Caged Hunt farms on the table again?

[Torkdiesel]

Originally Posted by calgarychef

You know .... the fianancial gain for a few individuals just isn’t worth the overall risk for these operations. So what if it brings even $5 million into the economy. That’s peanuts and it’s just not worth it.

It would bring a lot more into the economy then that, eventually anyway.

And no farmers won’t want you to pay them $15,000 for a wild elk standing in their field, that’s just ludicrous.

I realize high fenced hunting isn’t for you and you look down on it because you’re a real hunter, unless it’s a wild boar then for some reason it’s ok lol

I swear sometimes I wonder if some of you guys read the stuff you post and think twice about how it comes across 🙁


If you’re worried about CWD make the rancher double fence the entire farm and electrify the outer perimeter fence. Then nothing will ever get out.
I’ve seen plenty of these set ups in South Africa, when they want to keep game in its entirely possible. Cape Buffalo and Sable breeding pens are perfect examples.

[curtis_rak]

Ive never done a high fence hunt and probably won’t because of the cost and I personally feel that it would be harder for me to brag to my buddies about my trophy kill under those circumstances than if I kill a deer on open, wild land.

I personally know an owner of a large part of the former King Ranch in Texas - now called the La Puerta Ranch. It’s 4000acres. I’ve been to the property and Its vast to say the least but with the assistance of stands and feeders you will get a 140” deer for just under $6000 cdn. If you want the deer of a lifetime it will cost probably 20k. It’s an interesting and lucrative business. That said, I am not ethically opposed to it whatsoever. If people want to do it go right ahead. It’s been mentioned here that the beef industry is really no different when you boil it down, just a different type of animal.

I’m also not opposed to pay for access. It was already said here by someone else- lots of Crown land to hunt on for those who don’t want to pay and lots of landowners who would still give free access regardless. So who cares.

My only concern about hunt farms would be disease spread but I don’t know enough about that aspect of it in the various states and provinces in North America that allow it. But again when you look at the beef industry we have seen catastrophic disease spreads that have cost tens of billions of dollars worldwide. There were also a crap load of minks that caught Covid at fur farms - they were all culled and no one batted an eye. Whose to say that our penned in beef, pork and chicken won’t be affected either.

We also have no issue with fishing for trout from stocked ponds in the midst of a serious whirling disease outbreak. We started that mess too and that’s kinda like a fenced hunt...

My point is there are many ways to look at some of these things. If fenced hints became a thing here, if it was regulated properly CWD could be prevented and it would have no effect on the average “traditional” hunter.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

[bdub]

Originally Posted by Torkdiesel

It would bring a lot more into the economy then that, eventually anyway.

The Alberta beef industry employs close to 60000 people and generates around 20 billion in economic activity in the province. We have been extremely stupid in risking that over farming game animals, I can't imagine it is even being considered again. The hairbrained notion should be eliminated entirely forever. It's just mind boggling.

[Torkdiesel]

Originally Posted by bdub

The Alberta beef industry employs close to 60000 people and generates around 20 billion in economic activity in the province. We have been extremely stupid in risking that over farming game animals, I can't imagine it is even being considered again. The hairbrained notion should be eliminated entirely forever. It's just mind boggling.

Deer and elk can give CWD to cows ?

[58thecat]

Originally Posted by bdub

The Alberta beef industry employs close to 60000 people and generates around 20 billion in economic activity in the province. We have been extremely stupid in risking that over farming game animals, I can't imagine it is even being considered again. The hairbrained notion should be eliminated entirely forever. It's just mind boggling.

but if it is highly regulated beyond belief then why not....jeepers we really gotta evolve at some point...or we all would be carrying Winchester 30/30 cuz...yup...cuz...not that that's a bad thing but you get what I am saying eh?

[bdub]

Originally Posted by Torkdiesel

Deer and elk can give CWD to cows ?

Did I say that CWD can be spread from deer and elk to cattle???

Is CWD the only disease we should be worried about???

[bdub]

Originally Posted by 58thecat

but if it is highly regulated beyond belief then why not....jeepers we really gotta evolve at some point...or we all would be carrying Winchester 30/30 cuz...yup...cuz...not that that's a bad thing but you get what I am saying eh?

Why do we have carp in our waters? I think that was regulated too eh.

[Torkdiesel]

Originally Posted by bdub

Did I say that CWD can be spread from deer and elk to cattle???

Is CWD the only disease we should be worried about???

No, you made a statement about game farms endangering the cattle industry.

