6.5 Grendel vs 308 Win

[Kurt505]

Originally Posted by 41thunder

See, This is the attitude everyone doesn’t appreciate. I’d really be interested to know who the real person is behind the screen, and what gives you the right to talk to people the way you do? You change your story all the time. Sorry, but you do. Now your max range is 600 yards? You do realize your probably not gaining much with a eldx or a ablr over a normal accubond which has been in the market for a long time. Argue argue argue.

Ill tell you what marky mark, I’ll give you $1000 if you can quote where I said my max range on big game is over 600yds, you give me $1000 once you find out I didn’t. Point out where I’m flipping and flopping. I asked for a couple other members to point it out, they haven’t yet. Youre not too smart coming on here with a new user name then continuing on exactly the way that got you a time out in the first place.

You want to know who I am, there are several pics of me on this forum, how about you post a picture of yourself? I don’t say anything to someone on here I won’t say to their face. I call a spade a spade in real life too.

You are another one who got your feelings hurt and now you just jump on the attack wagon even though there’s absolutely no basis. Do me a favor, go back and actually read the posts and see where things got ingnorant, and quote it, I can do it for you if you like. The guy is making things up plain and simple. All I’m guilty of is pointing that out.

I really wish the mods would send you away again because all you do is troll. You add zero facts to the conversation, just instigate things.

[Kurt505]

Originally Posted by Norwest Alta

No just wanted your opinion. I can’t fault nor will I for your way of thinking but they way I read your post is you’re willing to compromise speed to burn less powder? Is this to save money? Seems to me that powder is the cheaper of all ingredients to make a bullet come out the barrel. In my mind efficiency is

Case design can allow you to attain a less powder to velocity ratio, that’s Ackley’s claim to fame.

It’s powder, noise, recoil, barrel length, barrel life, and weight, and realizing how much power I need to accomplish my goal. A lot of guys are not one gun does all guys, I have magnums and 243’s for hunting. There is no doubt that a 300 magnum packs more punch than a 6.5 Creedmoor, the difference is how much power is needed to get the job done under certain circumstances. For instance, if I want to spend a day at the pit shooting at targets from 300-800 yards, or still hunt for whitetail in the Athabasca river valley, the best gun I have for that is my 6.5 Creedmoor. If I’m driving around looking for a whitetail in rut cruising for chics in the wide open fields, my 25” barrel 270wsm is a better choice. Will either gun work in either circumstance? Sure, but I’ve got guns so I can pick the one best suited for the job. If I see an elk or whitetail out of range for my Creedmoor I have two choices, try to get closer or try again another day.

[Beeman3]

Think you just wrapped it up Kurt. It is as simple as that guys. Choose the right tool for the job. Unfortunately it took 6 pages.

[Xbolt7mm]

Originally Posted by Stinky Coyote

Sure, did both moose die and which one took more force? Or did the magnums put more into the dirt?

The point is, more is not better, not more efficient etc. The 60 percent more recoil should show 60% more damage or depth or 60%!faster kill etc. But that’s not how it works, you take 60% more recoil and you maybe get 15% gain in wound channel damage? Worth it?

Stinky, you expect the rest of us do our best to accept you logic, biased data that leaves out energy yet you will do nothing to even try to under stand everyone else and their choices. You get a glimmer of common sence then you post something like this

[dogslayer403]

Originally Posted by Stinky Coyote

Sure, did both moose die and which one took more force? Or did the magnums put more into the dirt?

The point is, more is not better, not more efficient etc. The 60 percent more recoil should show 60% more damage or depth or 60%!faster kill etc. But that’s not how it works, you take 60% more recoil and you maybe get 15% gain in wound channel damage? Worth it?

Let it go man bigger cals at same speed hit harder regardless of sd and if they will penatrate the same. My last moose was shot with my 358 sta double shoulder and exited dropped it in its tracks now tell me would a creedmoor or grendel do that? Obviously not you posted proof

Is that necessary probably not and i usually hunt with smaller cartridges im not in disagreement with your numbers just saying one has more horspower period cant disregard that whether you need it or not is not the argument

[AndrewM]

Originally Posted by Xbolt7mm

Stinky, you expect the rest of us do our best to accept you logic, biased data that leaves out energy yet you will do nothing to even try to under stand everyone else and their choices. You get a glimmer of common sence then you post something like this

The arrow SD comparison was where he proved his knowledge of "physics" and was worth a good laugh!

