Vaccinations don't cause autism

[bossmansteve]

Originally Posted by AndrewM

May be worth researching how many people in the world die to Diphtheria. Whooping cough (pertussis) Tetanus, Polio, Pneumococcal Disease, Rotavirus, Meningococcal Disease, Mumps, Measles, Rubella.

Almost nobody dies of those diseases in Canada.

Originally Posted by AndrewM

This isn't about tolerating a different opinion. This is about people who knowingly risk other people's lives.

There is risk inherent in life. Earth isn't a bubble-wrapped safe zone. Everyone engages in activities that increase the risk to others.

Originally Posted by AndrewM

You look a parent in the eyes who just lost a child due to a preventable disease because their child was too young to get immunized and see how it makes you feel.

I'm not a bleeding heart so this kind of argument isn't going to sway me. Life is full of tragedies that people have to deal with. It always will be and these tragedies actually give a lot more meaning and value to life than if it was a safe zone.

Originally Posted by AndrewM

How about those set of parents who let their child die because they didn't believe in medicine?

They got very unlucky and their child died. It's a tragedy for those parents. I think it's sick that people want to punish them for it on top of that.

Originally Posted by AndrewM

Since you are against vaccinations, I assume you are against all medicine or do you pick and choose?

We don't use any pharmaceutical drugs to alleviate discomfort, but we would take medicine within reason to deal with serious issues (eg. antibiotics are needed if you have a dangerous bacterial infection).

[YYC338]

Originally Posted by bossmansteve

One interesting theory is that the aluminum adjuvants used in most vaccines may cause health problems including autism. It's theorized (and there is some evidence demonstrating) that the injected aluminum is not quickly or easily excreted by the body and can get into the brain. Note that MMR, which is the only vaccine studied in the OP's research, is one of the vaccines that does not use an aluminum adjvant.

We did not vaccinate our children as we do not trust the government and pharmaceutical companies (given their terrible historical record) to be correct and honest when they claim that vaccines are safe. And that is what it largely boils down to. Nor do we believe something just because the majority of other people drank the kool-aid. Respectively, these are called appeal to authority and appeal to popularity and both are fallacies.

It is unfortunate that the mainstream consensus is that those who opt out of vaccines are idiots who should die or be imprisoned and are not worthy of any respect. We live in a very polarized world where people cannot tolerate anyone having a different opinion than them anymore and have a strong desire to control or punish everyone they disagree with. If these people disagree with you on politics you are a "racist" or a "nazi", if they disagree with you on vaccines you are "anti-science", if they disagree with you on climate change you are a "denier", if they disagree with you on immigration you are "islamophobic", etc.

Conveniently, the way to destroy the people you disagree with is always by giving more and more power to the government. I wonder where this will lead.

God forbid, but if one of your children were ever to contract one of the diseases or illnesses that have been demonstrated they would have been protected from by vaccination, would you seek out help from the same medical people that recommended the children be vaccinated?

If so, would you accept responsibility to incur the cost of that treatment yourself or would you expect it to be covered by taxpayer dollars through the government funded health care system?

Just curious

[GENINC]

Originally Posted by YYC338

God forbid, but if one of your children were ever to contract one of the diseases or illnesses that have been demonstrated they would have been protected from by vaccination, would you seek out help from the same medical people that recommended the children be vaccinated?

If so, would you accept responsibility to incur the cost of that treatment yourself or would you expect it to be covered by taxpayer dollars through the government funded health care system?

Just curious

Don't you get it, he's smarter than all the doctors and researchers and all us sheeple. He's gonna heal his kids with tea and magic stones.
That's why we can't have nice things, because of dumb hicks like that. Oh well, at least it's entertaining, like the flat earth movement.

[bossmansteve]

Originally Posted by YYC338

God forbid, but if one of your children were ever to contract one of the diseases or illnesses that have been demonstrated they would have been protected from by vaccination, would you seek out help from the same medical people that recommended the children be vaccinated?

