Is cartridge selection a moot point?

[North of 53]

Originally Posted by elkhunter11

The obvious question, is why wouldn't it do the job 100% of the time?

Well it would have as much to do with the gun set up as the cartridge. Like I said there needs to be a little bit of common sense used. I have 22-250 with a 1:8 twist that I don't take in the bush because the bullet blows up if hits a thick shadow. But that gun sure is nice in the open field. I have 45-70 that's great in the bush but not so great out in the open with a longer shot. My 30-06 only has a 1.5-4.5 scope on it so not great for a longer shot. I have 300 RUM that is set up for shooting out well past 500 yards. The 300 RUM does pack a lot more punch out past 500 yards than my 30-06 but in truth I have only shot 5 deer out past 500 and have shot over a 100 deer inside 300 yards. I have do doubt that if I wanted to set up a 30-06 to shoot deer out well past 500yard I would have any trouble doing so. I believe it was stated in the original post that its a system not just the gun. I think people tend to set up there shooting system to favor one kind of shooting or another that best suits there gun. That does not mean that some else could not set up the same gun a total different way more suitable for another type of hunting.

[KegRiver]

Originally Posted by sheephunter

Yikes, the pants are coming down and the tape measure is coming out.....

LOL Yup!

Me and my 303 or 30 30 at a 200 yard limit are far outclassed in this crowd.
But I still get what I shoot at.

Truth is I have heard a lot of folks brag about making 500 yard shots, I've seen those same folks miss multiple shots at 400 yards or less. But to be fair, I have also seen a few, a very few successful attempts at 400 yards and more.

Maybe I've never met a real hunter. Or maybe most folks don't know what a real hunter is. Hard for a man to match a cats hunting skills and cats don't take long shots.

[elkhunter11]

lol...you can always tell when you are getting frustrated elk...you go from the analytical cartridge guy to the guy that resorts to pointless personal shots.

Surely even you can see who started with the personal shot in the form of his little story.I simply responded in kind.He responded with a witty comment,so I did as well.Since you thought that his witty comment was so funny,I didn't want to see you left out,so I found a way to include you.

If it was my name being used instead of yours,you would be laughing your head off, instead you are obviously ****ed off and trying to respond with a witty comment of your own to get back at me.

Meanwhile, I am the one laughing the most about the present situation.As I said,if it wasn't your name being used,you would be laughing yourself.But obviously,you aren't.

[elkhunter11]

Truth is I have heard a lot of folks brag about making 500 yard shots, I've seen those same folks miss multiple shots at 400 yards or less. But to be fair, I have also seen a few, a very few successful attempts at 400 yards and more.

Maybe I've never met a real hunter. Or maybe most folks don't know what a real hunter is. Hard for a man to match a cats hunting skills and cats don't take long shots.

Well I have read where someone bragging about some 80"+ Canada moose on this forum ,but I haven't seen one,or a picture of one for that matter.Maybe they exist,or maybe the person that did the bragging doesn't know how to measure 80".I guess that we will never know for sure.

[elkhunter11]

I have 22-250 with a 1:8 twist that I don't take in the bush because the bullet blows up if hits a thick shadow. But that gun sure is nice in the open field. I have 45-70 that's great in the bush but not so great out in the open with a longer shot. My 30-06 only has a 1.5-4.5 scope on it so not great for a longer shot. I have 300 RUM that is set up for shooting out well past 500 yards.

So if you mounted the same scope on each rifle,say a 3-9 scope suitable for an all around hunting rifle,would all four cartridges do an equal job,at the same ranges,under the same conditions,on all big game animals?If so,cartridge selection is a moot point to you.If one or more cartridges would ,in your opinion, provide an advantage, then would cartridge selection still be moot point in your opinion?

[KegRiver]

Originally Posted by elkhunter11

Well I have read where someone bragging about some 80"+ Canada moose on this forum ,but I haven't seen one,or a picture of one for that matter.Maybe they exist,or maybe the person that did the bragging doesn't know how to measure 80".I guess that we will never know for sure.

Now who is taking personal shots?

If you were to check that thread you would find that I said 64" not 80"

And you are right. I have not posted a photo yet. I made no secret of the fact that I did not have a photo and that it would be a while before I could go look for those antlers.

Frankly that was a low blow. Is that the sort of "sportsman" you are?