[41thunder]

Originally Posted by Kurt505

Ill tell you what marky mark, I’ll give you $1000 if you can quote where I said my max range on big game is over 600yds, you give me $1000 once you find out I didn’t. Point out where I’m flipping and flopping. I asked for a couple other members to point it out, they haven’t yet. Youre not too smart coming on here with a new user name then continuing on exactly the way that got you a time out in the first place.

You want to know who I am, there are several pics of me on this forum, how about you post a picture of yourself? I don’t say anything to someone on here I won’t say to their face. I call a spade a spade in real life too.

You are another one who got your feelings hurt and now you just jump on the attack wagon even though there’s absolutely no basis. Do me a favor, go back and actually read the posts and see where things got ingnorant, and quote it, I can do it for you if you like. The guy is making things up plain and simple. All I’m guilty of is pointing that out.

I really wish the mods would send you away again because all you do is troll. You add zero facts to the conversation, just instigate things.

Why don’t you just simmer down a touch and give the attitude a rest for a little while.
Serenity now serenity now
Wooosaaa woosssaaaass
Not everyone is your enemy. It’s just a bullet. And no one is forcing you to buy anything.

[Kurt505]

Originally Posted by 41thunder

Why don’t you just simmer down a touch and give the attitude a rest for a little while.
Serenity now serenity now
Wooosaaa woosssaaaass
Not everyone is your enemy. It’s just a bullet. And no one is forcing you to buy anything.

I like to discuss all things outdoors, I’m an easy going guy who likes to joke around. If you want to argue a point of view? That’s fine, but I get a little upset when guys make things up. I don’t like is when someone has nothing to add to the conversation, they just pop in to instigate things. You have jumped on a couple threads now just to pick it with me, and in both cases you’ve had nothing to add to the conversation, just to the argument.

Got any pics you care to share?

[Jeron Kahyar]

SC if speed is your metric for gauging efficiency why did you bother with the Creedmore?

6.5x55 vs 6.5 Creedmore
156gr Oryx (same for both)

6.5x55:
2352 - 2507 fps

6.5 Creedmore:
2349 - 2536 fps

This gives you anywhere from a 0.1% loss to a 1.1% gain in efficiency. Hardly worth it some may think.

*Just for fun*
300H&H vs 300 Win Mag
180gr Partition (same for both)

300H&H:
2802 - 2939 fps

300 WM:
2914 - 3094 fps

This one gets you from 4 - 5.5% gain. Still looks like not a whole lot but it is something I guess.

*And one more
This is one since it is the original topic of these threads.

6.5CM vs 300 WM
156gr Oryx vs 150gr Partition
(Bullet weight is about as close as you get)

6.5CM:
2349 - 2536 fps

300 WM:
3124 - 3288 fps

Now we can see that jumping to the magnum gives a 23-25% gain in velocity. Now we are getting to something that looks like an actual difference.

*All data from published Norma load data*


Now looking at this seems there is less of a reason to go from the old fashioned cartridge to the new version. Than making the leap from standard chamberings to magnum chamberings. In the end this snipit of information leaves out so much that it is nearly bordering on untruthful. But you know what they say: "There is two kinds of lies damned lies and statistics".

[Norwest Alta]

Originally Posted by Kurt505

I like to discuss all things outdoors, I’m an easy going guy who likes to joke around. If you want to argue a point of view? That’s fine, but I get a little upset when guys make things up. I don’t like is when someone has nothing to add to the conversation, they just pop in to instigate things. You have jumped on a couple threads now just to pick it with me, and in both cases you’ve had nothing to add to the conversation, just to the argument.

Got any pics you care to share?

Well there's multiple posters on this thread but only 3 that seem to think the 6.5 is gospel. Your one of them so I guess you can take your ball and go home because the majority don't believe in the bs you're trying to push or you can accept the fact that your beloved creedmore is no different then any other gun. It is more then likely a fad imo.

[Big Sky]

I am only here for the knowledge. My only contributions are memes, gifs and drive-by comments.

