Go Back   Alberta Outdoorsmen Forum > Main Category > Guns & Ammo Discussion

Reply
 
Thread Tools Display Modes
  #121  
Old 12-09-2017, 09:55 PM
Smokinyotes Smokinyotes is offline
 
Join Date: Jan 2013
Location: onoway, Ab
Posts: 6,956
Default

This thread could go on and on arguing the merits of everyones personal favourite. In reality there is not one specific caliber that shines above the rest. The 6.5's, .270, 7mm, .308 and.338 all kill game effectively with well placed shots. The majority of us own more than one rifle that overlap with other rifles we own. Its just that we like guns and shiny things.
Reply With Quote
  #122  
Old 12-09-2017, 10:18 PM
270person 270person is offline
 
Join Date: Nov 2016
Location: Edmonton
Posts: 6,496
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Nyksta View Post

the 270 is lighter bullets, and different powders than the 3006. It has less recoil and less energy, but it is a good popular option if 3006 was too much kick for someone

Heres my take on cartridges.

1. 7mmRemMag my opinion is the best shooter of all cartridges, but too big for me.
2. 3006 kicks harder than i enjoy in my light rifles
3. 308 win perfect recoil and i like short action
4. 270 win same recoil as 308 , a bit flatter shooting, but the skinner calibre drops its hole size ability and id rather go short action
5. 7mm-08 better recoil, nice but ill stick with the more popular 308 since i can do that recoil
6. 25-06 pretty cool, but my opinion would go to 270 win if i was to do long action.
7. 6.5 creedmore seems nice but too rare and im comfortable with more recoil so ill take higher energy of 7mm-08 or 308
8. 243 win. Super small recoil. Great for that purpose.

Get the biggest cartridge you can comfortably enjoy

No real issues with any of the above but just to nitpick a little.

- recoil between 30-06 and 7RM is nada
- recoil between either of the above and the .270 is close to nada - I notice very little variance between my 270 and 7RM and both rifles have similar stocks.

- bigger hole with a 308 than a 270? Load 150 partitions into both and at all yardages the 270 is faster, flatter, and retains more energy so I'm confused as to how the 308 carves bigger holes. If you don't like that comp have a look at 140 AB's in the 270 vs 165's in the 308. The margins get even wider in favor of the 270. So I don't think a 308 will do a darn thing better hunting wise than a 270 other than shorten up your action (not really a factor in BA rifles), lower your brass cost for reloading, and allow one to shoot bigger bullets if you think that helps. If I'm in need of those the 308 is way down my list of choices.

Go back to the early days of the 270. If I'm not mistaken they had to slow it down to keep it from creating too much carnage on game. I don't really understand the poor acceptance levels for a cartridge that outdoes so many by a healthy margin in so many circumstances.

Maybe being an older cartridge it just can't run with the new cool kids on the block like the 7-08.
Reply With Quote
  #123  
Old 12-09-2017, 10:32 PM
JD848 JD848 is offline
 
Join Date: Dec 2011
Posts: 2,844
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by 270person View Post
No real issues with any of the above but just to nitpick a little.

- recoil between 30-06 and 7RM is nada
- recoil between either of the above and the .270 is close to nada - I notice very little variance between my 270 and 7RM and both rifles have similar stocks.

- bigger hole with a 308 than a 270? Load 150 partitions into both and at all yardages the 270 is faster, flatter, and retains more energy so I'm confused as to how the 308 carves bigger holes. If you don't like that comp have a look at 140 AB's in the 270 vs 165's in the 308. The margins get even wider in favor of the 270. So I don't think a 308 will do a darn thing better hunting wise than a 270 other than shorten up your action (not really a factor in BA rifles), lower your brass cost for reloading, and allow one to shoot bigger bullets if you think that helps. If I'm in need of those the 308 is way down my list of choices.

Go back to the early days of the 270. If I'm not mistaken they had to slow it down to keep it from creating too much carnage on game. I don't really understand the poor acceptance levels for a cartridge that outdoes so many by a healthy margin in so many circumstances.

Maybe being an older cartridge it just can't run with the new cool kids on the block like the 7-08.
That is only your choice,lotsa of good old cartridges and the new cool kid bought one 37 years ago ,meaning me a 7mm 08 at gun store in kenora Ontario in 1980 or 81.Nothing new to me, specially guys who try and tell what there pet cartridge other's should shoot.Plus your wrong on the 270.In fact the 7mm/308 wildcat came out in 1958 which is almost the same as the 7mm 08.

Last edited by JD848; 12-09-2017 at 10:43 PM.
Reply With Quote
  #124  
Old 12-09-2017, 10:32 PM
Coiloil37's Avatar
Coiloil37 Coiloil37 is offline
 
Join Date: Aug 2009
Location: Oz
Posts: 2,109
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by 270person View Post
No real issues with any of the above but just to nitpick a little.

- recoil between 30-06 and 7RM is nada
- recoil between either of the above and the .270 is close to nada - I notice very little variance between my 270 and 7RM and both rifles have similar stocks.

- bigger hole with a 308 than a 270? Load 150 partitions into both and at all yardages the 270 is faster, flatter, and retains more energy so I'm confused as to how the 308 carves bigger holes. If you don't like that comp have a look at 140 AB's in the 270 vs 165's in the 308. The margins get even wider in favor of the 270. So I don't think a 308 will do a darn thing better hunting wise than a 270 other than shorten up your action (not really a factor in BA rifles), lower your brass cost for reloading, and allow one to shoot bigger bullets if you think that helps. If I'm in need of those the 308 is way down my list of choices.