[duffy4]

Chuck I like most of your post and you have some great pictures of some great trophies. But why don't you smile once in awhile.


I do not agree that cartridge selection is a moot point. That is far to much a "blanket statement"

I reckon that all the fine old and new cartridges we have today can be placed into a few different categories or classes.

If you want to hunt coyotes and fox and salvage the pelts you go to that "class" of cartridges and select one and select a bullet that will do the job of killing at a decent range and not ripping fur apart.(.222, 223, 22.250, .204, 220swift, maybe 218 bee, .22 hornet...)

If all you want to shoot is deer and pronghorn there is a large class of cartridges for that.

If moose and elk are your meat you may want to step up in cartridge and bullet weight.

Like someone said above you just have to use some ball park discretion.

You can kill a fly with a hammer or a chopstick, but a fly swatter is probably a better choice.

You can kill an antelope with a .22 rimfire or a 458 mag. but I think most would agree that a .270 would be a better choice.

[catnthehat]

Duffy, to be fair I think Chuck is talking about big game hunting only in his first post, and I have to agree, for a general big game gun, cartridge selection is not nearly so important as some would believe.

The same gun that is a 500 yard plus shooter is no more as well equipped for a fast shot in side 50 yards as a 30-06 that is zeroed at 200 is at 500 yards, but both will do the job if in the short range the shooter knows the rifle well enough, and is able to range the animal.
I know, because I have killed a deer at 35 yards and at 610 using one rifle .
That was a long range rig , a Browning single shot chambered in
6.5 WSM. with a 28" barrel.
On the short shot the rifle was zeroed at 500 , I put the 140 XLC
(yup, I was shooting a Barnes bullet!!) into its pelvis without smashing up the plumbing.
The deer was facing away from me , looking back.
On the long shot it was a matter of taking a bit of time after ranging the animal, doping the wind, and dropping it. Bullet that time e was a Sierra 150 Game King.
I also shot a mule deer with the same rifle but a different scope at a hair over 370 from a kneeling position on a steep uphill angle.
That rifle was not one to carry around in the bush for sure, but if you had a boat or quad as transport it was okay.
On the flip side, I have shot many deer with a 30'06 inside 200 without needing to think about it too much, and if I had to, I could have made a 500 yard shot with that rifle, just never had the chance.
But, that '06 was a lot nicer to hunt everywhere with than the big Browning.

My point is, I think Chuck was talking about "normal" hunting conditions, not either end of the spectrum, and nobody can argue the fact that a properly set up rifle in an accepted big game calibre won't do the job for "normal "' hunting conditions - let's call "'normal" inside 500.

I also think what you prefer to hunt with has a lot more to do with "what is best", as well.
Discussions are good, but when we start picking apart certain parts of a person's statement, and drift the thread a bit, things get sideways, and that seems to happen a lot.
When that does happen, the original point of the post seems to get lost, Ii think.
Cat

[Stinky Coyote]

oh that was funny

chuck has alot of the same experience over and over.....and over, i making up for lost time since i missed about 15 years of hunting due to life circumstances but i did the iron sighted thing for first couple years at 'big game' as a kid with a rem 700 bdl 30-06 and killed the first 3 things i pointed it at when, two whitetails and a big black bear

years of experience alot of guys here can beat me, at the same time, doing same thing over and over....after a couple times does it really add up to that much more? i think he's bored and this is his way of having people motivate him to try plastic rifles in wsm cartridges because they rock!.....its just denial

when i got back into it later in life i was whacking and stacking with the bow, still am, this firearms stuff is a walk in the park lol, since i started with the long range set up every single thing i've dialed up has been every bit as good as i expect and then some, sometimes alive but most times not as just doing due diligence and staying sharp, always come away with a big smile on my face, as i said, walk in the park

cartridge selection is only moot if you want it to be lol, you can whack and stack at any range, we know chucks and we know the 303 guy is inside 200, blah blah, chuck wants it to be moot....and he's right, it is for him

p.s. mine is really only about 3" long fyi

[elkhunter11]

Now who is taking personal shots?

If you never mentioned 80"+ moose,why would you assume that I was referring to you.I was just pointing out that until something is proven to us,we may assume that it isn't real and that people are exaggerating,either their abilities to make long shots,or perhaps , the size of a moose.

Frankly that was a low blow. Is that the sort of "sportsman" you are?

