Wolf Cull/ Poisioning in AB

[RockyMountainMusic]

Hi all i want to share with everyone what our local in Grande Cache is doing to try to get some anwsers as to how our Gov can get away with what they are doing. I will share our letter and their response and then our reply again so far.... I will also include a report done by Bob Stewart on the Caribou. It is a little bit of reading but this stuff is not acceptable. They kill 200 healthy animals to be used for bait while we are criminals if you kill an elk to feed your family if it has antlers a couple inches short. They are using poision to kill wolfs(and everything else) which should not be allowed in todays age! This is not a pleasant death and there are better ways to control populations. Just all the accidental kills (that they will admit to) shows they are not reponsible with how they are using the pooision. I dont want to make this to long as its already enough reading but i encourage all to take the time to read and take 2 mins to send an email( ill try to post a link) to our Primier on this subject. They are doing this here but they wont stop here it will be everywhere there is Caribou if they are geting away with it already.

Letter 1.PDF

Here is our letter if i did it right and will put more up if it works!

[RockyMountainMusic]

Their reply:
Response.PDF

Then here is our latest letter back to them!
Letter 2.PDF

Here is the link to the priemier's email, it doesnt have to be formal the more emails they get the more the more they will have to deal with the problem. If you are involved in a trapper local or fish and game club you should take it to your members so they are aware. Power is in numbers and we can either cry in a coffee shop about the good old days or try to stop it before it is only the good old days left!


premier@gov.ab.ca

[edmhunter]

The government's response seems reasonable to me. From what I have been reading on AOF, wolf populations are out of control and I for one am happy to see the government taking a proactive stance.

I also do not believe that there are enough trappers out there to effectively reduce the wolf numbers, especially in the areas I hunt.

[Matt L.]

Originally Posted by edmhunter

The government's response seems reasonable to me. From what I have been reading on AOF, wolf populations are out of control and I for one am happy to see the government taking a proactive stance.

I also do not believe that there are enough trappers out there to effectively reduce the wolf numbers, especially in the areas I hunt.

So you're cool with eagles, ravens, fishers, and anything else that would come to a carcass being poisoned, including grizzlies?

[edmhunter]

Originally Posted by Matt L.

So you're cool with eagles, ravens, fishers, and anything else that would come to a carcass being poisoned, including grizzlies?

No I am not! I should have added that I am 100% in favor of the helicopter aerial assault, but not poisoning because of the unintended kills. That is where I stand on this issue.

Let me ask you a question Matt L. Have you been looking on the trapper threads on AO, if so how many wolves have you seen killed by trappers?

[Matt L.]

Originally Posted by edmhunter

No I am not! I should have added that I am 100% in favor of the helicopter aerial assault, but not poisoning because of the unintended kills. That is where I stand on this issue.

Let me ask you a question Matt L. Have you been looking on the trapper threads on AO, if so how many wolves have you seen killed by trappers?

Wolves are not the only, hell not even the major, issue at play here. Number 1 front and centre is habitat loss. No amount wolves killed will give caribou more habitat. The second one is even less likely to be admitted by the gov. Bears do a big number on ungulate calf crops. Ask the trappers and others who frequent that area how the grizzly bear population is doing out there.

[RockyMountainMusic]

Originally Posted by Matt L.

So you're cool with eagles, ravens, fishers, and anything else that would come to a carcass being poisoned, including grizzlies?

Your exactly right:
91 ravens, 36 coyotes, 31 foxes, 8 marten, 6 lynx, 4 weasels and 4 fishers
is what they will admit too.
But not 1 wolverine or eagle or grizz or 4 pet dogs...... BS and thats doing an 8 day check which is also riduclious and carless and they are not going to look anywhere thats probably what died on the bait pile.

[MooseRiverTrapper]

They have my full support to expand this operation throughout alberta. I would like to see roadkill used but if not so be it.

[dmcbride]

I don't spend much time in the areas that you describe, but I agree with what you are saying.


If poison is the answer. It does not make sense from a money perspective to gun down ungulates to poison them when there is already road kill. It is cheaper to long line a animal and drop it then it is to find a animal, shoot it, find a place to land, set poison, take off and repeat. They could collect lots of road kill and set poison and long line a lot more animals in one day than the way they are doing it right now.

Your letter touches on spraying to kill every plant that isn't pine. I was spring bear hunting and watched a helicopter spray one of my favorite cutblocks in Wmu 339 this year. Needless to say come fall there wasn't a track to be found in that cutblock. The practice should be banned.