If so, would you accept responsibility to incur the cost of that treatment yourself or would you expect it to be covered by taxpayer dollars through the government funded health care system?

Just curious

I pay high enough taxes that, yes, I would try to get the government to pay for any treatment I needed.

My preference would be to have a small government and a private health care system, but obviously that's not the reality.

[Jamie]

Originally Posted by bossmansteve

Almost nobody dies of those diseases in Canada.


There is risk inherent in life. Earth isn't a bubble-wrapped safe zone. Everyone engages in activities that increase the risk to others.


I'm not a bleeding heart so this kind of argument isn't going to sway me. Life is full of tragedies that people have to deal with. It always will be and these tragedies actually give a lot more meaning and value to life than if it was a safe zone.


They got very unlucky and their child died. It's a tragedy for those parents. I think it's sick that people want to punish them for it on top of that.


We don't use any pharmaceutical drugs to alleviate discomfort, but we would take medicine within reason to deal with serious issues (eg. antibiotics are needed if you have a dangerous bacterial infection).

Congrats, this is one of the most spectacular posts in the history of A/O... These vaccinations should be mandatory in order for any kid to walk the street.

[AndrewM]

Originally Posted by bossmansteve

Almost nobody dies of those diseases in Canada.


There is risk inherent in life. Earth isn't a bubble-wrapped safe zone. Everyone engages in activities that increase the risk to others.


I'm not a bleeding heart so this kind of argument isn't going to sway me. Life is full of tragedies that people have to deal with. It always will be and these tragedies actually give a lot more meaning and value to life than if it was a safe zone.


They got very unlucky and their child died. It's a tragedy for those parents. I think it's sick that people want to punish them for it on top of that.


We don't use any pharmaceutical drugs to alleviate discomfort, but we would take medicine within reason to deal with serious issues (eg. antibiotics are needed if you have a dangerous bacterial infection).

You sum'd up who you are perfectly. Ironic that you have no concern about risk to others yet you don't want to risk your child getting autism. Funny how you say nobody dies from these diseases in Canada yet the only reason for that is immunization!

[YYC338]

Originally Posted by bossmansteve

I pay high enough taxes that, yes, I would try to get the government to pay for any treatment I needed.

My preference would be to have a small government and a private health care system, but obviously that's not the reality.

So you would trust the skills and knowledge of the medical professionals for treatment if one of your children contracted a preventable disease due to not being vaccinated against it, yet you won't trust their skills and knowledge when they recommend vaccinations?

You would also expect the government (taxpayers) to pay for the results of your conscious decision to not vaccinate when, due to an aging population the healthcare care cost burden will continue to rise dramatically even without adding costs associated with treating diseases that were easily preventable by vaccination (statistically proven obviously)

Is it me or does this not seem logical to others?

[thing]

My wife is an RN at the Stollery and has been for over 20 yrs. Some of you need to swing by for a visit a see what is ACTUALLY happening in the hospital.

These poor children, their issues are 100% preventable by vaccines....but no. Children suffer, live with life long problems even after they leave, and in some cases..........

All this because someone watched a youtube video, read something on facebook or knows someone or who knows someone decides that vaccines are dangerous.

To those of you against vaccinations....I wonder what percentage of Doctors and Nurses aren't vaccinated? what about their children? Do you think they choose to not vaccinate their son/daughter or do you think their children are vaccinated? These are people that deal with real world repercussions, consequences. They're on the front line. These are the people I trust, and you should too.

[bossmansteve]

Originally Posted by GENINC

Don't you get it, he's smarter than all the doctors and researchers and all us sheeple. He's gonna heal his kids with tea and magic stones.
That's why we can't have nice things, because of dumb hicks like that. Oh well, at least it's entertaining, like the flat earth movement.

It's interesting that the "dumb" people always think they are smarter than others. I wonder if there's some irony in what you're saying here.

Really unfortunate that the "dumb" people are the cause of your life not being better.

Originally Posted by Jamie

These vaccinations should be mandatory in order for any kid to walk the street.

