Liberials?

[honda450]

You know watching TV and all the Liberials are dumber now than when they were in power. How could you even vote for a guy like Dion? He is an embarassment to our country simuliar to Chreiten, Harper is the first guy that has made any sense to this country since I can remember. Please folks on the up coming election don't vote LIBERIAL. I ain't going to say nothin about that NDP guy whatever his name is.

[BrownBear416]

You might want to turn liberials into Liberals.

[Scott N]

Dion's election as Lieberal leader was an accident, but probably the best result possible for gun owners. If / when the Lieberals are in power again, kiss your semi-autos and handguns goodbye. With Dion as leader, I doubt the Lieberals have a chance to win the next election. What language is Dion speaking any way? Spanglish? His poor communication skills, in English at least, don't make him a particularly attractive candidate IMHO.

The unfortunate part of Canadian politics is that certain parts of the country will ALWAYS vote Lieberal, the greater Toronto area comes to mind, as does Montreal. Hopefully Harper gets a majority during the next election, when ever that may be.

[Okotokian]

Originally Posted by BrownBear416

You might want to turn liberials into Liberals.

Not a great vote of confidence when the fellow counseling how you should vote can't even spell the name of the party he hates. hehehe yeah, I take my advice from a grade 6 graduate. LOL

And what does this have to do with Alberta Outdoorsmen, hunting, fishing, whatever, anyway? If you disagree with a particular Liberal policy position regarding hunting, fire away, but this is just pointless. As for comments on Dion's english.... well, how good is Harper's french? If it's not perfect, I guess he should be disqualified as PM. And no, I'm not a Liberal backer.

[Okotokian]

never mind

[Cordur]

Harpers french is fine. He's not Gilles Duceppe but then again not many people in the world are capable of speaking in such a concise manner. Dion though is another matter altogether. At least Cretien had a legitimate excuse even though it was still poked fun of. If Dion had spent any amount of time outside of Quebec he would have likely been the better for it and probably a strong Liberal leader to boot. Be thankful that someone like Jack Layton doesn't have the inclination to run for the Liberal party leadership since the man is one of the few who lies openly and believes he speaks the truth. I wonder sometimes if he was this way when he was younger and simply came to believe himself in time.

I noticed toady that on the CFC website there is a new announcement stating that the UN country of origin marking decision will be deferred until December 1st 2009 I'm not sure who is responsible for putting this on the back burner, likely hoping it will be forgotten by then but I'd like to thank them. I know a few guys on here were worried it would double the cost of new firearms sales. I think it would have upped the price though not to such an extent. The fact that this legislation is intended to help developing countries with a form of international gun control doesn't really make much of a difference to us. We aren't a major supplier of arms and the amount of arms we import is a drop in the ocean when looking at the overall picture. I don't think many militants will be out fighting with a $1000 Browning when they can get an AK derivative for $100 Just my thoughts though.

[TreeGuy]

Hey Oko, trust me, if Harper's french was even REMOTELLY less than perfect, the CBC et al., we'd be hearing it 24/7! In reality, they are making major gains in Quebec.

Dion just celebrated his first year in power today. He held meetings over the weekend with the party's riding chiefs, and basically told them to prepare for a Febuary election as they are very worried about a March budget full of goodies from an administration that has thus far, done what it said it was going to do.

Many of the non-GTA MP's are very nervous about losing their jobs (a good thing), but the MPs with virtually guarenteed seats are primarily Ignatief backers who are expecting a loss followed by a quick Dion exit. Fortunately, Iggy is as dumb as he is smart (depending on the day).

Has anyone stopped for a minute to think about how much air time Dion has had in the past 12 months? Answer: Virtually NONE! Why? The more that he is exposed to the public, the more his ratings fall. At least Crietien had a certain 'spunk' about him that the public bought into and overcame certain deficiencies.....to say the least.

A six week election with Dion and a cheering media will be very interesting to observe. Harper will destroy him in the debates, and I suspect their entire campaign is planned out already. They are several critical steps ahead both strategically and financially.

The key, is the fact that the left wing vote is split now. It's good to see the shoe on the other foot for a change.

