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  #241  
Old 02-11-2012, 06:24 PM
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Originally Posted by Arn?Narn. View Post
you've lost me... I can't pick sense out of your post..

do you mean "were thet great thinks? Philosophers?"
I was using Plato because he was referring to the unseen things that would come to mind and then would be created by hand, so what was then in the conscious state would become real when manifested in the physical state. However, does this mean they were not real in the conscious state?

Like wise Biblical literature states "God's invisible qualities--his eternal power and divine nature--have been clearly seen, being understood from what has been made, so that men are without excuse." Rom 1:20

So at what point does it become real?

"The wind blows wherever it pleases. You hear its sound, but you cannot tell where it comes from or where it is going" and you can feel it so does this mean it's not real?
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  #242  
Old 02-11-2012, 06:28 PM
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If you like to watch debates, and discussions on Creation or Evolution you might fine some info at this site.

http://www.youtube.com/playlist?list=CCAF5ED6BED68C36

There is a couple of videos out "Darwin - The Voyage That Shook The World", and "Darwin's Dilemma" that are worth the viewing.

Many Scientist no longer support Darwin's Theories because findings from the PreCambrian Era or Shield tend to show that Life began at once, not through a series of successions. They can show however that species do evolve as they adapt to their surroundings but they don't cross over their perspective branches or boundries.
So during the Shield was when God put life on earth?

Creationist viewpoints in Science, is almost similar to quackery in Medicine.

Last edited by Arn?Narn.; 02-11-2012 at 06:35 PM.
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  #243  
Old 02-11-2012, 06:35 PM
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So during the Shield was when God put life on earth?
Good question. I do believe so all I can say is:

"God said, "Let the waters swarm with fish and other life. Let the skies be filled with birds of every kind." So God created great sea creatures and every sort of fish and every kind of bird. And God saw that it was good. Then God blessed them, saying, "Let the fish multiply and fill the oceans. Let the birds increase and fill the earth." This all happened on the fifth day. And God said, "Let the earth bring forth every kind of animal -- livestock, small animals, and wildlife." And so it was. God made all sorts of wild animals, livestock, and small animals, each able to reproduce more of its own kind. And God saw that it was good. (Genesis - The Beginning)

If you think about it the Bible is a very condense version of a lot of things that took place. Could you imagine how many books a person would have to carry or store if each fish, animal, tree, vegetation...etc. was written about in detail. I don't think anyone would have a building to keep all that info in.

Last edited by 30Cal; 02-11-2012 at 06:42 PM.
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  #244  
Old 02-11-2012, 06:36 PM
duffy4 duffy4 is offline
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Originally Posted by Arn?Narn. View Post
I am very interested in the theory of evolution thoughts, of those who believe God created the universe,

as well,..

If there is one God...and lets say he is the Christian God...and he has revealed himself through miracles, inteventions and the Bible...

Then what of the Hindus, the Muslims...who also claim such miracles, and revealing,...

Seems contradictory if there is one God, and he is the God of Christianity..

For the first part of your question, I am a Christian and believe that GOD created the universe, and is still creating. And I believe that HE set the wheels of the mechanics of evolution in motion.

At some point HE stepped in and put something special into humans to make them a special being with a greater connection to HIMSELF than his other creatures.



A really interesting book to read is "Mere Christianity" by C.S.Lewis

Lewis at one time did not believe in GOD. To the point that he took great pleasure in debating with believers and doing his best to discredit them and their beliefs. (surely he would have enjoyed participating in this thread when he was in that mind)

But he was a thinker. He found that there was a rational logical proof for the Christian faith. Read it with an open mind and perhaps your mind will be opened even further.
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  #245  
Old 02-11-2012, 06:40 PM
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Good question. I do believe so all I can say is

"God said, "Let the waters swarm with fish and other life. Let the skies be filled with birds of every kind." So God created great sea creatures and every sort of fish and every kind of bird. And God saw that it was good. Then God blessed them, saying, "Let the fish multiply and fill the oceans. Let the birds increase and fill the earth." This all happened on the fifth day. And God said, "Let the earth bring forth every kind of animal -- livestock, small animals, and wildlife." And so it was. God made all sorts of wild animals, livestock, and small animals, each able to reproduce more of its own kind. And God saw that it was good. (Genesis - The Beginning)
Yeah, according to Genesis 1. In Genesis 2, he kinda thought he would create Adam first, and then the critters "out of the ground" and bring them to Adam. Oh, and then Adam got to name them.
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  #246  
Old 02-11-2012, 06:44 PM
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I was using Plato because he was referring to the unseen things that would come to mind and then would be created by hand, so what was then in the conscious state would become real when manifested in the physical state. However, does this mean they were not real in the conscious state?