Since no names were mentioned,and you maintain that you never mentioned an 80"+ moose,how could it be taken personally by anyone?Is it any different than:

Maybe I've never met a real hunter. Or maybe most folks don't know what a real hunter is.

[North of 53]

Originally Posted by elkhunter11

So if you mounted the same scope on each rifle,say a 3-9 scope suitable for an all around hunting rifle,would all four cartridges do an equal job,at the same ranges,under the same conditions,on all big game animals?If so,cartridge selection is a moot point to you.If one or more cartridges would ,in your opinion, provide an advantage, then would cartridge selection still be moot point in your opinion?

Elkhunter sorry but my post was not meant for you . My post may have quoted you but my post had the words "common sense" in it. Elkhunter you should also never ask for my opinion because some day I just might give it to you and this is supposed to be a nice friendly form.
Chuck had a very good point, it may have over simplified things a little but then I bet he was thinking that most people would use a little common sense, something that is not always that common on here.

[elkhunter11]

I also think what you prefer to hunt with has a lot more to do with "what is best", as well.

Or what you think is "the best for you and your hunting conditions".

You can choose a cartridge like the 30-30 and yes you could get by at longer range,but wind estimation would be much more critical,as would bullet selection to ensure that there is enough energy left for the bullet to properly expand at 500 yards.Then again,would you take the same shots at 500 yards with a 30-30 that you would take with a 300winmag or even a 30-06?Would your success rate be just as good at 500 yards,if you did take those those same shots at 500 yards with the 30-30?
The 30-30 has certainly proven itself to be an adequate cartridge for big game hunting,but is it really as good as other cartridges like the 30-06 or the 300winmag,when all hunting conditions,and all ranges to 500 yards are considered?Not to me it isn't.Given the declining sales of 30-30s over the years,a great many people obviously agree.

[Pathfinder76]

Originally Posted by Stinky Coyote

oh that was funny

chuck has alot of the same experience over and over.....and over, i making up for lost time since i missed about 15 years of hunting due to life circumstances but i did the iron sighted thing for first couple years at 'big game' as a kid with a rem 700 bdl 30-06 and killed the first 3 things i pointed it at when, two whitetails and a big black bear

years of experience alot of guys here can beat me, at the same time, doing same thing over and over....after a couple times does it really add up to that much more? i think he's bored and this is his way of having people motivate him to try plastic rifles in wsm cartridges because they rock!.....its just denial

when i got back into it later in life i was whacking and stacking with the bow, still am, this firearms stuff is a walk in the park lol, since i started with the long range set up every single thing i've dialed up has been every bit as good as i expect and then some, sometimes alive but most times not as just doing due diligence and staying sharp, always come away with a big smile on my face, as i said, walk in the park

cartridge selection is only moot if you want it to be lol, you can whack and stack at any range, we know chucks and we know the 303 guy is inside 200, blah blah, chuck wants it to be moot....and he's right, it is for him

p.s. mine is really only about 3" long fyi

Accomplishing something over and over again is success. Talking about the day you are going to do it isn't so much.

[elkhunter11]

Chuck had a very good point, it may have over simplified things a little

It oversimplified things a lot,which is why I originally asked him specifically.

So no matter what the game animal (pronghorn, deer, moose, elk, grizzly, etc.), no matter what the shot distance(50 yards to 500 yards),and no matter what the shot conditions,you would be equally comfortable taking any shot,with any of the firearms that you own(or have owned) that are legal to hunt big game with?

I made it very easy for him to better explain his point of view,or even to add some qualifiers or conditions to his opinions,but he chose not to do so.
Given your previous posts,including your 90% statement,I am thinking that you might have responded to my question differently,had I asked you instead.

If the original statement had been along the lines of,for the majority of big game hunting,under the majority of big game hunting conditions,the majority of cartridges using from say .264" to .375" bullets,will get the job done,I could agree wholeheartedly.However,that wasn't the way that the original opinion was stated,and the answer to my question to Chuck that I quoted in this post,made his opinion quite clear.

[KegRiver]

Originally Posted by elkhunter11

If you never mentioned 80"+ moose,why would you assume that I was referring to you.I was just pointing out that until something is proven to us,we may assume that it isn't real and that people are exaggerating,either their abilities to make long shots,or perhaps , the size of a moose.



