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  #31  
Old 09-01-2020, 04:32 AM
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Coiloil37 Coiloil37 is offline
 
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Originally Posted by Walleyedude View Post
You're free to compare apples to oranges, though I'm not sure what the point of it is.

We could all spend 10X what the OP wants to spend and run Furano or B&G units on southern AB puddles, but that seems kinda ridiculous.



I never take screen shots, I've never really seen the point of it, so I honestly don't have any. I'll grab a few next time I'm out. In the meantime, the internet is FULL of them, all anyone has to do if they're curious is Google it and they can see for themselves. And no, I'm not going to do that and post internet pics here.



Relax, it wasn't meant as an argument, just poking a little fun lol.

As a general rule I don’t do the back and forth game with guys who are only trying to prove a point as opposed to discuss something with the prospect of learning something but I’ll take another kick at this.

I’m not comparing apples to oranges. My furuno is a <$1000 unit and even at the bottom of the furuno product line you still get access to the best 2d sonar on the market. They’ve got technology built into their units nobody else has at any price point. It’s probably a brand you’ve never used so rather then tell me I’m comparing pickups to frying pans you could read the manual for one or do a quick google (if you were interested in learning something new).

It’s true a furuno with side scan is priced out of the discussion which is why I didn’t bring it up. If a guy wants side scan or down scan at the price point the OP brought up and is fishing lakes (shallow water) your better looking somewhere else.

I’ve fished in boats with the lowrance elite line and I’ve looked at all of the lowrance and simrad units in store. The 2d screens didn’t impress me. You can’t provide a screen shot so I took the liberty of googling it. They’re still not as clear (IMO) as my five year old helix was.





The birds mega down imaging and side imaging utilise 1000+ kHz and so far as I know are still top dogs on that scene in shallow water. Their screens are clear and the 2d sonar is good enough.
Personally I don’t think the side scan is very good until your into the 12”+ screens but everyone has their own opinion.

If I wanted to spend a grand and fished Alberta it would be a Garmin or humminbird. The Garmins I’ve fished around (all offshore) have impressed the heck out of me. If I moved back to Alberta it’s likely where I would put my money. The only thing that might sway my opinion was how much I liked the bird being linked to my ipilot.
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  #32  
Old 09-01-2020, 07:02 AM
Walleyedude Walleyedude is offline
 
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Walleyedude, how do you know Low6 will replace the Elite ti2 soon?
Saw on another forum this morning that Lowrance dropped the price on the Elite TI2s again, that's a pretty sure fire sign they're going to be upgraded.

12"=$200, 9"=$100, 7"=$50. Those are in USD, so not sure how they'll compare up here.
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  #33  
Old 09-01-2020, 07:39 AM
Walleyedude Walleyedude is offline
 
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As a general rule I don’t do the back and forth game with guys who are only trying to prove a point as opposed to discuss something with the prospect of learning something but I’ll take another kick at this.

I’m not comparing apples to oranges. My furuno is a <$1000 unit and even at the bottom of the furuno product line you still get access to the best 2d sonar on the market. They’ve got technology built into their units nobody else has at any price point. It’s probably a brand you’ve never used so rather then tell me I’m comparing pickups to frying pans you could read the manual for one or do a quick google (if you were interested in learning something new).

It’s true a furuno with side scan is priced out of the discussion which is why I didn’t bring it up. If a guy wants side scan or down scan at the price point the OP brought up and is fishing lakes (shallow water) your better looking somewhere else.
I'm always open to learning new things, so I spent some time Googling the Furuno units. I've only ever seen one in person, it was on the Bass Pro display counter for years, and I have to tell you, it did not impress me.

I'm not sure which unit you have, but this is the nearest unit I could find that would be a direct comparable to the Lowrance and Humminbird units being discussed. It's not capable of SI or DI, so maybe it's not the best comparison, their website isn't the best.

https://www.furunousa.com/en/products/gp1971f

Price is $1350 USD, plus a transducer for another $100 or so. That's around $1900 CDN.

They have some cheaper units, but they're not chart plotters, they're fish finders only. From there, the jump in price to get up to the next level is massive.

I'll be the first one to agree with you that how the sonar signal is processed is definitely a big factor, BUT, when it comes to displaying that signal, the screen resolution is the ultimate limiting factor. The resolution of this unit and the Lowrance TI2 are identical at 800X480 pixels. Both are LCD TFT screens. So, it's fine to say the 2D technology in the Furuno is superior, maybe it is, I have zero experience with them so I can't say, but they're both identical in terms of their ability to display detail.

Unless you can point me to a Furuno unit I'm missing, it would seem that all of the brands, including 'Bird, are running the same, or very nearly the same, screen resolutions in this price range and screen size. So given that, everyone is free to have their preferences, but the specs would suggest they're all very similar.
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  #34  
Old 09-01-2020, 08:04 PM
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Excellent discussion. I have ipilot. Looks like hummingbird is for me. Now what size? >7”.
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  #35  
Old 09-02-2020, 05:11 AM
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Originally Posted by Walleyedude View Post
I'm always open to learning new things, so I spent some time Googling the Furuno units. I've only ever seen one in person, it was on the Bass Pro display counter for years, and I have to tell you, it did not impress me.