Tree

[honda450]

Yeah ain't the best speller. But Okie I do not see moderator beside your name. There are board rules and I follow them. Perhaps you should read them. You have violated them not me. Spell check that.

[gsteeves]

Say goodbye to or guns if Mr D comes in to power..
He is a joke!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

[rugatika]

Has anyone checked out the Alberta Alliance party. I'm gonna check into them. The Stelmach gang has pretty much run its course. They and Klein before him were nothing but liberals in drag. At least Klein didn't try and hurt industry, even though he spent like a drunken sailor. Stelmach reminds me of Dion. Too weak and ineffectual.

[Nomad]

I've held an Alberta Alliance membership for a few years now and voted for them in the last provincial election. They are a true conservative party rather than the liberal tories in power. They also put their suppoprt behind Ted Morton in the last conservative leadership race. They have a similar platform to the old Reform Party.

[CNP]

Not a great vote of confidence when the fellow counseling how you should vote can't even spell the name of the party he hates. hehehe yeah, I take my advice from a grade 6 graduate. LOL

And what does this have to do with Alberta Outdoorsmen, hunting, fishing, whatever, anyway? If you disagree with a particular Liberal policy position regarding hunting, fire away, but this is just pointless. As for comments on Dion's english.... well, how good is Harper's french? If it's not perfect, I guess he should be disqualified as PM. And no, I'm not a Liberal backer.

And the point to this whole post is?

[Okotokian]

Originally Posted by ehntr

And the point to this whole post is?

My point was, I have this idea that posts here should have something remotely to do with hunting, fishing, trapping, the outdoors, the environment, something like that. If you simply hate a particular politician or party, there are probably better places to post your rant. And I don't think much of people who hate a politician primarily for his accent. God knows there are plenty of other things to dislike Dion for. But when you start pulling out that sort of racist garbage, I don't think much of it. Take it somewhere else.

So that was my point. When people spew garbage, they shouldn't necessarily expect everyone else to agree and eat it.

[270WIN]

Originally Posted by Okotokian

My point was, I have this idea that posts here should have something remotely to do with hunting, fishing, trapping, the outdoors, the environment, something like that. If you simply hate a particular politician or party, there are probably better places to post your rant. And I don't think much of people who hate a politician primarily for his accent. God knows there are plenty of other things to dislike Dion for. But when you start pulling out that sort of racist garbage, I don't think much of it. Take it somewhere else.

So that was my point. When people spew garbage, they shouldn't necessarily expect everyone else to agree and eat it.

There are all kinds of good reasons to hate the Liberals. The fact that they gave us the long gun registy happens to be one of them. That's the connection with hunting, Okie. Hope that explains it for you.

[Okotokian]

Originally Posted by 270WIN

There are all kinds of good reasons to hate the Liberals. The fact that they gave us the long gun registy happens to be one of them. That's the connection with hunting, Okie. Hope that explains it for you.

nevermind

[Donny Bear]

Originally Posted by honda450

Yeah ain't the best speller. But Okie I do not see moderator beside your name. There are board rules and I follow them. Perhaps you should read them. You have violated them not me. Spell check that.

I have a post graduate degree and still can't spell, thank the good Lord for spell check I'm with you all the way honda450 keep up the good work

[TreeGuy]

Originally Posted by Scott N

What language is Dion speaking any way? Spanglish? His poor communication skills, in English at least, don't make him a particularly attractive candidate IMHO.

Is this what you are referring to as racist, Oko?

I believe that Scott was making an honest and relevant point. Why is it only white english speaking men who are racists. Are you aware of the sh*t spewed in the francaphone media about Harper being from the west and NOT speaking French as a first language? Are you aware of the language laws in Quebec? Are you aware of some of the statements and actions taken recently by the Parti Quebecquois and their leader? Sheeze!

I've lived in a city since '95, and have had the opportunity to meet literally thousands of people from many, many different races 'n places, and guess what? Asians, People from the middle east, and even our own Native peoples are a HELL of alot more racist than whites are! Ever heard of the 'Koran'? How about Sharia Law?

Politically incorrect statement? Damn right. Is it inaccurate? No way. Am I painting them all with the same brush? Not trying to as I count people from many different cultures as my friends, but the truth is the truth.