Like wise Biblical literature states "God's invisible qualities--his eternal power and divine nature--have been clearly seen, being understood from what has been made, so that men are without excuse." Rom 1:20

So at what point does it become real?

"The wind blows wherever it pleases. You hear its sound, but you cannot tell where it comes from or where it is going" and you can feel it so does this mean it's not real?
But based on what you are saying, you must believe in what Plato says, in order to believe the conclusion. Your premise has no proof.

This is begging the question...



Here are some other examples


Examples of Begging the Question

Bill: "God must exist."
Jill: "How do you know."
Bill: "Because the Bible says so."
Jill: "Why should I believe the Bible?"
Bill: "Because the Bible was written by God."


"The belief in God is universal. After all, everyone believes in God."

Interviewer: "Your resume looks impressive but I need another reference."
Bill: "Jill can give me a good reference."
Interviewer: "Good. But how do I know that Jill is trustworthy?"
Bill: "Certainly. I can vouch for her."
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  #247  
Old 02-11-2012, 06:44 PM
eastcoast eastcoast is offline
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why don't we believe in krishna?

krishna was born in india 1000 years before christ.

krishna was a carpenter,born of a virgin, baptized in a river.



what about mithra?

born december 25th,performed miracles, resurected on the third day, known as the lamb, the way, the truth to light, the savoir, the messiah.



written in 1280 bc the egyptian book of the dead describes a god named horus.

horus is the son of a god named osiris,born to a virgin mother,he was baptized in a river,horus walked alone in the desert,horus healed the sick,the blind,cast out demons, and of course he walked on water, and oh yeah he had 12 disciples, he was also crucified and rose from the dead 3 days later.


all these stories being a complete coincidence of course.

Last edited by eastcoast; 02-11-2012 at 06:49 PM.
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  #248  
Old 02-11-2012, 06:54 PM
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Originally Posted by duffy4 View Post
At some point HE stepped in and put something special into humans to make them a special being with a greater connection to HIMSELF than his other creatures.

A really interesting book to read is "Mere Christianity" by C.S.Lewis

Lewis at one time did not believe in GOD. To the point that he took great pleasure in debating with believers and doing his best to discredit them and their beliefs. (surely he would have enjoyed participating in this thread when he was in that mind)

But he was a thinker. He found that there was a rational logical proof for the Christian faith. Read it with an open mind and perhaps your mind will be opened even further.
Right from the moment He created them He had a special purpose in mind or He would not have created man in His image. It was to allow us an understanding of who He is, and why are we here. It's about head and body if you understand what I mean?

"So God created man in his own image, in the image of God he created him; male and female he created them."

And even before creation He knew man would fall and had a purpose in mind:

"Who hath saved us, and called us with an holy calling, not according to our works, but according to his own purpose and grace, which was given us in Christ Jesus before the world began"
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  #249  
Old 02-11-2012, 07:01 PM
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Originally Posted by eastcoast View Post
why don't we believe in krishna?

krishna was born in india 1000 years before christ.

krishna was a carpenter,born of a virgin, baptized in a river.



what about mithra?

born december 25th,performed miracles, resurected on the third day, known as the lamb, the way, the truth to light, the savoir, the messiah.



written in 1280 bc the egyptian book of the dead describes a god named horus.

horus is the son of a god named osiris,born to a virgin mother,he was baptized in a river,horus walked alone in the desert,horus healed the sick,the blind,cast out demons, and of course he walked on water, and oh yeah he had 12 disciples, he was also crucified and rose from the dead 3 days later.


all these stories being a complete coincidence of course.
It is about Spirit...believers are receiving a Spirit that gives them fruit from a tree:

"But the fruit of the Spirit is love, joy, peace, patience, kindness, goodness, faithfulness" and eternal life.

and the root of that tree:

"I am the Root and the Offspring of David, and the bright Morning Star."


What gifts are krishna, mithra, or horus (A book about dead) giving out?
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  #250  
Old 02-11-2012, 07:11 PM
eastcoast eastcoast is offline
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It is about Spirit...believers are receiving a Spirit that gives them fruit from a tree:

"But the fruit of the Spirit is love, joy, peace, patience, kindness, goodness, faithfulness" and eternal life.

and the root of that tree:

"I am the Root and the Offspring of David, and the bright Morning Star."