I'm not sure which unit you have, but this is the nearest unit I could find that would be a direct comparable to the Lowrance and Humminbird units being discussed. It's not capable of SI or DI, so maybe it's not the best comparison, their website isn't the best.

https://www.furunousa.com/en/products/gp1971f

Price is $1350 USD, plus a transducer for another $100 or so. That's around $1900 CDN.

They have some cheaper units, but they're not chart plotters, they're fish finders only. From there, the jump in price to get up to the next level is massive.

I'll be the first one to agree with you that how the sonar signal is processed is definitely a big factor, BUT, when it comes to displaying that signal, the screen resolution is the ultimate limiting factor. The resolution of this unit and the Lowrance TI2 are identical at 800X480 pixels. Both are LCD TFT screens. So, it's fine to say the 2D technology in the Furuno is superior, maybe it is, I have zero experience with them so I can't say, but they're both identical in terms of their ability to display detail.

Unless you can point me to a Furuno unit I'm missing, it would seem that all of the brands, including 'Bird, are running the same, or very nearly the same, screen resolutions in this price range and screen size. So given that, everyone is free to have their preferences, but the specs would suggest they're all very similar.
That’s the entry level furuno. I have the 1871f which is the 7” version of the one you posted. The 7” is about $650 USD street price and the 9” a couple hundred more. The MSRP is a long ways from what they sell for. You are correct though, they are 2d without side scan and down scan. I didn’t explore side scan for a couple reasons specific to me. One, the cheapest I would consider is the raymarine axiom pro and it’s a $3700 sounder. To get side scan with a 1 kw transducer costs more then I want to pay and anything less then a 1kw ducer is useless in the depths I fish. The last reason is the reality that I probably only have a few days a year where it’s calm enough to actually use it. Some of the pricier models have stabilisers built in but again your paying for it and most will be pushing $10k.

One of the things I wanted from the furuno was the ability to look at the top 50-70m of water without the sounder looking for the bottom. The furuno can process that top section of water and give me the returns I’m looking for even if I’m sitting over a couple thousand meters of water. Most sounder brands can isolate the top section of the water column but the sounder is still waiting for the ping to come back from the bottom and they struggle giving the picture I want and marking fish in the top of the water column.
I also wanted their bottom discrimination to tell me if the bottom is sand/gravel/mud or rock because some of the fish I target are found on certain types of bottom composition and bait like yakkas that I need for livies aren’t found over sand if there’s any swell because the sand particles irritate their gills.
They have a few other features I wanted like accufish where I can make the returns a different colour based on their size so I knew what type/size of fish are showing up. The white line for the bottom so I can see cod, grouper and flathead laying directly on the bottom. The rezboost and the bottom lock. If I’m hammering away on bottom fish I typically run split screen with the left side zoomed in on the bottom 5 meters of water. I also occasionally run 50 hz on the left for the wider cone and 200 on the right. One of these days I’ll also exploit the fact I can put a 1kw ducer on it with adjustable frequency and choose how many Hz I’m pinging because certain fish show up better with the ducer pinging on a certain frequency (like tuna).

Now, none of that is relevant in Alberta but I only stuck my nose in here because I was discussing how there is a difference in 2d technology.
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  #36  
Old 09-02-2020, 07:57 AM
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Originally Posted by lmtada View Post
Excellent discussion. I have ipilot. Looks like hummingbird is for me. Now what size? >7”.
I can say that almost everyone despite the brand opinion differences has said to buy the biggest screen you can afford.
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  #37  
Old 09-02-2020, 08:39 AM
CptnBlues63 CptnBlues63 is offline
 
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If I were the OP I would be looking at Garmin or humminbird but that has a lot to do with my personal dislike of lowrance/simrad.

My lowrance looks like this, some shallow and deeper shots. Pixilated like a 1985 Atari. This is running a 600w airmar transducer.
Ok, you're biased against Lowrance. At least you're honest and admit that.

I'm not biased for or against any particular depth finder but I own a Lowrance HDS5 with nav chip. I own that because I bought it used off my bro for a killer good price. It's nice too that it came with all his waypoints for all the lakes he's fished on in SK

The images you posted above from your Lowrance are nothing like what I see on mine. The images I see on my Lowrance look more like the images you posted from your Humminbird (without the cutesy little fish icons) My images are sharp and clear and not at all pixilated.