[RockyMountainMusic]

Originally Posted by edmhunter

The government's response seems reasonable to me. From what I have been reading on AOF, wolf populations are out of control and I for one am happy to see the government taking a proactive stance.

I also do not believe that there are enough trappers out there to effectively reduce the wolf numbers, especially in the areas I hunt.

While everyone is entitled to their own opinion its not about controling wolf numbers, its the way ther are doing it. Posioning is not a good or humane method. I believe if there was incentive there would be more than enoguh trappers to effectivly reduce the numbers but also they could have bounties and ask California if bounties work (they almost wiped out cougars altogether becasue of a bounty). Why not more than trappers go with fish and game clubs and hunters. At $5000 per wolf for the heli shoots im sure they can motivate people cheaper than that.Why do every other species need to die to save caribou? 1000 moose tags in 353 ya that make sense. There is little wolves left in the al lepeche little smokey area and yet caribou are not populating. The problem is not wolves people it industry, and you mean to tell me the griazzlies are not feeding on the calves of game in the area, grizzily numbers are exploding but oh ya there is none. Its easy to hide behind the "wolf cry" thats what they want people to do. some of the cut blocks in the area have less than 30% recovery rate which is obscene, they have no highway barriers dont care about creeks..... i can go on all day but its sad that we protected more in 1980 than we do today and we know more and have more technology today......

[RockyMountainMusic]

I tried putting the article from AO from Bob Stewart which is a great article but its too big, but here is an essay thats a good read too:

Report.PDF

Also good info on Caribou and the real problem on the CPAW website, you can google if the link dont work!

http://cpaws.org/news/threats-outpac...-annual-review

We need to fight back on this crap!

[NewGuard84]

Some of us will be doing our part to hunt wolves over the winter where possible. Would rather see that happen than poisoning

[nicaragua]

This is Bob Stewart and maybe I can help explain the story.

This is a rather complex story that unfortunately gets simplified ad thrown into a wolf controller vs wolf protector forum very easily.

I a a 66 year old field biologist. For many years I was moose research biologist in Saskatchewan going back to the 1970's and early 80's. In those days we did not have access to a lot of high tech radio collars, GPS location technology, and Geographical Information Systems, and pleased ourselves by passing a lot of time in the bush. A very sweet life.

We were having problems with low moose calf survival in those days in the Cumberland Delta- a lowland expanse on the border of Sask and Manitoba. My years in the bush revealed that during the calving season we had a lot of bears roaming around and very few wolves. Wolves not too keen about walking through water, but bears did not care so had this idea bears were likely killing moose calves. So in 1982 and 1983 we took the bears out of 300 km2 and low and behold calf survival doubled. We have no idea of the percentage of bears we removed but it was about 10 animals/100 km2.

Years later (2000) I was in Alberta and attended a caribou meeting and listened to the scientists talking about wolves killing caribou, and suggested to them the pattern of mortality they were describing was more reminiscent about bears than wolves, and asked if anyone was researching bears and the answer was no. I then left the country till 2008 and in 2010 picked up the story and was amazed to see Alberta was still on their wolf agenda. So I began to dig into the published research. I am not talking about whether I like or hate wolves or bears but about the literature that blamed wolves for something I thought bears were doing.

I knows many hunters want to blame wolves for almost everything and I do not argue wolves kill ungulates- that is how they survive. But caribou represent a very different story, and any hunter worth his/her salt will recognize that you see a lot of moose/deer/elk compared to caribou when you are hunting in the boreal forest. The reason is twofold. First there are very few boreal caribou in alberta- LIKE ONLY 2500 compared to like 120000 moose, 200,000 bears, 7000 wolves, 26,000 elk and god knows how many deer. In areas where caribou and wolves cohabit the population densities are about the same including upland habitats.

However, boreal caribou inhabit bogs. There numbers are about 1-2 animals for every 100 square kilometers. In this same area you may find 1/2 wolf for every 100 square kilometers and up to 20 bears, or 40x the number of bears.

The caribou calving season is 6 weeks long (May 15-June 30), but in this time only about 1/3 of the calves born will be alive in July. Now you have to think real hard here to figure out what is happening. Wolves do not live in bogs, but prefer uplands. The science of dozens of publications states that caribou isolate themselves from wolves. In May the alpha female is having pups and is tied to the den. She often chooses bogs to have her pups to isolate herself, but tends to hunt easy prey like beavers that are tied to riparian habitats. Caribou cows on the other hand hide away deep within bogs, and the probability of a caribou meeting a wolf is very very low. And remember there are not enough caribou to become a species that wolves can afford to pay attention to.. One beaver provides 5X the nutrition of a scrawny little caribou calf.