I’ve never heard this before. I thought perhaps you’d heard about an instance of a game farm animal passing on CWD to cattle. Since that doesn’t appear to be the case can you share what disease we should be worried about ?

The last thing I’d want to happen is have a game farm endanger the cattle industry !
I mean Texas seems to be doing ok with both, for that matter there’s 20 or so other states with both beef/dairy industry and high fenced game farms. How are they managing to have both ?

[bdub]

Originally Posted by Torkdiesel

No, you made a statement about game farms endangering the cattle industry.

I’ve never heard this before. I thought perhaps you’d heard about an instance of a game farm animal passing on CWD to cattle. Since that doesn’t appear to be the case can you share what disease we should be worried about ?

The last thing I’d want to happen is have a game farm endanger the cattle industry !
I mean Texas seems to be doing ok with both, for that matter there’s 20 or so other states with both beef/dairy industry and high fenced game farms. How are they managing to have both ?

CWD and BSE are the most worrisome from a human perspective. They don't know much about them or how they cross over from animals to humans. Now we have to worry about eating deer meat here?!

Tuberculosis, brucellosis, anthrax, swine fever, foot and mouth, I don't know... I'm sure you know how to use the google like the rest of us.

Tell me why they don't have much of a beef industry in Africa? What problems have they faced?

Is a segment of the outfitting industry pushing for this Tork? Wouldn't surprise me to much and would explain your support for a bad idea.

[Pioneer2]

Got CWD here in Alberta from Saskatchewan game farms?

[Torkdiesel]

Originally Posted by bdub

CWD and BSE are the most worrisome from a human perspective. They don't know much about them or how they cross over from animals to humans. Now we have to worry about eating deer meat here?!

Tuberculosis, brucellosis, anthrax, swine fever, foot and mouth, I don't know... I'm sure you know how to use the google like the rest of us.

Tell me why they don't have much of a beef industry in Africa? What problems have they faced?

Is a segment of the outfitting industry pushing for this Tork? Wouldn't surprise me to much and would explain your support for a bad idea.

Sorry. When you said it would endanger our cattle industry I thought you actually had knowledge that it would actually endanger our cattle industry. My mistake

You evidently need to do some research about Africa’s cattle industry as well. South Africa for example has by far the largest high fenced Industry in the world, they also currently produce close to 5 times the cattle we do in Alberta, their dairy industry is 20 times the size of ours. Somehow they keep it going without losing it all to disease.

I’m an advocate of anything safe and profitable industry wise, regardless of what it is. Shooting a deer in a 50 foot round pen, not really hunting no. But we kill cows in a squeeze so really what does it matter. Shooting an elk on 500 acres of bush ? Whatever floats your boat.
Don’t like it, don’t do it.

As for whether other outfitters support high fenced hunting or not, you’d have to ask them.

[bdub]

Originally Posted by Torkdiesel

You evidently need to do some research about Africa’s cattle industry as well. South Africa for example has by far the largest high fenced Industry in the world, they also currently produce close to 5 times the cattle we do in Alberta, their dairy industry is 20 times the size of ours. Somehow they keep it going without losing it all to disease.

Here are some facts on South Africa's cattle industry Tork.

Dairy herd
CAD 886,000
USA 9,932,000
SA 610,000

Beef Herd
CAD 11.35 million / Alberta 4.45 million
USA 94.8 million
SA 13.8 million

Beef exports ton’s/CAD$
CAD 438,641 worth $3.2 billion CAD$
SA 32,000 worth $117 million CAD$ (at .084 SA Rand To CAD$

I love your line about advocating for anything safe and profitable. Profitable for whom?

The game farming industry in Canada has proven to be neither safe of profitable. Taxpayers have spent millions bailing out the failed sector, we now have to worry about eating wild deer, elk and moose. What sounded like a great idea years ago that has turned into a gongshow.

[Torkdiesel]

Originally Posted by bdub

Here are some facts on South Africa's cattle industry Tork.

Dairy herd
CAD 886,000
USA 9,932,000
SA 610,000

Beef Herd
CAD 11.35 million / Alberta 4.45 million
USA 94.8 million
SA 13.8 million

Beef exports ton’s/CAD$
CAD 438,641 worth $3.2 billion CAD$
SA 32,000 worth $117 million CAD$ (at .084 SA Rand To CAD$

I love your line about advocating for anything safe and profitable. Profitable for whom?

The game farming industry in Canada has proven to be neither safe of profitable. Taxpayers have spent millions bailing out the failed sector, we now have to worry about eating wild deer, elk and moose. What sounded like a great idea years ago that has turned into a gongshow.