I choose who I like and respect upon who they are as a person. Good folks, like Smarties, come in all different colors, just like bad folks do. Period.

Scott points out that Dion communicates poorly in english, and you call it racist? If I have hit on the quote you were referring to, Oko, then I believe that you owe Scott one hell of an appology, bud.

Tree

[rugatika]

The government of the day has everything to do with hunting, fishing, etc. Who do you think sets environmental policy? licensing, gun ownership, bag limits, etc. Do you think you might have some extra time to hunt and fish if you only had to pay 10% of your money to taxes as opposed to the 50 or 60% we pay now? (Those of us that work anyway)

The government of modern times has intruded into EVERY single aspect of our lives and there is not a topic that is not touched by government. There is NEVER an innapropriate time to slag liberals/Liberals as they are the scourge of the planet. They stand for taking away every little sliver of liberty that has ever existed so that they can tax some more money away from us to run our lives.

Honda's question and point is an excellent one, and one that I have pondered quite often. How can anyone with half a conscience even consider voting for a party that has done so much to cripple this country and her people? I would go so far as saying that the people that vote Liberal are either criminals or traitors.

What do you think of them apples??

FIGHT THE LIBERAL HORDE!!!

[TreeGuy]

Originally Posted by rugatika

FIGHT THE LIBERAL HORDE!!!

WOW! "Broadcasting from a bunker near you...". Rug, if I have to call out my pal Oko, I gotta call ya on this one!

Originally Posted by rugatika

I would go so far as saying that the people that vote Liberal are either criminals or traitors.

I disagree. This is a free country, and stupid should not/could not be regulated......just ask Darwin!

The thing that keeps a democracy vibrant and honest is a strong opposition. This is easily viewed on the provincial level here in Alberta. Liberal-minded individuals overran the conservtives (can't beat 'em join 'em) because they were well aware of the hatred associated with the Liberal brand in this province due to the NEP. A strong opposition is absolutly VITAL in keeping a ruling party honest (mostly). I'll leave it at that.

Up until Trudeau, the liberal party of Canada had a long and fairly respectable history of being an honorable party with an ideology I personally do not adhere to. However, they had integriety and a bit of vision.

Since Trudeau, they have indeed intruded, and tried to micro-manage every aspect of a Canadian's life. They taxed us to death in order to fund their programs of social engineering. We were never smart enough to decide for ourselves, therefore the state must decide for you. That attitude is incredibly consistant with Trudeau's ideological support of communism. Did you know that Castro was an honorary pallbearer at his funeral? We as a country may never be able to get over the fingerprints of this terrible little man.

I guess my point is, Rug, that without a strong opposition, a democracy just becomes another tinpot dictatorship. Which is worse?

Tree

[rugatika]

However, with democracy comes responsibility. And frankly, people that vote Liberal would by the very nature of their vote seem to be incapable of handling that responsibilty.

Democracy and freedom are two separate entities. Previous successive governements in Canada have slowly with the tacit consent of the Canadian electorate taken away our freedoms in return for very little. The government has grown to be a bloated cesspool of inefficiency, with the Liberals/liberals rolling in it like the proverbial pigs. I do not hold conservatives blameless but they are at least trying to slowly move this country back in the right direction.

With democracy people must take the time to learn the pitfalls of socialism and what eventually happens to all countries that go down this path.

"A democracy cannot exist as a permanent form of government. It can only exist until the voters discover that they can vote themselves largesse from the public treasury. From that moment on, the majority always votes for the candidates promising the most benefits from the public treasury with the result that a democracy always collapses over loose fiscal policy, always followed by a dictatorship. The average age of the world's greatest civilizations has been 200 years.
Great nations rise and fall. The people go from bondage to spiritual truth, to great courage, from courage to liberty, from liberty to abundance, from abundance to selfishness, from selfishness to complacency, from complacency to apathy, from apathy to dependence, from dependence back again to bondage. " Author unknown, although has been attributed to a Professor Alexander Tytler from Scotland in the 1700's.

Tree my argument is not with democracy. My argument is with the people who think it is acceptable to vote for thieves on the condition that they get some of the booty the thieves have liberated. (eg: "I'm voting Liberal, because they will STEAL money from honest hard working people and use that money to pay for daycare for my kids.") or (I'm voting Liberal because they will relieve me of the responsibility of looking after my own safety by disarming the citizens.)