IMO
Don's math is best.
Math is hard.
If people are going to cut and paste their arguments from the web, they should state their source.

Fair amount of nit-picking. Reminds me of this, not that this is bad. Not trying to offend any one as I know that in the past I have caused butt-hurt of John Holmes proportions with something that I thought was inoffensive.



Legit question, as I am more of a grip 'em and rip 'em shooter and not up on all of the techie stuff. Hunting and gopher smackin' are more my things.
I like TTSX bullets for hunting. Factory loads are fine by me. Barnes has some offerings.
http://www.barnesbullets.com/ammunition/vor-tx-rifle/

I shoot a 270win. They offer a 130gr load at 3060fps.
BC = 0.392 SD =0.242

They also offer a Creedmoor load with 120gr at 2910fps.
BC = 0.412 SD = 0.246

Looks like the Creed has an advantage with its higher BC
Could someone run the numbers for me and and then post em up. Where does the Creed take over? How far until the TTSX won't expand properly.
Some wind drift info would be nice as that is also important.

Thanks in advance.

[Salavee]

Originally Posted by Kurt505

Yes, an improvement, technology has improved, improving bullet performance and allowing us to make ethical kills further down range than before. This in turn has moved the advantages of a magnum further down range. What hasn’t changed is human ability. Just because your rifle is capable of making an ethical kill at 1200yds, it doesn’t mean you are.

Eldx, ABLR, both bullets of my generation and modern design. Game changers imo.

what's this about?

[Jeron Kahyar]

Originally Posted by Salavee

what's this about?

I think he is questioning your abilities to shoot long ranges (probably your manhood too).



or he is just stating a fairly obvious point of few shoot to this distance. I dunno though could be them's fightin' wurds rite thar!

[Kurt505]

Originally Posted by Norwest Alta

Well there's multiple posters on this thread but only 3 that seem to think the 6.5 is gospel. Your one of them so I guess you can take your ball and go home because the majority don't believe in the bs you're trying to push or you can accept the fact that your beloved creedmore is no different then any other gun. It is more then likely a fad imo.

You only hear or see what you want to see. All I’ve done is post facts on ballistics, take from it what you want, but you’re obviously misleading yourself if you think I ever said the 6.5 is godpel, or even my favorite because I’ve made it quite clear, and stated numerous times that I prefer a .284 bullet. You, salavee, marky, nyksta, and xbolt make it your mission to try and discredit the Creedmoor no matter what is said, constantly taking things out of context to try and manipulate the conversation. I’ve never made claim or posted anything that wasn’t fact, if so show me where and prove it’s not fact. I’ve listen to your “ya buts” over and over, I’ve tried to explain that there is a time and a place for every cartridge, explained that the amount of force needed to kill a big game animal is easily exceeded by the Creedmoor if you stay within the limits. You’re the one taking offense to the notion that a 6.5 Creedmoor is a capable big game cartridge, calling it a needmore, remember that nonsense? Lol!!!

My view has never wavered or altered on the subject, yours has. I stated facts, whether you like them or agree with them is of no consequence. You were proved wrong when Stinky killed a moose with a Grendel. Oh, he took 2 shots to the body and one to the head to put it down? Your partner marky took two shots to put down his moose with a magnum, my buddy took 3 shots with a 300 mag to put down his elk, it all backs up my arguement from day one, if it has enough power to allow the bullet to preform as designed, and you put it where it’s supposed to go, you’ll be successful. That’s all I’ve ever said, but it’s enough to ruffle the feathers of a choice few, you included.

Go back to day one, I explained how a 6.5 Creedmoor is capable of retaining enough speed and energy to allow a bullet to work as designed further out than a 308 and posted the published numbers to prove it and the hurt feelings all started there.

It doesn’t matter if you beleive the bs I’m pushing, it’s fact. If you can prove the facts wrong I’d love to hear about it.

[Kurt505]

Originally Posted by Salavee

what's this about?

That’s about the fact that where the standard case stops being capable and the benefit of owning a magnum rifle starts to make an actual difference between a bullet performing as it was designed to perform, is farther out than most typical hunters are capable of making an accurate shot, in most cases myself included.