Since you were talking about Alberta, I used Alberta’s numbers compared to South Africa where you said there was hardly any cattle industry. We aren’t talking about game farms in the rest of Canada, although your numbers still line up with mine and prove there’s more of a cattle industry in South Africa, regardless if they export or utilize the meat themselves.
The game farms are profitable to those invested in the industry, and I’m sure most are safe. That being said I’m not opposed to making further safeguards mandatory.

So other then you don’t like it, I’m still waiting for the danger these high fenced farms pose to our cattle industry? Listing off a generic list of diseases which you have no clue about or their affect on cattle then saying just google it and find them yourself is a weak argument.

Or just say I don’t like it so nobody else should be allowed to do it !

If you’re going to come up with a reason at least state your evidence. Not fallacies like South Africa doesn’t have a cattle industry because they have high fenced farms, even your own numbers proved that statement was a joke

[Dean2]

Whether South Africa has issues with their hunt farms is kind of irrelevant. What is at issue here is the wild animal farms here in Canada have LOTs of issues. Many countries now ban the importation of both meat and antler products from Canadian Cervids. No one will buy meat, antler or velvet because of CWD. It has spread into the wild game now and is running rampant. Tuberculosis in the deer, Bison and Elk populations is transmissible to cattle, and humans. Blue tongue is transmissible to both sheep and cattle and has been found in game farm animals. Foot and mouth is another one found in game farms. That names just a few common ones and all those diseases have been found in Canadian farmed game animals, which were then destroyed but compensated to the farmer from the tax payer to the tune of millions of dollars.

I really don't care if people want to shoot animals in a pen, but I certainly object to farmers being paid for losses while threatening both wild populations and livestock. A hard no to farmed game because Canadian producers have clearly demonstrated that they CANNOT do it safely.

[marky_mark]

Do most people realize that currently, a vast majority of the animals shot in Saskatchewan game farms, are raised in Alberta?

Not sure what the difference would be if they were also “hunted” here

[Dean2]

Originally Posted by marky_mark

Do most people realize that currently, a vast majority of the animals shot in Saskatchewan game farms, are raised in Alberta?

Not sure what the difference would be if they were also “hunted” here

I do, but I also know there have been a fair number of these operators convicted of trapping Wild game to put onto game farms. This is precisely why I think the whole game farm industry needs to be shut down all across Canada. Abuse in many forms is widespread, rampant and getting worse.

[bdub]

Originally Posted by Torkdiesel

Since you were talking about Alberta, I used Alberta’s numbers compared to South Africa where you said there was hardly any cattle industry. We aren’t talking about game farms in the rest of Canada, although your numbers still line up with mine and prove there’s more of a cattle industry in South Africa, regardless if they export or utilize the meat themselves.
The game farms are profitable to those invested in the industry, and I’m sure most are safe. That being said I’m not opposed to making further safeguards mandatory.

So other then you don’t like it, I’m still waiting for the danger these high fenced farms pose to our cattle industry? Listing off a generic list of diseases which you have no clue about or their affect on cattle then saying just google it and find them yourself is a weak argument.

Or just say I don’t like it so nobody else should be allowed to do it !

If you’re going to come up with a reason at least state your evidence. Not fallacies like South Africa doesn’t have a cattle industry because they have high fenced farms, even your own numbers proved that statement was a joke

First off I never said South Africa in the original post. I said Africa, the continent. South Africa was your comment so I dug up the information on that country, which doesn’t rank on in the top eight on either production or exports. Your numbers don’t line up.

I also don’t care whether you get your jollies shooting a penned animal. I care more about the effect of stupid policy decisions affecting wildlife, industry, my wallet and my health here, not halfway around the world in a some shole country.

[FCLightning]

Originally Posted by Dean2

I do, but I also know there have been a fair number of these operators convicted of trapping Wild game to put onto game farms.

You mean aside from all the ones that they were given by the gov't to help get established?

[Big Grey Wolf]

Few years few PC members started raising elk in pens. Then when herds were built up they brought in wild game farms. They made tons of money $$ as price of cow elk breeding stock went through the roof.
Now we have CWD in half of Alberta and the PC boys fled to the hills with all their $$$. I guess history is going to repeat itself with a new gang of thieves.

[FCLightning]

Originally Posted by Big Grey Wolf

Few years few PC members started raising elk in pens. Then when herds were built up they brought in wild game farms. They made tons of money $$ as price of cow elk breeding stock went through the roof.
Now we have CWD in half of Alberta and the PC boys fled to the hills with all their $$$. I guess history is going to repeat itself with a new gang of thieves.