The success of a democracy relies on an informed electorate. By not living up to this responsibility people are failing the one duty that is required of a citizen living in a democracy.

Hope that kinda makes sense. I'm tired

[TreeGuy]

Originally Posted by rugatika

Great nations rise and fall. The people go from bondage to spiritual truth, to great courage, from courage to liberty, from liberty to abundance, from abundance to selfishness, from selfishness to complacency, from complacency to apathy, from apathy to dependence, from dependence back again to bondage. " Author unknown, although has been attributed to a Professor Alexander Tytler from Scotland in the 1700's.

What a great and true quote. Now I'm REALLY going from memory here, but in the history of mankind, there have been 29 (?) 'advanced' civilizations rise and fall. Romans, Egyptians, Mayans, Incans, etc. In those times, and it's largely symbolic now, but the downfall came when politicians supplanted the warriors who built and safeguarded the foundations of their culture. This was the point when the culture went from fighting for survival, to declaring their founding fathers 'savages' or 'dinosaurs'. Enlightenment and cultural learnings were of greater value than the blood spilt on their behalf. This is when 'intellectuals' took over. Ergo, we see the pattern that the above quote describes.

I would put the culture of Canada between apathy and dependancy. Scary.

Histoy has shown time and time again that civilizations have a self-life. History has also show that those who do not learn from it are doomed to repeat it.

Is there a solution?

Tree

PS Thats some pretty good stuff, Rug!

[rugatika]

Good call Tree. That's about where I see Canada right now too. Somewhere between apathy and dependence.

The only solution I can see is for all Canadians to learn what happens when we start voting ourselves money from other people. It's basically legalized theft.

Another thing. I think we should get rid of income tax. A tax on effort only discourages people from working. Replace it with a sales tax or other FAIR tax of some sort. It'll never happen though, and the cycle will repeat itself. Just depends on what we want for our children I guess.

[bullwinkle]

Brain dead post,Good night!!!

[brownbomber]

Hey guys lots of questions and statements i need to ask and make about some of the posts guys. I guess my first one would be about the traitors and criminals being anyone who votes liberal. So what would our alternatives be? I like having choices be they good or bad. I think most people are capable of making a informed decision on what they believe. If they make the wrong choice so be it, that doesn't make them traitors. I believe in democracy and a democracy with only one party you can vote for without being a traitor makes it what??? Hey i usually vote conservative but sometimes I don't, didn't last time because the guy in my riding was a real clown. I still believe in the fundamental beliefs and policies of the conservative party but could not bring myself to vote for someone i had zero confidence in to represent me to the best of his ability. I guess my next question would be this, would this qualify me as a criminal or traitor.....for taking a moral stand?? For standing up for what i believe in?? And who qualifies as a informed member of the electorate?? People who believe in things the same way you do.

Next issue. About taxes/time working. I think most peoples time on the job wouldn't change too much no matter what the tax percentage was or is. I don't believe most people have the luxury of setting their own hours and determining that they have made enough money now so they don't have to work much longer. That kinda sounds like what some guys do when the ask for a layoff once the have enough hours to collect e.i. Which isn't very cool. Sign me up where you work by the way, i've made well into the 6 figures at some points in my life and never nearly approached 50% taxable income.

Dion's english. His english skills are disgraceful as leader of a national political party. My french is not nearly good enough to comment on Harpers french, but he's got my two years of high school french beat very easily. I didn't think it was a overly racist comment by treeguy maybe a little extreme, as someone who wasn't a fan of steve h might mock him for his almost robotic monotone voice or non vibrant way about him. But yeah gotta agree on the language laws in quebec, those are totally bogus....chinese restraunts having to have the sign in french for an example at least 65% larger than any english or chinese writing no matter how chinese or anglophone the neighbourhood the business is located in. Very uncool.

Okay running out of time but to tree guy saying everyone is more racist than white people is a little off base. I know a lot of racist native people and i know a lot of racist white people and a lot of racist asian people. I think the numbers are pretty much even. With a higher percentage of intolerance to people in the older age bracket with a steady decrease into the younger age groups. That is one way society has improved, young people are seeing a lot less of white people or brown people or whatever and just seeing people and there is nothing wrong with that.