But, at the same time of year we have bears, recently out of their den from winter hibernation looking for something to eat. Remember, bears are omnivores and survive on plants a lot more than meat, but they cannot resist a tasty little meal. We do know that about one third of bears will move into bogs in the spring time in search of early green up vegetation like horsetails and sedges. This is important as caribou also like this fresh spring food. This provides an opportunity for bears and caribou, particularly cows with calves to interact with bears in the same vegetation rich patches. So bears can follow mom in hopes of an especially nice meal which may lead them to a calf.

Research in many parts of Canada have shown bears are pretty darned good at finding caribou calves. In Newfoundland 2/3 of calf mortality is due to bears. In Quebec they showed that 95% of predator-killed calves were victims of bears and only 5% wolves.

I am not discussing here whether wolves kill ungulates- of course they do, and this has led to many wolf control programs in the history of wildlife management. I am not here to debate that. My issue is the wolf culling programs in Alberta in the name of woodland caribou management. The Little Smokey is the single example to date of such control efforts. Ten years of wolf culling resulting in the death of 1000 wolves and the sacrifice of a couple of hundred moose, elk and deer as strychnine baits has resulted in a population of two less caribou, and based on this the government and university biologists behind these programs feel justified to kill more wolves, moose, elk and deer. They are claiming success.

i am not only a biologist, but also a hunter. But first I use my head. This program has not worked well and wolves from surrounding habitats have invaded the Little Smokey year after year from surrounding habitats. When you break down the social structure in wolf packs you release a breeding potential that is spectacular.

The biologists in Alberta went into this program as a 2-3 year control effort in which they thought the caribou population would be released. This has failed. But they have failed to understand what is actually happening. Wolves are not killing caribou calves and there is not a single published incident of a wolf taking a caribou calf in Alberta. Alberta researchers have studied wolves and caribou for decades while completely ignoring the most numerous and effective predator of calves- black bears.

This is really a story of human stupidity and does not warrant the debate about whether wolf killing is good or bad- in the case off woodland caribou it is a travesty, a waste of money and waste of time. In addition the use of poison to control wolves is not good. i care not whether you agree or not, but dying by strychnine is not a sweet death weather you be a wolf, wolverine, lynx, fox, coyote, raven, eagle or whatever chews upon the carcass of a bait.

The story does not end here however. The government has also sponsored trapping programs within caribou habitats that have killed hundreds of non-target species, In addition to those mentioned above we can add cougars, moose, deer, bears, and even caribou dying in foot snares.

For me the worst part of this is the reality that we can probably make headway with bears without killing them. I have been involved in private research which essentially means $125000 out of pocket with an associate of mine to evaluate whether we can effectively deliver aversive conditioning to bears that may be useful to reducing the impact of their predation on caribou calves. The government of Alberta refused to even meet with us to discuss the pros and cons of such an approach in 2013.

I would advise people here to get a bit more involved than to simply whine. How long would it take you to simply write a note to the Minister responsible for this to be accountable. Ask them directly what their policy is towards woodland caribou management in Alberta and whether or not they have considered bears as the potential primary predator of woodland caribou calves and has this been reflected in their funding of bear research in Alberta. IF HE SAYS YES YOU WILL KNOW the depths of deception.

The power really lies in your hands but you need to be responsible and unemotional in your communications. if you do not stand up and accept that whining in an opinion blog is sufficient action on your behalf so be it. I for one will continue in my battle for truth and respect for wildlife.

This problem exists because of our pursuit of resources and human economy, and in my books, the beneficiaries have the money to foot the bill for solutions.

I will happily attempt to answer any questions you wish to pose to me, but be respectful

[MooseRiverTrapper]

Very interesting thanks for taking the time to post.

[dmcbride]

Originally Posted by MooseRiverTrapper

Very interesting thanks for taking the time to post.

X2

[edmhunter]

Thank you for giving all of us your time and vast and studied opinion on this subject, wow is all I have to say, I for one had no idea!

I have been on this site for about 4 months, and very often I see posts that wolves are every where.

My question is this: In the areas of the province where wolves are now seen and the tracks are seen everywhere (according to posters) I would like to know if they have a significant impact on the mortality rate of deer, elk and moose or do bears still take more ungulates then wolves in these zones ? For instance zones like 507, 510, 505, 506.

Again, I appreciate your input and time that you took to educate us and wish you a Merry Christmas and a healthy and prosperous 2015.