Just be careful about what you ask the government to force on others, as I'm sure there are many things others are asking to have forced on you that you wouldn't be too happy about.

Originally Posted by AndrewM

You sum'd up who you are perfectly. Ironic that you have no concern about risk to others yet you don't want to risk your child getting autism.

I care about my own child far more than I care about strangers. Nothing ironic there.

[Donkey Oatey]

I got a new coffee cup. Where can I fill it up?

[bossmansteve]

Originally Posted by YYC338

So you would trust the skills and knowledge of the medical professionals for treatment if one of your children contracted a preventable disease due to not being vaccinated against it, yet you won't trust their skills and knowledge when they recommend vaccinations?

I trust doctors do be relatively competent at what they were trained for: diagnosing and administering treatment for general health problems. But they aren't perfect so I don't blindly trust them, I research myself to double check. It's my own health at stake.

The vast majority of doctors have no specialized training on the details of vaccines and do not follow the scientific literature on the subject. Their "recommendation" is literally just passing along the recommendation given to them by the governmental bodies who set it. So no, I don't look to them for a recommendation on vaccines.

Originally Posted by YYC338

You would also expect the government (taxpayers) to pay for the results of your conscious decision to not vaccinate when, due to an aging population the healthcare care cost burden will continue to rise dramatically even without adding costs associated with treating diseases that were easily preventable by vaccination (statistically proven obviously)

Is it me or does this not seem logical to others?

We live in a country where we are highly taxed and our tax dollars are wasted in a million ways. I would heavily reform the system if I could, but I can't and so I live within it. In all cases, yes, I would try to recover my tax dollars by getting the government to pay for something, if possible.

[AndrewM]

Originally Posted by bossmansteve

I care about my own child far more than I care about strangers. Nothing ironic there.

Sorry I will be more clear with the point I wanted to get across. You care about autism for your kids based on nothing yet you don't care about the preventable diseases your children could get based on historical fact. For your sake, I hope it doesn't come back to bite you.

[260 Rem]

Just back from the getting the 30th flu shot in my life...all good so far, never been diagnosed on the autism spectrum.

[bossmansteve]

Originally Posted by thing

To those of you against vaccinations....I wonder what percentage of Doctors and Nurses aren't vaccinated?

Doctors and nurses have a much higher exposure to pathogens. In fact, they are probably required to be vaccinated as a condition of their employment.

Originally Posted by thing

what about their children? Do you think they choose to not vaccinate their son/daughter or do you think their children are vaccinated? These are people that deal with real world repercussions, consequences. They're on the front line. These are the people I trust, and you should too.

Interesting question but is there any actual research on this or are you just asking us to speculate?

I will note that doctors' children are also at higher risk of exposure to pathogens, so that might encourage higher vaccination rates.

[AndrewM]

Originally Posted by bossmansteve

The vast majority of doctors have no specialized training on the details of vaccines and do not follow the scientific literature on the subject. Their "recommendation" is literally just passing along the recommendation given to them by the governmental bodies who set it. So no, I don't look to them for a recommendation on vaccines.

You are talking in circles. You don't trust educated people because they are uneducated yet you trust uneducated people. Government wants a high autism rate for what reasons?

[MLayden]

[QUOTE=bossmansteve;4037536]
It is unfortunate that the mainstream consensus is that those who opt out of vaccines are idiots who should die or be imprisoned and are not worthy of any respect. We live in a very polarized world where people cannot tolerate anyone having a different opinion than them anymore and have a strong desire to control or punish everyone they disagree with. If these people disagree with you on politics you are a "racist" or a "nazi", if they disagree with you on vaccines you are "anti-science", if they disagree with you on climate change you are a "denier", if they disagree with you on immigration you are "islamophobic", etc.
[QUOTE]

This...and everyone is proving his point.

This subject is the only acceptable form of bullying in todays society.

[bossmansteve]

Originally Posted by AndrewM

Sorry I will be more clear with the point I wanted to get across. You care about autism for your kids based on nothing yet you don't care about the preventable diseases your children could get based on historical fact. For your sake, I hope it doesn't come back to bite you.