Taxes, wouldn't a fair tax system be everyone pays the same percentage no matter what. If you make 20,000 or 200,000 if you have no kids or 10 kids, if you own a farm or a business if you, no matter what part of the country you from or racial background or whatever same percentage. You are where you are because of your choices. You choose to have kids or not, you choose to work hard or take it easy, you choose to stay in the farming game or take over the farm no matter how little you make, you choose to start a business. And like George Jones said I've Had Choices.

[Cordur]

I can't say that a person who votes Liberal is completely out to lunch. When we had the choice of Stockwell Day or Paul Martin it was a rather tough call. Had John Manley stepped up to the plate then I would have voted Liberal. It says a lot that he would not lead a party that was so corrupt. There are good things that can be accomplished by any party. I remember my grandfather saying that at one time a person could not really tell much of a difference between Liberals and Conservatives. I think the foundations of Canadas government are based on a good excuse to drink and fight it out but in the end the good of all Canadians was put foremost. I believe at times that this changed with Trudeau but maybe WWII was the the beginning of bad times to come.

Some people like to blame Mulroney for their problems today. But as far as I can remember the money was rolling in Canada during his term. We can probably thank his finance minister Mr. Wilson instead of him, but at least he knew who to appoint. I bet Wilson cried when the Cretien and Martin took over his hard work. That man was a true Canadian.

Lets just pretend that Quebec isn't really a part of Canada but some communist state like Cuba. Because quite frankly I don't know how you can convince people to support laws like they have there without wondering when you'll be on par with the KGB. Something has been impairing the thinking in Quebec and I think it's come in the form of lies. When Quebec becomes firearms free I'll wager car bombings go up 200%

Anyways the Harper government will be doing the right thing the more they give power back to the provinces. I think that a smaller group of voters is able to distinguish what it is that they want from their leaders. Albertans know what they want or need more than people in New Brunswick. Hopefully come our next election we can see some real progress being made. I just hope that Harper doesn't have to degrade himself too much to get a majority from the Liberal/NDP/Quebecois voters.

btw don't you all wish the Green Party was more like the British version? I don't really care to be called evil for working for a living and you couldn't pay me enough to give a wild grizzly bear a hug.

[rugatika]

BB. Maybe the criminal/traitor remark was a little harsh. The Liberals have a long record of ruling for the sake of maintaining power and have steered Canada away from personal responsibility to dependence on government. This is a downward spiral that ends in pure socialism. The Liberal party as it now stands, and has stood for the last 40yrs has been no friend to freedom loving Canadians.

50% tax. Add these all up. Provincial sales tax (other than AB), federal and provincial income tax, property tax, gas taxes, GST, tourist taxes on hotels, EI, pension, health premiums etc etc. Now add in the cost of hiring an accountant to do your taxes. (I have a business and spend over 1200 bucks a yr for an accountant). Plus I spend about 50 hours per year tracking my GST etc for the government. I believe tax freedom day for the avg Canadian is around the end of June. That is to say we work from January to June for the sole purpose of paying taxes. After that we get to keep the rest. BTW:Myself and lots of people I work with set our own hours (within reason)

As to informed voting public...I don't expect everyone to have the same beliefs I do, but I don't think it is alright for people to be able to vote money away from me to fund their lives and lack of responsibility for it. Why should I have to work extra to pay daycare for a couple yuppies driving a volvo and a bmw?? I don't think it is too much to ask that the voting public have a rudimentary understanding of the writings of some of the major political philosophers (Tocqueville, Mill, Locke, Jefferson, Marx etc) and how an economy works.

I can respect you for voting for the individual, unfortunately in this country, the individual MP does not in practice typically represent his consituents. He is a party member and will typically toe the party line (with some rare exceptions).

The fair tax system I like the best would be a 20% sales tax (or whatever the number works out to) You only pay tax when you buy something. Why should someone that makes 500,000 bucks a year pay a higher percentage than someone that makes 50,000 bucks a year. They both use the same government services. It's likely the richer person is contributing more to the economy through jobs and the larger amount of money he spends. Additionally this is a much more visible tax and people would be more aware of how much of their money was going to the government. As you pointed out, you were unaware of just how much of your money was going to pay for the CBC, artists, gold watches, etc.

