Do animals reason?

[albertadave]

This came up on another thread and I'm curious what people think. Do they have the ability to reason? Do they understand life and death?ect. I believe as hunters and outdoors people we are a little more in tune with animals and nature than the average person. I have my thoughts on the topic (see national parks thread on hunting forum) but I'm curious what yours are.

[Chet]

I sure think so. When you try push a whitetail and he consistently tries to double back on you instead of just running blindly out the other end of the bush you have to think he knows the consequences of going out the way you want him to go. There are tons of examples of animals thnking things through.

[Walleyes]

Not reason just instinct they have been taught that cover is good and open bad...

I say no way animals can not reason.. Its what separates us from them..

[TheClash]

i like to think i can see my dog "thinking" and trying to figure stuff out.....i don't think it is actual reasoning....but a thought process, instinct and learned responses


i also never see pheasants on opening day...but the day before i see tons hahahaha


and how many of us have seen deer casually checking us out from the safety of macintyre's ranch hahaha

[CNP]

I don't know about that...where in the animal kingdom does sentience begin? Interesting...

Is a deers behavior totally instinctive...not learned? I believe a deer will rely on instinct but will survive to be an older deer by applying learned experience. We know they are capable of learning...

[Donny Bear]

Not sure: but I know my brittany has problem solving skills will move things around to improve access to things he wants. He knew what turns on the fire in the fire place the first time he saw the switch flipped thats a pain. He pouts and has the ability to comunicate his disaproval he can stay mad for extended periods of time. Lots of things seem to indicate that some animals do think and to a lesser extent reason. I was reading the thread that lead to this and someone said animals / Elk would not get hit on the road if they could reason something to that effect my question would have been then why do people keep getting killed on the roads we can reason!

[wookie]

Originally Posted by TheClash

i like to think i can see my dog "thinking" and trying to figure stuff out.....i don't think it is actual reasoning....but a thought process, instinct and learned responses

i also never see pheasants on opening day...but the day before i see tons hahahaha


and how many of us have seen deer casually checking us out from the safety of macintyre's ranch hahaha

rea·son (rē'zən) Pronunciation Key
n.
The basis or motive for an action, decision, or conviction.

Pretty similar. Of course animals reason.

[Donny Bear]

Originally Posted by wookie

rea·son (rē'zən) Pronunciation Key
n.
The basis or motive for an action, decision, or conviction.

Pretty similar. Of course animals reason.

Oh sure Wookie go ahead make it simple

[sbtennex]

The difference between instinctive reacting and reasoning is a bit difficult to pinpoint. Real big deer get that way because they're smart - or are they? They survive by reacting to the world around them with patterned responses - their particular habits are successful. If they weren't, they wouldn't make it and bagging a particular deer is as simple as observing them and figuring out their habits. Unfortunately that simplicity is offset by the fact that the most successful bucks' habits revolve around their clocks - the more nocturnal they are the safer they are, so these deer are lucky, not smart. Deer evolved as prey, not predator, so their responses are programmed for escape, for survival. A horse thinks, according to biopsychologists. How far behind the horse could an elk be on the evolutionary scale? Or a mature buck? A pig is supposed to be "smart" but does it reason? No. It reacts successfully to minimal input, to inputs that promote behavior that satisfies the pig's needs. All the same, to give a game animal credit by suggesting it reasons is to bestow it with an ability to think that generally is reserved for humans (and I'm thinking not all of them, as I and some of my buddies are glaring proof of!!!)

[Walleyes]

Yah like sbtennex said.. Isn't that what I said,, funny it sounded like that in my head when I was typing it out...

[nekred]

Behaviour is a response to stimuli.....
A is present.....Action B is taken.....

Reason... using the def provided... basis for a decision....

A happens Options are B and C.... organism has no way of knowing through prior experience which is better.... but by "reasoning" it out based on available information chooses better method. the problem is this is not 100%

I guess the real question is are anmals capabe of making decisions based on logic nstead of experience or instinct.... vey grey area that is cinstantly explored by animal behaviourists every day......

here is an example.... when I was a kid my border collie used to catch mice.... if she did not feel like eating them she would drop them in a metal 5 gallon pail that had grain in it.... until she was hungry and then go eat the mouse sometimes a few days later... I came by one day and there was 6 mice in the pail....

was this a result of instinct, experience, or logic?.....

How did she know to use a metal pail to store them live.... The grain was just there.... but she continued to do this her whole life...

[Limeyhunter]

Here's what I think defines reason in my mind. I think I have reasoned it out. Not a dictionary definition, just mine. If an animal is faced with the same decision on a number of occasions and has a number of options and always selects the same option, I think that is instinct. If they vary the option they select, there must be some process that makes them select one over the other. Therefore there must be some reasoning process going on.