Since no names were mentioned,and you maintain that you never mentioned an 80"+ moose,how could it be taken personally by anyone?Is it any different than:

You are a real piece of work. Who do you think you're kidding?

[Pathfinder76]

Here is what a good friend just had to say on another forum. I also used to correspond a bit with the late Mr. Hoffman and have bullets belonging to him that I still need to kill an Elk with.

"Funny, I used to correspond with the late George Hoffman who used to post here many years ago. He was the creator of the 416 Hoffman which Remington eventually adapted and turned into the 416 Rem. He was an African Professional hunter of vast experience.

We mostly corresponded about elk hunting as that's my passion. He told me he had taken just at 50 elk, all with the 270 Winchester... he and I both agree elk aren't particularly hard to kill given proper bullet placement."

[KegRiver]

Elkhunter;

Originally Posted by KegRiver

Rod Roth from Twin Lakes just north of Manning had a hunter take an 82" bull several years ago.


As to Rods hunter taking a 82 inch bull, I didn't see it so i am going on the word of locals who told me about it. Locals I might add that I consider reliable. Rod died last year in Spruce Grove so I can't ask him to confirm this.



And as I mentioned. I took a 64" bull myself while meat hunting.

If anyone is interested I could try to find them and post a photo, if they are still there.

I will take that photo. But I have no intention of posting it here. Now.
Certenly not for the likes of you.

[elkhunter11]

So now all of a sudden you remember mentioning that 82" moose.I guess that it was better to remember and quote yourself,rather than have someone else quote your post claiming the 82" moose.

Of course its just my opinion,but contrary to your opinion, I am thinking that there are a good many more hunters capable of consistent 500 yard shots on game animals,than there are 82" Canada moose.

Originally Posted by elkhunter11

If it was my name being used instead of yours,you would be laughing your head off, instead you are obviously ****ed off and trying to respond with a witty comment of your own to get back at me.

Meanwhile, I am the one laughing the most about the present situation.As I said,if it wasn't your name being used,you would be laughing yourself.But obviously,you aren't.

You obviously don't know me very well elk. I actually don't laugh at those kind of posts no matter who they are aimed at nor did I laugh at them in Grade 6.....they have no place on this board. I'm not upset at all ...your post was just in very poor taste, especially on a board where there a number of young members. Glad the mods agreed.

This was actualy an interesting thread for the first few posts...not so much anymore. Nice dead critters chuck.

[Stinky Coyote]

Originally Posted by chuck

Accomplishing something over and over again is success. Talking about the day you are going to do it isn't so much.

agree, since i have done it and currently do it successfully at every chance it turns out, i don't qualify for the last part of your statement lol, you keep guessing your holdovers and have your max range set where it is, i'll keep doing things inside my own learned limits and its all good

end of day cartridge selection isn't moot for big game hunting, within a certain bands of normal there are certain bands of cartridges that choosing between would be fairly moot....but not for all big game hunting

and i can double on the nice critters, and also they are nice guns you put together, i might end up with one that looks similar at some point but it will be non-standard cartridge guaranteed and set up a little different than holdover style and it will be field ready to near double the distances....thats how i roll, nothing wrong with how you roll either....it all works, neither of us are alone or wrong in how we roll, there are entire communities that roll both ways and even mingle with both types.......your attitude about it comes across as this is how it is and its the best way or only way....you maybe don't outright come out and say it but that is how you always come across...there is another fully functioning and successful world outside of chucks

[Mountain Guy]

Originally Posted by MK2750

So what I picture after these pages of irrelevant contradiction is Stinky and Elkhunter scaling the mountain passes together.

Stinky, in the lead of course, with enough technical data to whack the flies off a sheep’s backside a mile or more away. Even the possibility of that animal passing gas at the moment of impact has been calculated and its effects on the flight path of his Super Sonic 6.7mm super short, extra fat, triple belted ultra mag.

Elkhunter taking up the rear scanning the tree line for even a hint of danger. In his white knuckles enough fire power to literally knock a charging Grizz off the side of the mountain from sheer muzzle blast alone. Man nor beast would stand a chance against this deadly duo.

As for the rest of us mere mortals clinging to weapon passed down from our cave dwelling forefathers……………cartridge selection is a moot point.

Great post Chuck.

I was cleaning out the gun safe of 06s, 08s, 03s and a couple 300 savages in hopes of buying that perfect rifle with the money raised. In the back corner covered in grease was a 7x57. After three years of studying, shooting and killing with this rifle I have come to the conclusion that not a lot has happened in the cartridge department since 1892.