Is it possible there's something wrong with your Lowrance that it's producing such lousy images?
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  #38  
Old 09-02-2020, 08:58 AM
Walleyedude Walleyedude is offline
 
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Originally Posted by Coiloil37 View Post
One of the things I wanted from the furuno was the ability to look at the top 50-70m of water without the sounder looking for the bottom. The furuno can process that top section of water and give me the returns I’m looking for even if I’m sitting over a couple thousand meters of water. Most sounder brands can isolate the top section of the water column but the sounder is still waiting for the ping to come back from the bottom and they struggle giving the picture I want and marking fish in the top of the water column.
That's definitely a cool feature. I've never tried anything like that, so I don't know if the higher end Lowrance/Humminbird units are capable of that or not. I suspect you'd have to make the jump to Simrad/B&G that are focused on the salt.

Quote:
I also wanted their bottom discrimination to tell me if the bottom is sand/gravel/mud or rock because some of the fish I target are found on certain types of bottom composition and bait like yakkas that I need for livies aren’t found over sand if there’s any swell because the sand particles irritate their gills.
How does it differentiate and display that?

All sonars can give you a very good idea of bottom composition simply by interpreting the strength of the bottom return signal. Solid thin yellow line = rock, thicker yellow band with maybe a bit of red equals sand, and thick red band = mud (at least on my preferred color scheme). Sand/mud transitions are very easy to recognize once you get your eye trained to it, and rock is always obvious.

Quote:
They have a few other features I wanted like accufish where I can make the returns a different colour based on their size so I knew what type/size of fish are showing up.
If you dial in your colorline settings, you can do this with a Lowrance, and I would assume the 'Bird as well, pretty easily. I can very accurately tell you how big the fish is under the boat just by interpreting the size and color of the arch/line. Everything with sonar is shades of grey though, because where the fish is in the sonar cone also really affects the strength of the return. Maybe Furuno found a way to account for that in the software, but I'd be surprised.

Quote:
The white line for the bottom so I can see cod, grouper and flathead laying directly on the bottom. The rezboost and the bottom lock. If I’m hammering away on bottom fish I typically run split screen with the left side zoomed in on the bottom 5 meters of water. I also occasionally run 50 hz on the left for the wider cone and 200 on the right. One of these days I’ll also exploit the fact I can put a 1kw ducer on it with adjustable frequency and choose how many Hz I’m pinging because certain fish show up better with the ducer pinging on a certain frequency (like tuna).
How well do you think the white line to mark the bottom actually works?

I'm curious because differentiating fish from bottom is the toughest thing we ask our sonars to do. Determining whether that subtle bump is a rock or a walleye that's belly to the bottom can be a real challenge in 25' of water, let alone 250' of water. I don't think I would trust the sonar unit software to get that right most of the time. Maybe it would be better at it than I am though lol.

Quote:
Now, none of that is relevant in Alberta but I only stuck my nose in here because I was discussing how there is a difference in 2d technology.
I think it's all relevant. It certainly shows where technology is going, and all of those features could easily be applied here.
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  #39  
Old 09-02-2020, 08:59 AM
Walleyedude Walleyedude is offline
 
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I can say that almost everyone despite the brand opinion differences has said to buy the biggest screen you can afford.
Yep, absolutely.
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  #40  
Old 09-02-2020, 02:58 PM
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I can say that almost everyone despite the brand opinion differences has said to buy the biggest screen you can afford.
I have big Scuba Mask.......
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  #41  
Old 09-02-2020, 03:24 PM
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Excellent discussion. I have ipilot. Looks like hummingbird is for me. Now what size? >7”.
Here's my advice I would give any of my friends ......... buy the best unit you can in your budget ......with the biggest screen you can

I would insist that GPS, 2d Sonar, DI (down imaging) multiple card slots, networking would be MUST HAVES for most guys.

SI (side imaging) or MEGA imaging is a "great option" but it comes at a price.

If you fish lakers, or deep water SI is awesome - you can troll a line, see fish out to the left (or right) up to 120' or more with some units - make a pass and turn around and troll your gear over them .... that's where SI shines for me.

MEGA imaging is even better because it looks like it will do that in all directions like 360 with the very best possible results with current technology.

Regarding SI - I don't use it a bunch in shallow water to be honest ..... does show targets, and tells you what's there, but it's a "nice to have". It's on my screen all the time, bit it's not as "critical" as the map/gps, 2d, or DI splits I'm looking at.

For many - It may boil down to bigger screen with No SI over a smaller full featured unit but it depends on how you fish.

And because you have i-pilot (or i-pilot link) the Bird is the way to go.
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  #42  
Old 09-02-2020, 03:44 PM
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Originally Posted by Walleyedude View Post

How well do you think the white line to mark the bottom actually works?

I'm curious because differentiating fish from bottom is the toughest thing we ask our sonars to do. Determining whether that subtle bump is a rock or a walleye that's belly to the bottom can be a real challenge in 25' of water, let alone 250' of water. I don't think I would trust the sonar unit software to get that right most of the time. Maybe it would be better at it than I am though lol.
My Bird Onix can quite easily differentiate a fish hugging the bottom versus a rock without any issue whatsoever. Even in over 200' of water. No problem.

Granted, the Onix unit isn't the standard product line for the birds and it was significantly more expensive - but my Onix unit is 2 gens older than the current Helix line so I have to assume all the new units would be capable of the same (at the right frequency and sensitivity settings) wouldn't they?