I tried to take a whitetail buck in 310 this year. The first time, the wind was in my favor, and I snuck up over a ridge. I stood on a twig at the last moment and it took off East to what I later figured was one of its feeding grounds. I am guessing the noise triggered his fight or flight mechanism and he flew. He decided that food was a good idea and off he went. A week later I tried the same thing, did the same thing, (I know, maybe I can’t reason doing the same stupid thing twice, but that is a another discussion! ) This time he took off like the wind East across some open fields and the last thing I saw was him flagging goodbye about two fields away. He must have figured that as the same thing happened twice, he had better get some more distance.

Another more complex example is when animals use tools. I have been reading quite a bit of late about crows and chimps using tools. Even if the animal learns by watching others and does not reason that if I put the stick in the ants nest ants will crawl on it and I can eat them. One animal at some point in the past must have reasoned that idea. For me when an animal uses tools, it is a clear indicator they have reason. Of course there are not many that can!

Limey.

[Chet]

A horse thinks, according to biopsychologists. How far behind the horse could an elk be on the evolutionary scale?

Good question. Funny how much time I've spent cussing at my horse trying to make it do what I want to help me kill Elk, that seem to out-smart me regulary. Then again, I suppose it would be harder to train an Elk to be good at hunting horses.

[Waxy]

I don't know if I would compare it to human consciousness and reasoning, but you'd have a hard time convincing me that animals are not capable of basic thought and reasoning.

From my dogs to deer, they all interact with the world around them every day. From what I've seen, the interaction can't be written off as simple instinct, because they make choices and don't always react the same way to any particular scenario.

I also don't think there's much doubt that they have the ability to learn from their experiences. Based on that acquired knowledge and the choice it gives them in their behaviour, it would seem to me that there must be some form or reason and decision making involved in their actions.

I think this is a fascinating topic, I wish I knew more about it.

Waxy

[T-Bone]

I have a dogo argentino (dog) Not only can he think he also has the capability to figure out problems. When I get home he will bring me his favourite bone and offer it to me. He can open the door flush the toilet etc. I believe like a small child they can learn and solve problems. Sure some of its instinct but he also has moods like a person. I can give him heck for some thing not by raising my voice but just by talking to him. He seems to have a grasp on the english language. Some days he will voice his displeasure by looking at me and speaking. Not loud but as if he is talking to me. I really don't know but I feel as if he understands what i'm saying. Go figure

[Bull Shooter]

A while back, while discussing slaughter houses and such, SharpEdge provided me with Temple Grandin's name and suggested I read a book called "Animals in Transition". I did a bit of research (just a bit) on Dr. Grandin and it would appear that her works might shed some light on this topic.

Hopefully, SharpEdge sees the topic as it appears he has a bit of background on her works. What I found interesting was that PETA had given her some support or an endorsement and yet (among other things) she designs systems for slaughter houses. Might be worth a look. Regards, Mike

[Cordur]

I watched a documentary on this. It was about what an animal can learn, and then pass on to its own species through either teaching or genetically. Spiders can work out the way to get to prey if given two starting points with only one choice being right. I think it was somewhere in the 80-90% range. Then they showed birds being fed pieces of bread. One of them somehow figured out it was better to take a piece of bread and instead of eating it, float it on top of the water for bait and eat the fish that came to it. They said what the bird learned would not be passed on to the other birds because they did not learn from each other.

I think some animals can think, reason and learn and others can't. We don't reason very well at first because we haven't learned of consequences. A child buns his hand on the stove. His parents told him it would happen. Next they tell him not to stick a piece of metal into the electrical socket. He is then able to reason that they warned him the first time and this time might go better if he listens. But if the electrical socket came first and then the child died as a result, do we say they were unable to reason? Same with a deer that normally gets shot once. If you shot a deer in the leg with him looking at you then next year point a rifle at him he probably would take time to look at you. You can't reason without learning first.

[sbtennex]

Waxy: It is a fascinating topic - it's precisely what took me into university. Unfortunately it didn't keep me there! There are many at school and long past who study exactly this sort of question for decades - on single species. The problem for us laymen is that we can only guess - surprise, surprise that's what the people who study animal behavior do. Difference is that their guesses are a whole lot more educated. We've all seen on TV and read about the high profile studies that typically involve whales or porpoises, but again all the data in the world doesn't and can't differentiate between cognitive thought, reasoning or instinctual response. To repeat what I suggested, the successful escape for a prey species will be repeated not necessarily the same way each time, but generally the same. Each incident will introduce a whole bunch of different variables. Don't forget that game animals are generally prey and everything from wind direction, time of day, their motive for being in that place at that particular time, familiarity with their immediate surroundings and on and on will all play a part in their immediate response. Ever tried to figure out Canada geese? I rest my case!!!!

[Bobby B.]

According to all university studies pertaining to 'reason', animals do not possess this ability. They can remember to perform simple tasks but they are incapable of abstract reasoning. For example, they did teach ASL to a chimp named Koko (hopefully my memory is correct here) and Koko was able to sign and even to string a couple signs together. But, Koko was unable to converse about abstract events. In fact, if my memory serves me correctly, Koko would search the other side of the mirror in a vain attempt to locate the chimp he saw. Koko was never able to reason out why the chimp in the mirror was never behind the mirror.