I have since refocused and am now on the quest for a perfect shotgun.

Nothing against anyone here....but THIS is the best post yet

[elkhunter11]

Nothing against anyone here....but THIS is the best post yet

And if it came from someone that had actually hunted the mountains and killed some elk,bighorn,and grizzly,it might even have some credibility as to what might happen on a mountain hunt.

I have spent my time in the mountains,and brought home bighorn,mountain goat,grizzly,and my share of elk.I have been charged by a grizzly,and made the shot when it counted.The cute little story might be entertaining,but it makes me wonder what the author would have done if he was charged by a grizzly.Would he have made the shot,or would he have wet his pants, missed the shot and become the victim of a bear mauling?

[Pathfinder76]

Hmmm

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=d2COAcHZRlI

[Pathfinder76]

Originally Posted by Stinky Coyote

agree, since i have done it and currently do it successfully at every chance it turns out, i don't qualify for the last part of your statement lol, you keep guessing your holdovers and have your max range set where it is, i'll keep doing things inside my own learned limits and its all good

end of day cartridge selection isn't moot for big game hunting, within a certain bands of normal there are certain bands of cartridges that choosing between would be fairly moot....but not for all big game hunting

and i can double on the nice critters, and also they are nice guns you put together, i might end up with one that looks similar at some point but it will be non-standard cartridge guaranteed and set up a little different than holdover style and it will be field ready to near double the distances....thats how i roll, nothing wrong with how you roll either....it all works, neither of us are alone or wrong in how we roll, there are entire communities that roll both ways and even mingle with both types.......your attitude about it comes across as this is how it is and its the best way or only way....you maybe don't outright come out and say it but that is how you always come across...there is another fully functioning and successful world outside of chucks

Did I stutter when I mentioned I was no stranger to dialing a turret? Must have.

[Arn?Narn.]

I believe this thread has EPIC potential....

[WABBIT]

I have spent years convincing the Commander and Chief that a vast
selection of calibers are a necessity to successfully hunt in Alberta.

[Pudelpointer]

Originally Posted by chuck

I just always assumed that it was life experience that had made Chuck so grumpy. But look at that face! Nature vs. Nurture..... I think we have solved that debate!

Ha!

Seriously though Chuck, your OP was great, and a damn fine read. Thanks for taking the time to put your thoughts into words. I wish more posts on AO were of this quality, instead of the too common drivel.

If you are feeling up to it, how about a post on your considerations in putting together a rifle? Advantages and disadvantages of the various stocks, bottom metal, triggers, action modifications, etc. that you have tried over the years.

I think some people have a deep seated need for their opinions/experiences to be validated, and will argue endlessly until you agree with them, thus stroking their ego. Then, there are others that are willing to share their knowledge who do not give a rat's ass if someone thinks they are wrong, and often they come across as arrogant, belligerent or downright crusty!

FWIW, I got got used to your crusty nature a long time ago.

[Pines]

Originally Posted by Arn?Narn.

I believe this thread has EPIC potential....

lol..u right and I hope this goes the limit..so many personel opinions on here that blurr the facts , its funny !!!! Elk and Stinks good replies...

[Pines]

Originally Posted by Pudelpointer

I just always assumed that it was life experience that had made Chuck so grumpy. But look at that face! Nature vs. Nurture..... I think we have solved that debate!

Ha!

Seriously though Chuck, your OP was great, and a damn fine read. Thanks for taking the time to put your thoughts into words. I wish more posts on AO were of this quality, instead of the too common drivel.

If you are feeling up to it, how about a post on your considerations in putting together a rifle? Advantages and disadvantages of the various stocks, bottom metal, triggers, action modifications, etc. that you have tried over the years.

I think some people have a deep seated need for their opinions/experiences to be validated, and will argue endlessly until you agree with them, thus stroking their ego. Then, there are others that are willing to share their knowledge who do not give a rat's ass if someone thinks they are wrong, and often they come across as arrogant, belligerent or downright crusty!

FWIW, I got got used to your crusty nature a long time ago.

U kiddin ..RIGHT ???

[Pudelpointer]

Originally Posted by Pines

U kiddin ..RIGHT ???

About which part? Chuck being grumpy from birth? I think I proved my case on that one...