I am shocked that any modern unit couldn't simply tell the difference between densities of objects ...

Using my Onix, which literally has a "round dial" on the unit, I can be over a weed bed and see weeds, turn the dial down, low density weeds disappear then I see the fish within those weeds and the bottom - or I can do the same dialing the bottom to see the fish (lower density color setting with air bladders maybe? versus rocks or other debris).

I thought this was something the units could do to (although it may not have a "dial" and maybe a menu option or something????)
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Old 09-02-2020, 04:36 PM
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Here's my advice I would give any of my friends ......... buy the best unit you can in your budget ......with the biggest screen you can

I would insist that GPS, 2d Sonar, DI (down imaging) multiple card slots, networking would be MUST HAVES for most guys.

SI (side imaging) or MEGA imaging is a "great option" but it comes at a price.

If you fish lakers, or deep water SI is awesome - you can troll a line, see fish out to the left (or right) up to 120' or more with some units - make a pass and turn around and troll your gear over them .... that's where SI shines for me.

MEGA imaging is even better because it looks like it will do that in all directions like 360 with the very best possible results with current technology.

Regarding SI - I don't use it a bunch in shallow water to be honest ..... does show targets, and tells you what's there, but it's a "nice to have". It's on my screen all the time, bit it's not as "critical" as the map/gps, 2d, or DI splits I'm looking at.

For many - It may boil down to bigger screen with No SI over a smaller full featured unit but it depends on how you fish.

And because you have i-pilot (or i-pilot link) the Bird is the way to go.
I will look into it. Thank You. 🍻
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  #44  
Old 09-15-2020, 08:35 AM
Walleyedude Walleyedude is offline
 
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I actually remembered to take a couple screen shots when I was out last week. Hopefully the image quality comes through. There's a couple captures of the transition from sand/silt to the basinal muds, which was something discussed above. The other two are random fish marks when I happened to remember to hit the screen shot button. The last one with the big arc on the cloud of bait was a 9.5lb walleye.
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  #45  
Old 09-15-2020, 03:20 PM
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Display quality is as I expected.

Chasing some clarification here on your perception of sand and mud. Which is which (side for side)?




Furuno has bottom discrimination which depicts it like this on the bottom of the screen. I have the luxury of being able to see the bottom to about 30m of water so it’s easy enough to look over the side to see if it’s lying to me and it’s always been spot on. In deeper water I’ve often got a gopro down there and check things that way.




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Old 09-15-2020, 03:41 PM
Walleyedude Walleyedude is offline
 
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Display quality is as I expected.

Chasing some clarification here on your perception of sand and mud. Which is which (side for side)?




Furuno has bottom discrimination which depicts it like this on the bottom of the screen. I have the luxury of being able to see the bottom to about 30m of water so it’s easy enough to look over the side to see if it’s lying to me and it’s always been spot on. In deeper water I’ve often got a gopro down there and check things that way.




Mud is left, sand is right. You can actually see where the mud onlaps the previous sandy/hard bottom as the lake bed slowly fills with silt/mud.

Beauty is in in the eye of the beholder as they say. To my eye, the display quality of the Lowrance is definitely superior.

The sand/gravel/mud bar is interesting, but to be honest, it does nothing for me.
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  #47  
Old 09-15-2020, 04:08 PM
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This has been an informative thread! I’m also looking to purchase a top notch fishfinder for my Cumberland float tube in the $1000 price range. I’ve done a LOT of research & I really like the Humminbird Helix 7 Chirp Mega SI gps g3n. Size does matter & although it’s overkill now, I may be moving up to a Hobie Mirage Pro Angler 360 drive kayak.

https://humminbird.johnsonoutdoors.c...ega-si-gps-g3n
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  #48  
Old 09-15-2020, 04:12 PM
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Originally Posted by Walleyedude View Post
Mud is left, sand is right. You can actually see where the mud onlaps the previous sandy/hard bottom as the lake bed slowly fills with silt/mud.

Beauty is in in the eye of the beholder as they say. To my eye, the display quality of the Lowrance is definitely superior.

The sand/gravel/mud bar is interesting, but to be honest, it does nothing for me.

I agree With your assessment. I had to clarify because way you wrote it twice lead me to believe you interpreted it the opposite way.

Correct. My bottom of the range furuno running a non chirp, $120 ducer is not “that” good. When I upgrade to a 1kw chirp transducer I’ll get better returns and until then I’ll deal with what I’ve got. However, the lowrance imo isn’t on par with my old bird but that’s hard to quantify because you’ve got the gain set a little higher then I did (as it should be) and I had all the weak returns filtered out. However I was in 150’ of water and showing both bait and fish with crystal clarity so I still preferred what I had.