[Brian Bildson]

I participated in an wolf research program on the Kakwa in the 90's with a researcher called Jerry Kuzik. He recorded the largest pack size to date in Alberta at 18 wolves, 17 of which were pitch black.

Jerry told a story or retrieving caribou calves stashed in snow banks in Alaska, by bears.

I support the efforts of the GC local and agree 100%.

[CritterCommander]

It is up to us to bring these concerns to the attention of not only the minister but also our local MLA's. In my case the local MLA is a back bencher who just might need something to do, so will be doing my best to compose an email to him explaining all this, which isn't going to be easy by any stretch! Word smithing is not really my strong suit but let's get started!

[ffw12]

This is why we trap wolves. Get the trappers involved. They are holding the traplines that others including myself would like to have. If you cant manage the wolves on your line, get out of the business. The excuse is that they take too long to skin, they smell...there is no money in wolves... make money off the marten, lynx, fisher, wolverine, etc. The trapper is responsible for managing the fur on their lines. Too many people have lines that shouldn't. A trap line is a way for a city person (not all of them) to feel like a bushman.

[ffw12]

I am against poisoning. Hire some people to trap wolves. If the local trappers are not interested, put a bounty on them...get people interested. The problem is the registered trap lines are hard to get on. Unless there is an amendment or a local senior registered trapper is willing to take on a bunch of junior partners, the government could make an amendment to allow persons eligible to trap the opportunity to trap the area to be poisoned and have a bounty. The bounty system would be cheaper then a chopper. It might not be an overnight fix, but I believe it could get numbers under control.

[RockyMountainMusic]

Here is a great article from the Edmonton journal today about the subject! Hopefully the link works! Sad watching the helicopters out here right now!


http://www.edmontonjournal.com/touch...ref_map=%5b%5d

[RockyMountainMusic]

I can't believe the attention and news coverage over a legal coyote shoot and yet this people just accept and turn a blind eye! There is talk about a province sales tax and yet the can afford thousands of dollars an hour to fly choppers for this and look for animal tracks...... My vent for the day!

[BorealGhost]

Hi Nicaragua, thank you so much for your input. I for one have seen stuff written about bears being predators of ungulate calves in many areas. I agree with your reasoning regarding the bears. And, definitely something that should be looked into. And I totally disagree with poisoning and those spray stories.
I've talked to biologists working in the forestry industry, they are not happy with the gov't and bemoan that the gov't won't listen to them regarding what is replanted, it certainly isn't what was cut down. Pretty sure the gov't is not listening to them regarding the culling and poisoning. If they are they need new biologists. Just my nickels worth guys. It's an emotional issue all around.

[Shrike]

I seriously wonder if Alberta has not developed tunnel vision in their approach to their caribou conservation program. Good grief Bob Stuart is a very experienced and successful biologist. Being a retired biologist myself, I remember Bob Stuart and his very successful program.
Our Alberta bios should sit down with Bob and his crew and hear him out.
My personal question is whether we can justify continuously killing the huge number of moose and other ungulates for poison bait besides the non targeted species, to save a small tethering herd of caribou. This herd has been tottering on the brink for decades now. We have to ask ourselves seriously if this little herd is viable. Predator control can be effective short term help if a viable population goes down due to say a couple of bad winters, then gets heavily hit by predators. Short term removal of predators then can be very helpful for that population to recover.
Can this caribou population survive without continuous help? I remember this question went already around in the late eighties. At that time factors of decline were human activity like road kills, habitat removal by clear cutting or fire, building roads, oil and industrial activity, shooting because of mistaken identity, poaching and predation. It probably is still is a combination of the same old factors combined.
Seems Alberta is continuing to prop this little herd up no matter what the cost to other wildlife resources, while they may even be targeting the wrong predator!
A caribou herd in Alberta would be very nice, but it should be one that is viable, that can survive the above onslaught.
If not, may be............we should let it be and let it slide into extinction.
Sounds hard and uncaring, but after decades of trying to save the population is not producing the desired results, it never may and our resources should be put to work where they will do good, rather then a well meant but misguided government effort, saving that what can not be saved. It does supply some bios and techs with an ongoing job, but that is not the purpose of the exercise.
When it comes to terms like endangered and at risk Often a tremendous zeal develops to save it and that is admirable. Asking if it is worth the cost is unfortunate frequently regarded as heresy.
In the mean time I fully agree with Bob. Online hand wringing accomplishes nothing, while letters to the Minister do get attention.