What gifts are krishna, mithra, or horus (A book about dead) giving out?
you got to admit those stories are a very good coincidences aren't they?
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  #251  
Old 02-11-2012, 07:27 PM
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you got to admit those stories are a very good coincidences aren't they?
I don't believe they are a coincidence, and they do note investigation. There seems to be more areas where they don't compare. I don't believe Horus removed the sins of his people, nor did he parallel a previous event thousand of years before as Christ did with the feast of the passover, where he became the lamb of the passover feast. I would like to also compare the time when Horus was written with the time Moses and the Exodus took place to see if some of the information pertaining to Horus could have been taken from the life of Moses and the Exodus. One should remember that there has always been some type of miracles, healings...etc. taking place amongst God's people and in their writings. This includes the events of the plagues and miracles that were done when Moses was in conflict with Pharaoh.

http://kingdavid8.com/Copycat/JesusHorus.html

In addition, the virgin birth was written about long before krishna and again this insight could have been taken by the Egyptian?

The virgin birth of Jesus prophecies both in Genesis and Isaiah. The Protevangelium implies that Christ would be the seed of a woman only, and Isaiah states that he would be born of an almah, which means virgin. These are books written thousands of years before Jesus came. And it was known that a lamb was used in sacrifice for the Jews for forgiveness of sins. So did someone borrow from scripture?

Last edited by 30Cal; 02-11-2012 at 07:51 PM.
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  #252  
Old 02-11-2012, 11:02 PM
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Nice try at deflection.

So, let's get back to the question. Joseph was not Jesus's father, so how can Jesus's lineage be traced back to David?

Trying to obfuscate never looks good on a person.
It was to show that He would be born along that line or should we say Lineage of David; He was not the seed of Joseph, but of God. The Lineage goes full circle, which also brings closure to the Old Testament. When you compare the Genealogy of Jesus according to Luke and Matthew, you will see that Adam was of God, and Jesus was the "only begotten Son" meaning He was of God's seed. It is not of flesh and blood as we know it, it is of His Spirit.

What is God's seed, it is His Word.

"The Word became flesh and made his dwelling among us. We have seen his glory, the glory of the One and Only, who came from the Father, full of grace and truth."

And He was to be born in the Lineage of David because He is a King. Jerusalem is the City of the Kings.

The Jerusalem of this earth is were all the tension is surmounting, but the Jerusalem above is where Christ is.

"But the Jerusalem that is above is free, and she is our mother" Jesus sits in this City as King, and if I understand correctly He sits upon the judgement throne.

One might see now that there is a Father, a mother...and children. Same composition as in the beginning. Yet this is unseen, although from what is made or created we can learn about God because it becomes seen.

"So God created man in his own image, in the image of God he created him; male and female he created them"

The entire book flows together from thousands of years ago to when it was written into the New Testament. As far as I'm aware no other Book does this over such a long time span.

Last edited by 30Cal; 02-11-2012 at 11:27 PM.
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  #253  
Old 02-11-2012, 11:10 PM
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ok seriously....9 pages....

Can anyone say "CABIN FEVER" ????

This thread was like a train wreck....I fought trying not to look long and hard.....and then I just had to....the tempation was just too much....

TBH...I read the first 10 posts and I wonder if anyone here knows what they arwe talking about

LC
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  #254  
Old 02-11-2012, 11:29 PM
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Originally Posted by Lefty-Canuck View Post
ok seriously....9 pages....

Can anyone say "CABIN FEVER" ????

This thread was like a train wreck....I fought trying not to look long and hard.....and then I just had to....the tempation was just too much....

TBH...I read the first 10 posts and I wonder if anyone here knows what they arwe talking about

LC
Wait til tomorrow, everyone seems to be taking there own shift to go at it
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  #255  
Old 02-11-2012, 11:42 PM
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Why worry about eternal things when you can distract yourself with how to blow up a coyote?

Thanks for the effort in the debate. Hopefully a few folks will take the time to think things over and maybe do some investigating.
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  #256  
Old 02-11-2012, 11:57 PM
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or wolf hunting.

A few more lines I should have added to my last couple sentences above

The entire book flows together from thousands of years ago to when it was written into the New Testament. As far as I'm aware no other Book does this over such a long time span to portray one central figure who is Jesus Christ. The entire book was writen for His purpose, just as creation was made by Him...that is why He can't be stopped, because He is God.

Good Night and May God Bless
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  #257  
Old 02-12-2012, 02:12 AM
avb3 avb3 is offline
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Default Evolution - proof from Nature

Evolution versus Creationism.

The debate bible literalists just can't stand, as all the factual, verifiable evidence supports evolution.

But don't take my word for it.