You and I fish different water and it’s pretty well impossible for me to distinguish between sand/gravel/rock based on bottom return. I’ve never seen a muddy bottom here so I’ll leave that out. Can you discern the difference based on bottom return in either of my pictures? The difference on where to find fish or bait is night and day though so it helps me.
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Old 09-15-2020, 05:48 PM
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Ok guys wrap it up. We need a consensus, I am very interested.
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Old 09-15-2020, 06:56 PM
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Originally Posted by Walleyedude View Post
All sonars can give you a very good idea of bottom composition simply by interpreting the strength of the bottom return signal. Solid thin yellow line = rock, thicker yellow band with maybe a bit of red equals sand, and thick red band = mud (at least on my preferred color scheme). Sand/mud transitions are very easy to recognize once you get your eye trained to it, and rock is always obvious.



If you dial in your colorline settings, you can do this with a Lowrance, and I would assume the 'Bird as well, pretty easily. I can very accurately tell you how big the fish is under the boat just by interpreting the size and color of the arch/line. Everything with sonar is shades of grey though, because where the fish is in the sonar cone also really affects the strength of the return. Maybe Furuno found a way to account for that in the software, but I'd be surprised..

The first paragraph is where I’m confused what your trying to say. Harder bottoms display stronger returns. The sonar penetrates harder bottoms and displays a thicker, stronger return vs being absorbed by a soft bottom and displaying a thinner, different colour return. On your sounder the mud is depicted as blue and the red/yellow is harder. The way you wrote it suggests you interpret it the opposite way.
The return however changes based on speed, sounder gain and depth. If your running in manual and the gain remains the same, you could troll up a ledge where the depth is getting shallower and the bottom return can look thicker even though the bottom composition didn’t change. Run it in auto and it’s even harder to judge because you don’t know what adjustments it’s making while your moving. Change your speed over ground and it’ll change again. Lots of variables at play.


The second paragraph. Sure, you could think so but I find it difficult when the change is subtle or I’m fishing a variety of depths. I can pick a 3m long target like a shark or marlin from a 1m kingfish or tuna when they’re at similar depths but when your fishing everything from 5m to 450m with changes in sounder settings, zoom, boat speed, scroll speed, possibly isolating the top or bottom of the water column, etc. it gets difficult. On a 7” display in 150m of water a 1m long tuna at 20m can look very similar to a 2m long shark down at 140m all in the same picture. I just have mine notify me for targets over 40” regardless of depth or sounder settings and then I evaluate them as required to decide what they are.
I don’t go to a reef in 80m and have it separate by colour the different targets in
10cm slots although I could. I simply don’t care enough to do it that way. I find the bait with some fish showing and get hooks or a GoPro down to tell me what they are. If I start pulling up fish I don’t want I move.
When I’m trolling, say I’m looking at 150m of water, I just want it to easily indicate the larger targets regardless of if I’m in manual or auto, what speed I’m trolling or what frequency I’m on and then I’ll decide what I want to do about it.
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Old 09-15-2020, 09:27 PM
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Ok guys wrap it up. We need a consensus, I am very interested.
If someone has (or will soon have) a minnkota electric motor with i-pilot or I pilot link it's a pretty easy decision really .........

Only a hummingbird will allow you control your minnkota from the helm, trace a path, follow a track, follow a contour, take you home or whatever and set your speed and pilot you around - a Lowrance won't

You can control your i-pilot motor from the helm with a hummingbird - lowrance won't

You can use your transducer which is housed in your minnkota (all bigger units have a transducer) under your trolling motor and display that on any of your hummingbird units - you can't display it on a Lowrance.

You can use Mega 360 imaging from your minnkota motor (either equipped with or added to it) to get 360 imaging on your hummingbird unit - a lowrance can't

To say a Lowrance is significantly better (or worse) compared to a equally priced and featured bird is simply not true.

I have both on my boat. Side by side.
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  #52  
Old 09-15-2020, 10:33 PM
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Coiloil37 Coiloil37 is offline
 
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Default what fishfinder under 1000?

I’m still not sure how you can argue the clarity of the bird vs the lowrance. To me the birds display takes the cake and the lowrance looks pixilated. Add in the trolling motor control and the fact I had them linked to my cannon downriggers and it’s pretty simple if those are the only two your considering.



Just ignore the fish symbols and look at the returns on the screen.





















And another blurry pic snipped out of a video

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  #53  
Old 09-16-2020, 06:59 AM
Walleyedude Walleyedude is offline
 
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Originally Posted by Coiloil37 View Post
The first paragraph is where I’m confused what your trying to say. Harder bottoms display stronger returns. The sonar penetrates harder bottoms and displays a thicker, stronger return vs being absorbed by a soft bottom and displaying a thinner, different colour return. On your sounder the mud is depicted as blue and the red/yellow is harder. The way you wrote it suggests you interpret it the opposite way.
The return however changes based on speed, sounder gain and depth. If your running in manual and the gain remains the same, you could troll up a ledge where the depth is getting shallower and the bottom return can look thicker even though the bottom composition didn’t change. Run it in auto and it’s even harder to judge because you don’t know what adjustments it’s making while your moving. Change your speed over ground and it’ll change again. Lots of variables at play.
When I read it again, I don't get that, but I guess maybe it isn't clear. If you use that capture, you can clearly see mud vs sand, if you get into rock, the yellow band will be much thinner, and you'll often see an echo underneath it. I wish I had grabbed a capture of the rocks we were fishing.