[KegRiver]

Originally Posted by Shrike

I seriously wonder if Alberta has not developed tunnel vision in their approach to their caribou conservation program. Good grief Bob Stuart is a very experienced and successful biologist. Being a retired biologist myself, I remember Bob Stuart and his very successful program.
Our Alberta bios should sit down with Bob and his crew and hear him out.
My personal question is whether we can justify continuously killing the huge number of moose and other ungulates for poison bait besides the non targeted species, to save a small tethering herd of caribou. This herd has been tottering on the brink for decades now. We have to ask ourselves seriously if this little herd is viable. Predator control can be effective short term help if a viable population goes down due to say a couple of bad winters, then gets heavily hit by predators. Short term removal of predators then can be very helpful for that population to recover.
Can this caribou population survive without continuous help? I remember this question went already around in the late eighties. At that time factors of decline were human activity like road kills, habitat removal by clear cutting or fire, building roads, oil and industrial activity, shooting because of mistaken identity, poaching and predation. It probably is still is a combination of the same old factors combined.
Seems Alberta is continuing to prop this little herd up no matter what the cost to other wildlife resources, while they may even be targeting the wrong predator!
A caribou herd in Alberta would be very nice, but it should be one that is viable, that can survive the above onslaught.
If not, may be............we should let it be and let it slide into extinction.
Sounds hard and uncaring, but after decades of trying to save the population is not producing the desired results, it never may and our resources should be put to work where they will do good, rather then a well meant but misguided government effort, saving that what can not be saved. It does supply some bios and techs with an ongoing job, but that is not the purpose of the exercise.
When it comes to terms like endangered and at risk Often a tremendous zeal develops to save it and that is admirable. Asking if it is worth the cost is unfortunate frequently regarded as heresy.
In the mean time I fully agree with Bob. Online hand wringing accomplishes nothing, while letters to the Minister do get attention.

Well said. That is a very good question you raise. I agree, at some point we need to ask, where do we draw the line?
At what point does spending more time, money and other resources no longer make sense?

Clearly there has to be a limit. I can't believe that any reasonable individual would agree with spending the entire provincial budget on any one project.
So where is that line?

But I have deeper concerns with this issue. First I don't believe it is about preserving the Caribou herd, not from the politicians prospective.
Oh I'm sure that the people in the field see it that way, but the people behind this project, the politicians dance to a different drummer.

The only thing that motivates them is their political hides. So one has to ask, what is in it for them.

I think one clue lies in the protests we see here on these threads.
Protests about Wolves killing the Moose and Deer.

Another clue is what has been happening with the fenced hunts and domesticated wildlife issues.

Look at it from a politicians prospective. You could figuratively kill two birds with one stone on this issue.
You could appease the environmentalists by appearing to care about a dwindling herd of Caribou while at the same time appease the anti Wolf crowd by appearing to be doing something about the high Wolf population.

That's a win win for a politician. Of course you wouldn't want to end the program no matter if it made sense economically or not, if this were the motivation.

I doubt we will ever know what the true motivation behind this program is. We may guess correctly at some of it. Some of it may even be what they claim the motivation is. Certainly for those with boots in the flied I believe that is their motivation. I believe they really care about the Caribou.

But for the people at the decision making level, I doubt they care about anything more then their political carriers.

I've had a peek behind the scenes and I can tell you it's ugly back there.
Really really ugly.

If people only knew what goes on behind the scene they would be outraged. And that's putting it mildly in the extreme.

I can tell you this, the corruption in this government goes right to the very top. Those in the know dare say nothing. It is that bad.

I'm just one little guy and no one is going to listen to me. I know that and they know that. Nothing I do or say is going to change anything.
But you younger people, if you don't start asking the hard questions, one of these days you will wake up to discover that it is too late.

Frankly, I think we are well past that point already.

This Wolf poisoning program is just one small indication of what lies beyond.

In my opinion, our only hope is to get rid of all the old crew and start all over again.

Make your vote count this time. Vote anything but PC.

[Big Grey Wolf]

Keg, you "hit the nail on the head" on this issue. A previous major study on caribou stated that habitat and preditation were main causes of caribou decline. Thus they did not want to stop cutting trees, making lumber/pulp and providing access for the oil companies. Thus the polititions deceided to implement part of the master plan and appear to be doing something without getting forestry and oil companies mad and providing less money for reelection.

[Snowdog]

Thanks Cat, will check my zones

[Freddy]

Crap like this went out fifty years ago.

[RockyMountainMusic]

http://blog.wildernessprints.com/201...nting.html?m=1

[Torkdiesel]

I have heard rumours of the cull being expanded now into other areas of the province. Has anybody talked to a biologist that can confirm or deny this.