Good question. Two things.

First, I fear the unknown more than the known. The risk of my child dying from one of these diseases is small. The risk of negative effects from vaccines, such as aluminum accumulating in their brain is unknown. I pick the small risk over the unknown risk.

Second thing is that I actually don't believe death is the worst outcome. I believe death is natural, coming to all of us, and to some weaker and less well-adapted people it rightfully comes sooner than to others. I would rather have 1/4 of my children die and the other 3/4 be amazing people, for example, than have 4/4 survive with chronic health problems. Quality over quantity. I don't subscribe to the dogma that all humans are equal or that every single human ought to survive at all cost.

[pikergolf]

Originally Posted by bossmansteve

Good question. Two things.

First, I fear the unknown more than the known. The risk of my child dying from one of these diseases is small. The risk of negative effects from vaccines, such as aluminum accumulating in their brain is unknown. I pick the small risk over the unknown risk.

Second thing is that I actually don't believe death is the worst outcome. I believe death is natural, coming to all of us, and to some weaker and less well-adapted people it rightfully comes sooner than to others. I would rather have 1/4 of my children die and the other 3/4 be amazing people, for example, than have 4/4 survive with chronic health problems. Quality over quantity. I don't subscribe to the dogma that all humans are equal or that every single human ought to survive at all cost.

This is all starting to sound familiar, what was your last handle again?

[AndrewM]

Originally Posted by bossmansteve

Good question. Two things.

First, I fear the unknown more than the known. The risk of my child dying from one of these diseases is small. The risk of negative effects from vaccines, such as aluminum accumulating in their brain is unknown. I pick the small risk over the unknown risk.

Second thing is that I actually don't believe death is the worst outcome. I believe death is natural, coming to all of us, and to some weaker and less well-adapted people it rightfully comes sooner than to others. I would rather have 1/4 of my children die and the other 3/4 be amazing people, for example, than have 4/4 survive with chronic health problems. Quality over quantity. I don't subscribe to the dogma that all humans are equal or that every single human ought to survive at all cost.

Zero risk of you getting into a vehicle accident if you stay home yet I am willing to bet you drive. Zero risk of skin cancer due to sun if you stay inside yet I am willing to bet you go outside.
Probably shouldn't take any medicines or ever see a doctor as that just means you are weak.
I have friends who have children with autism, down sydrome, cerebral palsy etc. They wouldn't exchange their child for the world.

[AndrewM]

[QUOTE=MLayden;4037796][QUOTE=bossmansteve;4037536]
It is unfortunate that the mainstream consensus is that those who opt out of vaccines are idiots who should die or be imprisoned and are not worthy of any respect. We live in a very polarized world where people cannot tolerate anyone having a different opinion than them anymore and have a strong desire to control or punish everyone they disagree with. If these people disagree with you on politics you are a "racist" or a "nazi", if they disagree with you on vaccines you are "anti-science", if they disagree with you on climate change you are a "denier", if they disagree with you on immigration you are "islamophobic", etc.

This...and everyone is proving his point.

This subject is the only acceptable form of bullying in todays society.

Nope I am sure the majority would argue against impaired driving the exact same way.

[bossmansteve]

Originally Posted by AndrewM

Government wants a high autism rate for what reasons?

They don't. They are just under a lot of pressure to approve vaccines (so disease incidence will be lower for the masses and profit will be higher for the companies and lobbyists) and safety ends up being skimped on. Governments do what they can to try to get re-elected.

Society itself is made up of more liberal and more conservative people. The more liberal people are more willing to explore the unknown and take new risks, while the more conservative people want to stay safe and stick with what they know. As long as things like vaccines are optional, both groups can do what they want and are happy.

[AndrewM]

Originally Posted by bossmansteve

They don't. They are just under a lot of pressure to approve vaccines (so disease incidence will be lower for the masses and profit will be higher for the companies and lobbyists) and safety ends up being skimped on. Governments do what they can to try to get re-elected.