Anyways, good points and good discussion.

BTW, I don't think the Cons are perfect either. They are becoming quite adept at buying votes with our own money, just like several governments before them. I just think it's time Canadians took some responsibility for themselves and the future of our country and children and paid more attention to the ramifications of how they vote beyond what gets promised to them out of the government coffers.

[rugatika]

If you're really interested...

F.A. Hayek - "The Road to Serfdom"

Milton and Rose Friedman - "Free to Choose:A Personal Statement"

Both do a good job of explaining why free markets are important, and why gov't should stay out for the most part.

[TreeGuy]

As always BB, well written. I just need to clarify a couple of things.

Originally Posted by brownbomber

I didn't think it was a overly racist comment by treeguy maybe a little extreme, as someone who wasn't a fan of steve h might mock him for his almost robotic monotone voice or non vibrant way about him.

That statement was a quote by Scott that I was defending against Oko calling it a racist statement......it wasn't.

Originally Posted by brownbomber

Okay running out of time but to tree guy saying everyone is more racist than white people is a little off base. I know a lot of racist native people and i know a lot of racist white people and a lot of racist asian people. I think the numbers are pretty much even. With a higher percentage of intolerance to people in the older age bracket with a steady decrease into the younger age groups. That is one way society has improved, young people are seeing a lot less of white people or brown people or whatever and just seeing people and there is nothing wrong with that.

I agree 100%. What I should have added to my comments was a great big astrix. Meaning that my expressed opinion was based entirely upon my OWN personal experiences within an URBAN setting. I stand by what I said. I'd be more that happy to have an honest discussion about racism with you via PM. However the theme of this thread is not that.

Rug and Cord, well said once again. Tons of reading, but this is a pretty good thread.

Tree

[Scott N]

Thanks for defending my above post TreeGuy... I'm not sure if Okotokian's comments were directed at my post or not, but as you correctly point out, being French, or Quebecois, or a Francophone isn't a race. It doesn't change the fact that Dion is a terrible communicator in the English language and he will have serious problems getting the Liberal's message out whenever the next election is called. That is assuming that his own party hasn't stabbed him in the back by then. As a gun owner, that is a good thing as far as I'm concerned.

I'm not trying to Flame you Okotokian, but the Liberals are extremely anti-gun. This is the political party that promised to "Ban all handguns" during the last election. They are also the party that were going to implement a policy to "Ban semi-autos" during their last policy convention because "Semi-autos are already illegal for hunting in Canada, therefore private citizens should not be allowed to own them." Apparently they have never heard of a Browning Auto 5 before.

Then again, it's the same party that gave as that wonderfully useless long gun registry. It will "only" cost 1.5 million. The Liberal's policies on gun control are backwards... they want to keep track of all the legal gun owners and their firearms instead of keeping track of dirt bags like James Roszco, gang members, etc. The end game for the Liberals is to eventually ban all private firearm ownership in Canada. After all... "If it only saves one life." Allan Rock, the guy who came up with the gun registry scheme, is on the record as saying "I believe that only the police and military should have guns." Their policies don't have to be effective, but what the heck, if it buys them a few votes from soccer moms in Toronto, it doesn't matter that they trample on the long held traditions of hunting and shooting in Canada.

It's nice to see a lot of people are aware of how dangerous the Liberals are to our hunting and shooting heritage... we need to do everything we can to keep the Liberals from power again anytime soon if we want our sons and daughters to be hunting in future years.

[rugatika]

To further clarify why voting the individual can have disastrous results.

BB. Let's say your vote for the "individual" in you particular riding resulted in that Liberal MP getting elected. Now lets further assume that by electing that MP gave the Liberals a majority and thus gave them the power to install all of their policies. Hello gun registry II. Goodbye handguns, semi-auto's, etc etc.

Just one of the pitfalls of how our Canadian parliamentary system works. It may seem like we're voting for the individual, but in reality and in practice we are voting for a party and the Prime Minister. Read..."The Friendly Dictator" can't remember who wrote it.