lesson.