Changing depth doesn't have much impact on the how the bottom return strength displays, especially if you look at it somewhat qualitatively rather than purely quantitatively. Speed has some effect, and of course, your settings have some effect. All the Furuno unit is doing is measuring the return strength and assigning a color to it on your bottom composition bar, it's just a different way of displaying the same thing. You trust the software to take into account all the variables you've mentioned and do a better job than your eye, fair enough.

Quote:
The second paragraph. Sure, you could think so but I find it difficult when the change is subtle or I’m fishing a variety of depths. I can pick a 3m long target like a shark or marlin from a 1m kingfish or tuna when they’re at similar depths but when your fishing everything from 5m to 450m with changes in sounder settings, zoom, boat speed, scroll speed, possibly isolating the top or bottom of the water column, etc. it gets difficult. On a 7” display in 150m of water a 1m long tuna at 20m can look very similar to a 2m long shark down at 140m all in the same picture. I just have mine notify me for targets over 40” regardless of depth or sounder settings and then I evaluate them as required to decide what they are.
I don’t go to a reef in 80m and have it separate by colour the different targets in 10cm slots although I could. I simply don’t care enough to do it that way. I find the bait with some fish showing and get hooks or a GoPro down to tell me what they are. If I start pulling up fish I don’t want I move.
When I’m trolling, say I’m looking at 150m of water, I just want it to easily indicate the larger targets regardless of if I’m in manual or auto, what speed I’m trolling or what frequency I’m on and then I’ll decide what I want to do about it.
You like the fish symbols. I know I poked you about it, but to each their own, no big deal. I could turn them on too, I just choose not to. Maybe I'm kidding myself, but I like to think I can get more out of reading the display than the computer software.
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  #54  
Old 09-16-2020, 07:09 AM
Walleyedude Walleyedude is offline
 
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Originally Posted by EZM View Post
If someone has (or will soon have) a minnkota electric motor with i-pilot or I pilot link it's a pretty easy decision really .........

Only a hummingbird will allow you control your minnkota from the helm, trace a path, follow a track, follow a contour, take you home or whatever and set your speed and pilot you around - a Lowrance won't

You can control your i-pilot motor from the helm with a hummingbird - lowrance won't

You can use your transducer which is housed in your minnkota (all bigger units have a transducer) under your trolling motor and display that on any of your hummingbird units - you can't display it on a Lowrance.

You can use Mega 360 imaging from your minnkota motor (either equipped with or added to it) to get 360 imaging on your hummingbird unit - a lowrance can't

To say a Lowrance is significantly better (or worse) compared to a equally priced and featured bird is simply not true.

I have both on my boat. Side by side.
Since we're playing this game, this point isn't 100% true. There's an inexpensive adapter cable that will allow you to connect the US2 2D sonar built into the MinnKota motors to any Lowrance sonar unit. There isn't an option to display DI/SI that I'm aware of though.

I get the trolling motor connection thing, but I'd love to see an honest poll or research on how many people actually use those features, especially on a consistent basis. After fishing the Rowans tourney for a week, I'd guess the percentage among those boats was very low. Maybe I'm a luddite, but I've got my Motorguide linked, and I pretty much never control it from the sonar units, other than to use the "go to waypoint" feature occasionally. It just doesn't fit the way I fish. If I didn't hate the layout of the MinnKota remote (which is where 99% of time is spent) so much, I'd probably have a Terrova or an Ulterra on my boat.

As for your last point, I guess we'll have to agree to disagree lol.
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  #55  
Old 09-16-2020, 07:21 AM
Walleyedude Walleyedude is offline
 
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Originally Posted by Coiloil37 View Post
I’m still not sure how you can argue the clarity of the bird vs the lowrance. To me the birds display takes the cake and the lowrance looks pixilated. Add in the trolling motor control and the fact I had them linked to my cannon downriggers and it’s pretty simple if those are the only two your considering.

Just ignore the fish symbols and look at the returns on the screen.















And another blurry pic snipped out of a video

I'm doing that, and I gotta tell you, looking at those pictures, I'm not sure why we're arguing either, the Lowrance looks clearly better to me in every aspect.

Pixelation is the same, remember, they're the same screen resolution, they sure look the same to me. Keep in mind, I had the sensitivity dialed up which causes the "cloudiness" in the water column.

Fish arch identification and target separation is very clear on the Lowrance, it's washed out and "thin" on the Bird, and unfortunately the fish symbols block out some of that info. The sensitivity is also turned way down on the Bird, so it's hard to compare.

Screen brightness and clarity isn't even close, add in the effectiveness of the color palette, and Lowrance is painting a better picture.