[Jeron Kahyar]

Originally Posted by Big Sky

I am only here for the knowledge. My only contributions are memes, gifs and drive-by comments.

IMO
Don's math is best.
Math is hard.
If people are going to cut and paste their arguments from the web, they should state their source.

Fair amount of nit-picking. Reminds me of this, not that this is bad. Not trying to offend any one as I know that in the past I have caused butt-hurt of John Holmes proportions with something that I thought was inoffensive.



Legit question, as I am more of a grip 'em and rip 'em shooter and not up on all of the techie stuff. Hunting and gopher smackin' are more my things.
I like TTSX bullets for hunting. Factory loads are fine by me. Barnes has some offerings.
http://www.barnesbullets.com/ammunition/vor-tx-rifle/

I shoot a 270win. They offer a 130gr load at 3060fps.
BC = 0.392 SD =0.242

They also offer a Creedmoor load with 120gr at 2910fps.
BC = 0.412 SD = 0.246

Looks like the Creed has an advantage with its higher BC
Could someone run the numbers for me and and then post em up. Where does the Creed take over? How far until the TTSX won't expand properly.
Some wind drift info would be nice as that is also important.

Thanks in advance.

These tables are with a 90° crosswind @10mph for both loads you listed.

6.5 Ceedmore:

270 Win.

[Nyksta]

Originally Posted by Jeron Kahyar

These tables are with a 90° crosswind @10mph for both loads you listed.

6.5 Ceedmore:


270 Win.

Look at that. the old 270 is better than the creedmoor in Speed energy drop and wind drift from muzzle to 900. Only by a little bit... but splitting hairs to point out the winner is what this thread us all about right...

[Norwest Alta]

Originally Posted by Kurt505

You only hear or see what you want to see. All I’ve done is post facts on ballistics, take from it what you want, but you’re obviously misleading yourself if you think I ever said the 6.5 is godpel, or even my favorite because I’ve made it quite clear, and stated numerous times that I prefer a .284 bullet. You, salavee, marky, nyksta, and xbolt make it your mission to try and discredit the Creedmoor no matter what is said, constantly taking things out of context to try and manipulate the conversation. I’ve never made claim or posted anything that wasn’t fact, if so show me where and prove it’s not fact. I’ve listen to your “ya buts” over and over, I’ve tried to explain that there is a time and a place for every cartridge, explained that the amount of force needed to kill a big game animal is easily exceeded by the Creedmoor if you stay within the limits. You’re the one taking offense to the notion that a 6.5 Creedmoor is a capable big game cartridge, calling it a needmore, remember that nonsense? Lol!!!

My view has never wavered or altered on the subject, yours has. I stated facts, whether you like them or agree with them is of no consequence. You were proved wrong when Stinky killed a moose with a Grendel. Oh, he took 2 shots to the body and one to the head to put it down? Your partner marky took two shots to put down his moose with a magnum, my buddy took 3 shots with a 300 mag to put down his elk, it all backs up my arguement from day one, if it has enough power to allow the bullet to preform as designed, and you put it where it’s supposed to go, you’ll be successful. That’s all I’ve ever said, but it’s enough to ruffle the feathers of a choice few, you included.

Go back to day one, I explained how a 6.5 Creedmoor is capable of retaining enough speed and energy to allow a bullet to work as designed further out than a 308 and posted the published numbers to prove it and the hurt feelings all started there.

It doesn’t matter if you beleive the bs I’m pushing, it’s fact. If you can prove the facts wrong I’d love to hear about it.

Feathers aren't ruffled at all you seem to be the one that is on the defensive not me. Personally I could careless about discrediting your facts about the 6.5 cm. All the facts prove to me is that it won't do the job any better then anything I've got in my gun safe and actually might be a worse choice then most of what I got in my arsenal.

Maybe I'm taking your posts out of context.

[41thunder]

No one said 6.5 calibers were garbage. There is just cartridges that offer the same accuracy if not better and more velocity. I like velocity. Common trend is to want the bullet on the hide on the opposing side. I prefer 2 big holes and that bullet 2 counties over. Is it excess? Quite possibly. Does it make it wrong? Not in my books. I prefer “really dead” over “sorta dead” every time.