Here is a great article from Nature magazine. They said it much better then I ever could, it is a credible source, and what they discussed is peer reviewed science.

Oh, and they give original references.

Current stuff, not stuff written more then 2000 years ago. They actually know that a bat is a mammal, and not as the bible says (Deuteronomy 14:18), a bird. They also know that a rabbit does not chew it's cud, unlike the bible in the same chapter.

You know, the scientific reality.
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  #258  
Old 02-12-2012, 07:55 AM
Tactical Lever Tactical Lever is offline
 
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[QUOTE=jryley;1298944]
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Originally Posted by Tactical Lever View Post

Lol you lost any respect i had for with "carbon dating has proven to be a farce". My gosh man/woman. Get a
Grip on reality.
"Willard Libby (December 17, 1908 – September 8, 1980) and his colleagues discovered the technique of radiocarbon dating in 1949. Libbey knew that atmospheric carbon would reach equilibrium in 30,000 years. Because he assumed that the earth was millions of years old, he believed it was already at equilibrium. However each time they test it, they find more c14 in the atmosphere, and have realized that we are only 1/3 the way to equilibrium."

This also does not address the changing levels of carbon-14 on the earth due to our influence on the planet. It has also been found that the earth's declining magnetic field strength lets more into the atmosphere.

There are quite a few accounts of wildly inaccurate numbers gotten by carbon dating. Of course the trend is to cherry pick the number that "fits" due to common preconceptions.

Get a grip on grammar, and do some of your own research before "Lol'ing" at mine.
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  #259  
Old 02-12-2012, 08:25 AM
Tactical Lever Tactical Lever is offline
 
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[QUOTE]
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Originally Posted by avb3 View Post
Evolution versus Creationism.

The debate bible literalists just can't stand, as all the factual, verifiable evidence supports evolution.

But don't take my word for it.

Here is a great article from Nature magazine. They said it much better then I ever could, it is a credible source, and what they discussed is peer reviewed science.
Nothing surprising there. A bunch of references to selective breeding is hardly a definitive proof of evolution. Totally different things. You specifically referenced dogs as an example of diversity through breeding for select characteristics; yet they remain dogs, not birds, lizards or whatever the next step is supposed to be.


Quote:
Oh, and they give original references.

Current stuff, not stuff written more then 2000 years ago. They actually know that a bat is a mammal, and not as the bible says (Deuteronomy 14:18), a bird. They also know that a rabbit does not chew it's cud, unlike the bible in the same chapter.

You know, the scientific reality.
Taxonomic classification was not invented yet at the time. This is just a functional comparison. Hares do not regurgitate food to re-chew, but they do engage in refection.
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Old 02-12-2012, 09:43 AM
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......
Taxonomic classification was not invented yet at the time. This is just a functional comparison. Hares do not regurgitate food to re-chew, but they do engage in refection.
Horsepucky.

They knew a bird from a mammal from a reptile (remember the snake) from a fish (except whales apparently they got confuse on too).

And then there were the imaginary animals like unicorns and giants, which for some strange reason, no fossil evidence has been found.

2000 year old manuscripts dealing with the spiritual are not something to be relied on when dealing with the actual.

Use the allegory and metaphors contained therein, and like I said many times before, it can be used as a strong spiritual message. Taking it literally, naaaa, not so much
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  #261  
Old 02-12-2012, 10:23 AM
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"Is God willing to prevent evil, but not able ?
Then he is not omnipotent.
Is he able, but not willing ?
Then he is malevolent.
Is he both able and willing ?
Then does evil come from ?
Is he neither able nor willing ?
Then why call him God ?" — Epicurus (341-270BC), Greek philosopher.
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  #262  
Old 02-12-2012, 12:13 PM
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[QUOTE=Tactical Lever;1299713]
Quote:

Nothing surprising there. A bunch of references to selective breeding is hardly a definitive proof of evolution. Totally different things. You specifically referenced dogs as an example of diversity through breeding for select characteristics; yet they remain dogs, not birds, lizards or whatever the next step is supposed to be.
Errr.. you certainly skimmed and were "selective" in what you observed. Gosh, they even talk about that favorite subject, "Microevolution meets macroevolution"

Just to remind you of the topics covered:

Gems from the fossil record
1 Land-living ancestors of whales
2 From water to land
3 The origin of feathers
4 The evolutionary history of teeth
5 The origin of the vertebrate skeleton
Gems from habitats
6 Natural selection in speciation
7 Natural selection in lizards
8 A case of co-evolution
9 Differential dispersal in wild birds
10 Selective survival in wild guppies
11 Evolutionary history matters
Gems from molecular processes
12 Darwin’s Galapagos finches
13 Microevolution meets macroevolution
14 Toxin resistance in snakes and clams
15 Variation versus stability

That is a whole bunch more the selective breeding. It is disingenuous to only look a the part, not the whole.