Now granted, my screenshots are from an HDS Live unit, not an Elite TI2, but I'm really not seeing what you're seeing.

We both have our biases, and we'll never agree, so no point discussing this aspect any further. Agree to disagree.
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  #56  
Old 09-16-2020, 04:58 PM
kingrat kingrat is offline
 
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awesome discussion, pretty sure ive decided on the humminbird helix 7 with mega si and mega di just waiting for a killer sale because i missed the fishin hole one.
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  #57  
Old 09-16-2020, 07:06 PM
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Coiloil37 Coiloil37 is offline
 
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Originally Posted by Walleyedude View Post
When I read it again, I don't get that, but I guess maybe it isn't clear. If you use that capture, you can clearly see mud vs sand, if you get into rock, the yellow band will be much thinner, and you'll often see an echo underneath it. I wish I had grabbed a capture of the rocks we were fishing.

Changing depth doesn't have much impact on the how the bottom return strength displays, especially if you look at it somewhat qualitatively rather than purely quantitatively. Speed has some effect, and of course, your settings have some effect. All the Furuno unit is doing is measuring the return strength and assigning a color to it on your bottom composition bar, it's just a different way of displaying the same thing. You trust the software to take into account all the variables you've mentioned and do a better job than your eye, fair enough.



You like the fish symbols. I know I poked you about it, but to each their own, no big deal. I could turn them on too, I just choose not to. Maybe I'm kidding myself, but I like to think I can get more out of reading the display than the computer software.

Changing depth, speed or gain does make a difference. You probably don’t see it the way I do because we are fishing vastly different waterbodies.

Bottom composition. It’s pretty easy to see a soft mud transition to something harder. Much more difficult when your changing from clean hard sand bottoms to gravel and rock. Coral is easier to pick out as is wire weed. Regardless. Tell me exactly where on this shot I went from sand to gravel and then try and convince me you could do that without fail on the water. And this is an easy one, I’m almost never fishing in less then 60m of water and it’s usually over 100m.




Yes I do trust the software because it works. Not only can you research it to see if it works but I can troll around and watch the bottom and the sounder and see that it indicates the correct bottom composition. It takes some of the guessing out of the equation.

No I don’t like the fish symbols. I like to be notified when a potential target is identified so I don’t have to try and deduce what every spec on the screen is. Fishing big game especially solo is busy and I don’t have the time a guy does when he’s trolling a single line at 2km/h on a lake for a walleye. Between driving the boat and watching each lures surface action while trolling six lines at an average of 15 km/h but up to 40km/h , making sure I don’t get any tangles, watching for fish in the spread, bird action, bait action, floating debris, observing every rod tip and outrigger for a potential tap so I can drop baits back to inquisitive fish, keeping an eye on the seas swell and chop, current lines, current direction, maintaining optimal SOG, looking for bait slicks, temp breaks, map position, the two 5 and 7 year old boys I take with me doing god knows what, the outboards bubble trail and where the dredges and lures are running in relationship to the white water ETC. I usually just let the sounder notify me when there’s a potential target under the boat. So in that regard yes I like it when it says “hey there’s a 40+” fish under you”. I arbitrarily chose 40” because anything that size and larger may be something I care to catch.

In regard to your other post about the clarity of the bird vs the lowrance. Your last post put it together for me. What your calling clearly defined arches I’m calling pixilated. To me it looks like it was drawn with a crayon vs the humminbird looks like it was drawn with a drafting pencil. I don’t like the lowrance depiction on screen but I’ll revisit that if I get cataracts. I’m perfectly happy to agree to disagree.

The difference in 2d sonar discussion took some interesting turns. Furuno has a lot of other tech built into their units that I’m happy using in the water I’m fishing. I’m not interested in the back and forth or trying to explain it all. If your ever on a charter or commercial boat in a first world country you’ll probably notice a furuno on the dash and perhaps you’ll spark a conversation with the captain about what it offers him. If not, forums like thehulltruth and bloodydecks have guys discussing furuno and why they’re a superior unit and installed on the vast majority of serious offshore boats (commercial or recreational).


I think I’m going to go buy a Garmin this afternoon and throw it on the boat this weekend. I want to see how the side scan works offshore.
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  #58  
Old 09-16-2020, 08:00 PM
Walleyedude Walleyedude is offline
 
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Originally Posted by Coiloil37 View Post
Changing depth, speed or gain does make a difference. You probably don’t see it the way I do because we are fishing vastly different waterbodies.

Bottom composition. It’s pretty easy to see a soft mud transition to something harder. Much more difficult when your changing from clean hard sand bottoms to gravel and rock. Coral is easier to pick out as is wire weed. Regardless. Tell me exactly where on this shot I went from sand to gravel and then try and convince me you could do that without fail on the water. And this is an easy one, I’m almost never fishing in less then 60m of water and it’s usually over 100m.




Yes I do trust the software because it works. Not only can you research it to see if it works but I can troll around and watch the bottom and the sounder and see that it indicates the correct bottom composition. It takes some of the guessing out of the equation.