[AndrewM]

Originally Posted by Nyksta

Look at that. the old 270 is better than the creedmoor in Speed energy drop and wind drift from muzzle to 900. Only by a little bit... but splitting hairs to point out the winner is what this thread us all about right...

If using these parameters it is the winner but it takes more recoil to get there. That's why people like the CM. You get similar performance for less recoil. For the recoil shy the CM would be the clear winner.

[Kurt505]

Originally Posted by Norwest Alta

you seem to be the one that is on the defensive not me.

Maybe I'm taking your posts out of context.

Of course I am, and for this reason. You, along with the rest of your crew make it so.

You think there is a group of 3, me included trying to sell you bs, I can’t speak for the other two guys you have in mind, but I’m only trying to explain the facts. There seems to be a lot of other fellas here that aren’t having a hard time seeing that, whether they like a Creedmoor or not. I’m not trying to say the Creedmoor has more hitting power than a 300win mag, or the 6.5’s in general have more hitting power than the 30’s, I’m saying they are more efficient at transferring the power down range though. That’s just a fact.

[Kurt505]

Originally Posted by 41thunder

No one said 6.5 calibers were garbage. There is just cartridges that offer the same accuracy if not better and more velocity. I like velocity. Common trend is to want the bullet on the hide on the opposing side. I prefer 2 big holes and that bullet 2 counties over. Is it excess? Quite possibly. Does it make it wrong? Not in my books. I prefer “really dead” over “sorta dead” every time.

Cool.......


Got any pics?

[Norwest Alta]

Originally Posted by AndrewM

If using these parameters it is the winner but it takes more recoil to get there. That's why people like the CM. You get similar performance for less recoil. For the recoil shy the CM would be the clear winner.

This is where I have a problem. Recoil? There are ways to mitigate the felt recoil that doesn't compromise the effectiveness of the cartridge.

[Kurt505]

Originally Posted by AndrewM

If using these parameters it is the winner but it takes more recoil to get there. That's why people like the CM. You get similar performance for less recoil. For the recoil shy the CM would be the clear winner.

Exactly, efficiency!!!

That’s the name of the game.

I think a comparison between the 6.5 PRC and the 270 would be more of an apples to apples comparison given the powder charge.

I know how some of you hate data and facts, and these are from 2 different manufacturers, but it’ll paint a bit of a picture.

https://press.hornady.com/assets/sit...6.5-prc-v2.pdf


https://load-data.nosler.com/load-data/270-winchester/

Something to note is the heavier, smaller diameter bullet will have a higher bc, and as we all know will result in more energy being transferred further down range.

[Norwest Alta]

Originally Posted by Kurt505

Of course I am, and for this reason. You, along with the rest of your crew make it so.

You think there is a group of 3, me included trying to sell you bs, I can’t speak for the other two guys you have in mind, but I’m only trying to explain the facts. There seems to be a lot of other fellas here that aren’t having a hard time seeing that, whether they like a Creedmoor or not. I’m not trying to say the Creedmoor has more hitting power than a 300win mag, or the 6.5’s in general have more hitting power than the 30’s, I’m saying they are more efficient at transferring the power down range though. That’s just a fact.

Of course they're more efficient. Why? Because they're transferring less power. A 22 short is more efficient for chucking lead down range but not the most practicle for some applications.

[41thunder]

Originally Posted by Kurt505

Cool.......


Got any pics?

What would you like pics of?

[Kurt505]

Originally Posted by Norwest Alta

Of course they're more efficient. Why? Because they're transferring less power. A 22 short is more efficient for chucking lead down range but not the most practicle for some applications.

Wrong, it’s about ballistics, they are capable of retaining more energy. This is why we are arguing.

[Kurt505]

Originally Posted by 41thunder

What would you like pics of?

You

[41thunder]

Originally Posted by Kurt505

You

Sorry I’m not on grinder. Not looking for a date

[AndrewM]

Originally Posted by Norwest Alta

This is where I have a problem. Recoil? There are ways to mitigate the felt recoil that doesn't compromise the effectiveness of the cartridge.

Absolutely. Heavier stock, better recoil pad, install a break. But you can also do that to the CM which would still make it better for the recoil shy.
A jetta and a Ferrari get you to the same place. One may get you there quicker but doesn't mean it is required.