Bobby B.

[duffy4]

As so often happens in our disgussions, defining what we are disgussing is so important. Think, reason, figure out, learn, all these terms mean different things to different people.

Someone above talked about the difference between learning something simple from an experience and taking a situation and logically figuring out what to do. I agre that deer and elk and such can do the former to some extent but not much of the later.

At our gun club near Rocky, one has to chase deer off the range once in awhile so you can continue to shoot targets. These deer do not know that gunfire can kill them. Or they have learned that the sharp loud noises they sometimes hear, do not seam to pose any threat to them. I dout that they would move off the range during the gun season and all of a sudden "think" we better be careful or we might get shot.

Robin in Rocky By the way it was good of "delburnedave" to start a new thread on this topic rather than continuing with the "highjacking" on the other thread.(not that he was responsible for it)

[sbtennex]

Originally Posted by Bobby B.

According to all university studies pertaining to 'reason', animals do not possess this ability. They can remember to perform simple tasks but they are incapable of abstract reasoning. For example, they did teach ASL to a chimp named Koko (hopefully my memory is correct here) and Koko was able to sign and even to string a couple signs together. But, Koko was unable to converse about abstract events. In fact, if my memory serves me correctly, Koko would search the other side of the mirror in a vain attempt to locate the chimp he saw. Koko was never able to reason out why the chimp in the mirror was never behind the mirror.

Bobby B.

Bob: Are you my brother, like my real brother Doctor Bob??????? Better yet! If memory serves, the chimp was Kiko and Koko was a gorilla. As far as "all" university studies go, the jury ain't all convinced as to the capability of (abstract??) reasoning. It gets into the arena of semantics, an area we don't care to delve into I'm sure - leads to philosophy and other strange things. Abstract I think we can reserve for people, and more realistically people who tend to involve themselves in the arts in their various forms
BTW, I think handloading's an art too, like caping or refinishing a nice stock

[bignose]

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/science/nature/7124156.stm

made me think ...

B

As I've written before on this great forum. Dr. Temple Grandin's book, "Animals in Translation" ought to be required reading. Chapter 6, How Animals Think, is particularly revealing IMO.
ISBN 0-7432-4769-8

Sharpedge

[thumper]

I've often wondered why animals that seem to be the 'smartest' as far as eluding close approach when hunting them in the wild - for instance mountain sheep or grizzly bears, - also seem to be some of the first to recognize that people are not a threat, and allow close approach when protected within the national parks or other refuges (posted land for instance).

Animals that I consider a little less 'smart', like mountain goats for instance, don't seem to tolerate close approach whether they're protected or not.

But on the other hand, if grizzly bears are so smart that they are virtual ghosts when hunted, then why don't they get out of the way when a train blowing it's whistle is bearing down on them? Seems a lot get schmucked on the tracks.

[Bobby B.]

sbtennex, it's been awhile since I was a Arts student, 25 years ago atleast. I completed a BA Sp degree with a Sociology major and a History minor. Went on to do a partial LLB and a complted B ED. Can't recall much of the factual material but have a firm grasp still on the concepts. One of the first things one realizes in University is that any side of an argument can be presented effectively whether one personally supports that side or not. It's one of the more interesting segments of the LSAT.

Typing one's thoughts on any given topic is far to slow and laborious for the intent of this discussion let alone the complex nature of the question 'do animals reason'. This more more the the material for a thesis than a general discussion.

Bobby B.

[Cordur]

You know if a person wanted to see any kind of reasoning in an animal I'd probably start with studying the octopus. You only need to read a few studies and watch a couple of videos to be extremely frightened of these predators. They are smart and learn fast. But beyond that they are able to problem solve and think things through before they act. One of the studies in particular was of missing fish from a tank. They kept losing fish at night and so set up a camera. Caught the octopus opening its tank walking across the floor opening another tank having a little snack, close up the fish tank and walk back over to its own tank and close the lid behind itself. Why would it bother to cover its tracks. How did it figure out that it could have a snack in this manner? Maybe I don't know what abstract reasoning is, but this seems to have something to do with it. There are literally hundreds of stories like this involving these animals. We're probably lucky they haven't learned to talk as they're devious enough.

Probably planning to take over the world as we speak....

[ctd]

the big deer gets big because he eats alot.
The deer that gets hit by a vehicle on a road is a stupid deer,
a bear who ignores a trains whistle is either proccupied and or is deaf or stupid.

The big human gets big beacuse they eat alot,
the human who gets hit by a vehicle on a road is a stupid human
a human who ignores a train whistle is dead.

Pretty simple. To me all animals have thought and reasoning. They all take risks, some smarter then others. Some learn to adaprt as the situtaion changes other out right refuse to. Those that refuese to die be it a human, deer, bear, fish.

The deer that gets hit by a vehicle on a road is a stupid deer,

I always ask my son when i see a dead deer on the road why do you think its dead .Then i would tell him becuase it didnt look both ways before crossing the road i think it has sunk into his brain now .