No I don’t like the fish symbols. I like to be notified when a potential target is identified so I don’t have to try and deduce what every spec on the screen is. Fishing big game especially solo is busy and I don’t have the time a guy does when he’s trolling a single line at 2km/h on a lake for a walleye. Between driving the boat and watching each lures surface action while trolling six lines at an average of 15 km/h but up to 40km/h , making sure I don’t get any tangles, watching for fish in the spread, bird action, bait action, floating debris, observing every rod tip and outrigger for a potential tap so I can drop baits back to inquisitive fish, keeping an eye on the seas swell and chop, current lines, current direction, maintaining optimal SOG, looking for bait slicks, temp breaks, map position, the two 5 and 7 year old boys I take with me doing god knows what, the outboards bubble trail and where the dredges and lures are running in relationship to the white water ETC. I usually just let the sounder notify me when there’s a potential target under the boat. So in that regard yes I like it when it says “hey there’s a 40+” fish under you”. I arbitrarily chose 40” because anything that size and larger may be something I care to catch.

In regard to your other post about the clarity of the bird vs the lowrance. Your last post put it together for me. What your calling clearly defined arches I’m calling pixilated. To me it looks like it was drawn with a crayon vs the humminbird looks like it was drawn with a drafting pencil. I don’t like the lowrance depiction on screen but I’ll revisit that if I get cataracts. I’m perfectly happy to agree to disagree.

The difference in 2d sonar discussion took some interesting turns. Furuno has a lot of other tech built into their units that I’m happy using in the water I’m fishing. I’m not interested in the back and forth or trying to explain it all. If your ever on a charter or commercial boat in a first world country you’ll probably notice a furuno on the dash and perhaps you’ll spark a conversation with the captain about what it offers him. If not, forums like thehulltruth and bloodydecks have guys discussing furuno and why they’re a superior unit and installed on the vast majority of serious offshore boats (commercial or recreational).

I think I’m going to go buy a Garmin this afternoon and throw it on the boat this weekend. I want to see how the side scan works offshore.
I’ve never looked at a Furuno screen, so there‘s no way for me to guess how it displays bottom. I couldn’t tell you where the change is. I’d like to think I could get you real close reading my Lowrance screen, but maybe, maybe not.

If you’d rather see thinner fish arches, its easily done with the user settings. Simply turn down the sensitivity, adjust the colorline, or just increase the scroll speed. It really is up to the individual user and preference. I have mine set to my preference that allows me to determine fish size and their relative position in the sonar cone. IMHO, there‘s more info there than in a thin pencil line.

The rest of your post is interesting, but I don’t really have any comment on it, doesn’t much apply to my world.
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  #59  
Old 09-16-2020, 08:52 PM
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EZM EZM is offline
 
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Originally Posted by Walleyedude View Post
Since we're playing this game, this point isn't 100% true. There's an inexpensive adapter cable that will allow you to connect the US2 2D sonar built into the MinnKota motors to any Lowrance sonar unit. There isn't an option to display DI/SI that I'm aware of though.

I get the trolling motor connection thing, but I'd love to see an honest poll or research on how many people actually use those features, especially on a consistent basis. After fishing the Rowans tourney for a week, I'd guess the percentage among those boats was very low. Maybe I'm a luddite, but I've got my Motorguide linked, and I pretty much never control it from the sonar units, other than to use the "go to waypoint" feature occasionally. It just doesn't fit the way I fish. If I didn't hate the layout of the MinnKota remote (which is where 99% of time is spent) so much, I'd probably have a Terrova or an Ulterra on my boat.

As for your last point, I guess we'll have to agree to disagree lol.
I'm not playing any game here - I was giving my opinion based on facts.

My point was .... If you have a MinnKota motor already (or want to get that brand), then plug and play any Humminbird unit, or your cannon downrigger, etc... into it and you are good to go.

Humminbird markets it as the Total "one boat" network. View, control, any of your transducers, motors, downriggers on any screen. plug and play.

It's not that hard to see the value there is there?

Seems pretty simple. Seems like honest advice to me.

Nothing here to play games with or disagree with - it's fact. It's pretty simple really.
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  #60  
Old 09-16-2020, 09:14 PM
Walleyedude Walleyedude is offline
 
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Originally Posted by EZM View Post
I'm not playing any game here - I was giving my opinion based on facts.

My point was .... If you have a MinnKota motor already (or want to get that brand), then plug and play any Humminbird unit, or your cannon downrigger, etc... into it and you are good to go.

Humminbird markets it as the Total "one boat" network. View, control, any of your transducers, motors, downriggers on any screen. plug and play.

It's not that hard to see the value there is there?

Seems pretty simple. Seems like honest advice to me.

Nothing here to play games with or disagree with - it's fact. It's pretty simple really.
You need to lighten up a little EZM. Don’t take everything so literally and personally. I meant nothing by that other than simply we’ve been going back and forth pointing out details about the tech.

This has really reached an end for me. Thanks for the discussion all.
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