Society itself is made up of more liberal and more conservative people. The more liberal people are more willing to explore the unknown and take new risks, while the more conservative people want to stay safe and stick with what they know. As long as things like vaccines are optional, both groups can do what they want and are happy.

This is where I see your reasoning goes wrong. Wouldn't the companies make more money selling treatments rather than preventing it in the first place? It is like selling a light bulb that lasts a life time. Not much money to be made selling it once.

[YYC338]

Originally Posted by bossmansteve

I trust doctors do be relatively competent at what they were trained for: diagnosing and administering treatment for general health problems. But they aren't perfect so I don't blindly trust them, I research myself to double check. It's my own health at stake.

The vast majority of doctors have no specialized training on the details of vaccines and do not follow the scientific literature on the subject. Their "recommendation" is literally just passing along the recommendation given to them by the governmental bodies who set it. So no, I don't look to them for a recommendation on vaccines.

And you are qualified to speak on matters of doctor competency and can distinguish quality scientific literature from junk literature as well as have specific knowledge that doctors just blindly pass along governmental recommendations without applying any of their past training and knowledge because ...... you graduated from Google University with honors or have some other "specialized training on the details of vaccines"?

[crazy_davey]

Originally Posted by bossmansteve

They got very unlucky and their child died. It's a tragedy for those parents. I think it's sick that people want to punish them for it on top of that.

And this past visit to the courtroom, they walked out with big smiles on their faces.

[bossmansteve]

Originally Posted by pikergolf

This is all starting to sound familiar, what was your last handle again?

Something with steve in the name, couldn't remember it when I switched to a new computer so I registered a new one.

Originally Posted by AndrewM

Zero risk of you getting into a vehicle accident if you stay home yet I am willing to bet you drive. Zero risk of skin cancer due to sun if you stay inside yet I am willing to bet you go outside.
Probably shouldn't take any medicines or ever see a doctor as that just means you are weak.

Risk and reward have to be balanced. This is a very personal equation.

Originally Posted by AndrewM

I have friends who have children with autism, down sydrome, cerebral palsy etc. They wouldn't exchange their child for the world.

That's a luxury of living in the 21st century. If it gives your life meaning then all the power to you. Personally, I see no value in taking care of handicapped kids, but I won't try to stop you from doing it.

Originally Posted by AndrewM

Nope I am sure the majority would argue against impaired driving the exact same way.

In my view there is an important distinction between preventing someone from doing something and forcing someone to do something.

[Scott h]

"I trust doctors do be relatively competent at what they were trained for: diagnosing and administering treatment for general health problems. But they aren't perfect so I don't blindly trust them, I research myself to double check. It's my own health at stake."
Sorry but what you call "researching" is actually called "Googling".....It's really not the same thing.

[bossmansteve]

Originally Posted by YYC338

And you are qualified to speak on matters of doctor competency and can distinguish quality scientific literature from junk literature as well as have specific knowledge that doctors just blindly pass along governmental recommendations without applying any of their past training and knowledge because ...... you graduated from Google University with honors or have some other "specialized training on the details of vaccines"?

It's common sense that doctors make mistakes and some are more competent than others. Ask your doctor where they get their recommendations from: if every doctor personally studied the latest research in vaccine science to form their own recommendation, or if it comes from a higher body.

Qualifications are an appeal to authority. You tell me what qualifications you think someone should have for you to listen to them. I'm guessing they have to be endorsed by your favorite government and part of the mainstream consensus of opinion.

[Scott h]

"That's a luxury of living in the 21st century. If it gives your life meaning then all the power to you. Personally, I see no value in taking care of handicapped kids, but I won't try to stop you from doing it."

Wasn't there a guy back in the 40's with that same theory ?????

[AndrewM]

Originally Posted by bossmansteve

Personally, I see no value in taking care of handicapped kids, but I won't try to stop you from doing it.

Wow.

[bat119]

I just wave a decapitated chicken over where it hurts what does modern science know, like all this round earth nonsense if the earth was round all the water would run off duh!