After all, is that not what many of faith have been promulgating about the bible?
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  #263  
Old 02-12-2012, 12:43 PM
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Originally Posted by avb3 View Post
"Is God willing to prevent evil, but not able ?
Then he is not omnipotent.
Is he able, but not willing ?
Then he is malevolent.
Is he both able and willing ?
Then does evil come from ?
Is he neither able nor willing ?
Then why call him God ?" — Epicurus (341-270BC), Greek philosopher.
I will address these question; however I would like to add something to How Accurate is Radiocarbon Dating being debated or argued in the postings above.

avb3 do you see anything plausible in this information?
Attached Files
File Type: pdf How Accurate is Radiocarbon Dating.pdf (245.2 KB, 6 views)
File Type: pdf Technicla Notes On Limestone.pdf (294.7 KB, 7 views)

Last edited by 30Cal; 02-12-2012 at 12:52 PM.
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  #264  
Old 02-12-2012, 12:58 PM
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Originally Posted by avb3 View Post
Evolution versus Creationism.

The debate bible literalists just can't stand, as all the factual, verifiable evidence supports evolution.

But don't take my word for it.

Here is a great article from Nature magazine. They said it much better then I ever could, it is a credible source, and what they discussed is peer reviewed science.

Oh, and they give original references.

Current stuff, not stuff written more then 2000 years ago. They actually know that a bat is a mammal, and not as the bible says (Deuteronomy 14:18), a bird. They also know that a rabbit does not chew it's cud, unlike the bible in the same chapter.

You know, the scientific reality.
avb3

you have chosen a very long debated subject to talk about here. I know you previously seemed to have dismissed Dr. Walt Brown, but I encourage you to be the judge and not another Professor who felt he wasn't given a fair debate with Dr. Walt Brown. Hopefully this will answer some of your many questions.

You be the judge

http://www.creationscience.com/onlin...inningTOC.html
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  #265  
Old 02-12-2012, 01:00 PM
eastcoast eastcoast is offline
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avb3

you have chosen a very long debated subject to talk about here. I know you previously seemed to have dismissed Dr. Walt Brown, but I encourage you to be the judge and not another Professor who felt he was handed a shaky hand by Dr. Walt Brown during a debate. Hopefully this will answer smome of your many questions.

http://www.creationscience.com/onlin...inningTOC.html
really you are quoting a website that promotes creation science as your source?
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  #266  
Old 02-12-2012, 01:09 PM
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really you are quoting a website that promotes creation science as your source?
Yes. He examines both sides. Do you not base your present position with the information you have assimulated? From one or two sides. My library consist of both, does yours? As said before I was not a believer to begin with and I had a mind like yours in my younger years, but all the information that one needs to come to an informed conclusion/decision is in place, or is still being brought to the table, in its time. Afterall, is this not a war of spirits and principalities? Or do you not believe that you are a spiritual being?

Do you discard anything that does not concure with you belief system, without investigating? If so why?

Last edited by 30Cal; 02-12-2012 at 01:25 PM.
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  #267  
Old 02-12-2012, 01:24 PM
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avb3

you have chosen a very long debated subject to talk about here. I know you previously seemed to have dismissed Dr. Walt Brown, but I encourage you to be the judge and not another Professor who felt he wasn't given a fair debate with Dr. Walt Brown. Hopefully this will answer some of your many questions.

You be the judge

http://www.creationscience.com/onlin...inningTOC.html
Perhaps this video will debunk your young earth theory, and why carbon dating's restrictions are known (excuse some of the language, it is not my video)..
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  #268  
Old 02-12-2012, 01:33 PM
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Yes. He examines both sides. Do you not base your present position with the information you have assimulated? From one or two sides. My library consist of both, does yours? As said before I was not a believer to begin with and I had a mind like yours in my younger years, but all the information that one needs to come to an informed conclusion/decision is in place, or is still being brought to the table, in its time. Afterall, is this not a war of spirits and principalities? Or do you not believe that you are a spiritual being?

Do you discard anything that does not concure with you belief system, without investigating?
If so why?
isn't that what religion does all the time? isn't that why you are trying to discredit carbon dating? I have seen the facts and made a choice I will choose common sense not fairy tails about sky daddies.
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Old 02-12-2012, 01:34 PM
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Old 02-12-2012, 01:35 PM
eastcoast eastcoast is offline
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