Yup, we had one of those here - had a bunch of elk on the place before it was legalized.

[marky_mark]

Originally Posted by Dean2

I do, but I also know there have been a fair number of these operators convicted of trapping Wild game to put onto game farms. This is precisely why I think the whole game farm industry needs to be shut down all across Canada. Abuse in many forms is widespread, rampant and getting worse.

Not sure why anyone would trap wild animals to put them in a pen these days. The bigger ones are already behind the fence

[Springer]

My 2 cents
I think Game Ranch High fence hunts should stay in Saskatchewan.
I have hunted High fence in Texas for a couple days and i have Hunted High fence Hogs in Saskatchewan. I had fun both times but doubt i would ever want to hunt Elk behind a high fence. So i have experienced the challenges on a High fence hunt all done with my Bow.

We already have Elk farms in Alberta right now and lots get shipped to Saskatchewan, so the Elk farms already exist here even if their not getting hunted here.

Someone mentioned a Double fence so there will be no contact with outside animals.Well lots of Coyotes, Fox, rabbits , Ravens , crows whatever can still get in the pens and eat anything that may perish in there , or even our feathered friends that eat their feces then leave have the possibility of spreading any disease ~ prions outside that fence.

Cheers.

[Dean2]

Originally Posted by marky_mark

Not sure why anyone would trap wild animals to put them in a pen these days. The bigger ones are already behind the fence

They weren't trapping bulls. Cow Elk were the primary targets and this happened before the crash in game prices when cow Elk were selling for as high as $15,000 a pop. At the height of the craze there were Cow Elk selling for nearly a $100,000 each. Reminded me of the great Tulip disaster. There was no shortage of guys looking to add "free breeding stock".

[Salavee]

Originally Posted by Big Grey Wolf

Few years few PC members started raising elk in pens. Then when herds were built up they brought in wild game farms. They made tons of money $$ as price of cow elk breeding stock went through the roof.
Now we have CWD in half of Alberta and the PC boys fled to the hills with all their $$$. I guess history is going to repeat itself with a new gang of thieves.

True.

The first Elk were obtained from wild stock. When it came to selling them , there was no established market price so a hard core of Original Game Farmers (mostly PC MLA's) got their s--- together and formed an Auction. That established a firm, pre-meditated, open market price. As I recall that price was $7000,00 for a breeding cow. St Paul comes to mind as the location of that auction, not quite sure. The price of that original $7000.00 cow quickly rose to a bit over $ 20,000. I can recall buying 4 cows for butcher much later on for $100.00 each. A few made a lot of money playing that game.

[marky_mark]

Originally Posted by Salavee

True.

The first Elk were obtained from wild stock. When it came to selling them , there was no established market price so a hard core of Original Game Farmers (mostly PC MLA's) got their s--- together and formed an Auction. That established a firm, pre-meditated, open market price. As I recall that price was $7000,00 for a breeding cow. St Paul comes to mind as the location of that auction, not quite sure. The price of that original $7000.00 cow quickly rose to a bit over $ 20,000. I can recall buying 4 cows for butcher much later on for $100.00 each. A few made a lot of money playing that game.

Sounds a lot like bre-x stocks

[Bushrat]

Originally Posted by Springer

Someone mentioned a Double fence so there will be no contact with outside animals.Well lots of Coyotes, Fox, rabbits , Ravens , crows whatever can still get in the pens and eat anything that may perish in there , or even our feathered friends that eat their feces then leave have the possibility of spreading any disease ~ prions outside that fence.

Cheers.

Add to that trees fall on fences be they double or single neither will hold up a decent sized tree. Never mind that people cut fences and gates get left open for whatever reason but it has happened before and no doubt will happen again.

[Full Curl Earl]

You do get the whole morals Ethics thing when it comes to hunting right?

QUOTE=Dewey Cox;4307424]If you're upset that that it's not true hunting, then don't do it.

The only legitimate concern about this is it could spread disease to the natural animal population.
But the rest of these complaints are ridiculous.
If someone goes and kills a cow on a farm, do you jump all over them for not being real farmers?
Legalizing gay marriage didn't turn you gay, and legalizing caged hunts won't make you a cage hunter.[/QUOTE]

[tonnage]

For those of you that need to be reminded, and there sure seems to be quite a few of you. Spend the time and give this a listen. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mFmoAia6kx4