Go back to the early days of the 270. If I'm not mistaken they had to slow it down to keep it from creating too much carnage on game. I don't really understand the poor acceptance levels for a cartridge that outdoes so many by a healthy margin in so many circumstances.

Maybe being an older cartridge it just can't run with the new cool kids on the block like the 7-08.
As per Nosler a .308 can start a 150 a little over a 100 fps faster then a .270 can start a 150. The .308 can start a 165 the same speed the .270 starts it's 150.

I didn't bother to run them through the calculator to check down range velocity but my money says they're to close to care. Lets not forget the .308 can also shoot 180-240 grain bullets as well.

Just keeping the facts straight, I use a .270 and don't even own a .308 anymore.
Reply With Quote
  #125  
Old 12-09-2017, 10:45 PM
marxman's Avatar
marxman marxman is offline
 
Join Date: Feb 2013
Posts: 1,844
Default

I often hear how gun company hype sells the creed, why didnt it sell other fine young thing cartridges. Its because the creed makes perfect sense in its niche unlike the 260 which i own and like. However why would you want a creed in t3 when you can have a swede which i also own and like. I also own and almost never shoot a 270 which probly makes most sense for flat shooting non magnum power over hunting range except for maybe the 30 06 we are starting to get up in recoil.
Reply With Quote
  #126  
Old 12-09-2017, 10:51 PM
Don_Parsons Don_Parsons is offline
 
Join Date: Jul 2016
Posts: 1,827
Default

Friends don't let friends shot 168's.

Always more wrong then wrong. Ha

Don
Reply With Quote
  #127  
Old 12-10-2017, 07:05 AM
Don_Parsons Don_Parsons is offline
 
Join Date: Jul 2016
Posts: 1,827
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Kurt505 View Post
147gr hornady ELDX from a 6.5 creed = 1428 @ 500yds

168gr hornady A-max from a 308 = 1261 @ 500yds

Right from hornady's web page.

Just sayin.

https://www.hornady.com/ammunition/r...r-eld-match#!/

https://www.hornady.com/ammunition/r...68-gr-a-max#!/

As mentioned, depends on the sources where the information is gathered I guess.

I'm guessing that the folks that reload their own ammo find data that works for then.

BULLET WEIGHT168 GR. SIE HPBT
ManufacturerHodgdon
PowderCFE 223
Bullet Diameter.308"
C.O.L.2.800"
Starting Load
Grains46.6
Velocity (ft/s)2,662
Pressure48,200 PSI
Maximum Load
Grains49.0
Velocity (ft/s)2,828
Pressure60,400 PSI

Range Drop Drop Windage Windage Velocity Mach Energy Time Lead Lead
(m) (in) (MOA) (in) (MOA) (ft/s) (none) (ft•lbs) (s) (in) (MOA)
0 -1.5 *** 0.0 *** 2856.1 2.558 3042.5 0.000 0.0 ***
100 -0.0 -0.0 0.7 0.6 2658.0 2.381 2635.1 0.119 21.0 18.3
200 -4.4 -1.9 3.1 1.3 2467.4 2.210 2270.7 0.247 43.5 19.0
300 -15.6 -4.5 7.2 2.1 2284.7 2.046 1946.9 0.385 67.8 19.7
400 -34.9 -7.6 13.3 2.9 2110.2 1.890 1660.9 0.535 94.1 20.5
500 -63.4 -11.1 21.6 3.8 1943.6 1.741 1409.0 0.697 122.6 21.

1409 ft-lbs energy.

I guess 19 ft-lbs energy difference using The IMR data info and JBM calculater might not work for us.

Hopefully wrong of course

Don
Reply With Quote
  #128  
Old 12-10-2017, 07:21 AM
Don_Parsons Don_Parsons is offline
 
Join Date: Jul 2016
Posts: 1,827
Default

Funny thing is that Hornady them selves list the A Max 168gr at 500 yards at 1535 ft-lbs energy.

https://www.hornady.com/ammunition/r...mance-match#!/

Kinda strange they would say they would flip flop on their own Web sight.

Oh well.

Don
Reply With Quote
  #129  
Old 12-10-2017, 07:23 AM
1899b's Avatar
1899b 1899b is offline
 
Join Date: Oct 2009
Location: Sherwood Park Ab
Posts: 6,279
Default

I have read these same type of discussions verbatim since I subscribed to the internet in 1995. One thing I do know is to not trust any published data until you chrony it yourself be it reloading data or what factory loads claim.
__________________
An awful lot of big game was killed with the .30-06 including the big bears before everyone became affluent enough to own a rifle for every species of game they might hunt.
Reply With Quote
  #130  
Old 12-10-2017, 07:42 AM
Wisebuck's Avatar
Wisebuck Wisebuck is offline
 
Join Date: Aug 2011
Location: North east AB
Posts: 396
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by 1899b View Post
I have read these same type of discussions verbatim since I subscribed to the internet in 1995. One thing I do know is to not trust any published data until you chrony it yourself be it reloading data or what factory loads claim.
X2.
As I don’t own a chrono I just worry about moa and over pressuring. Get best moa without over pressures.
__________________
Huntin and fishin fool!
Reply With Quote
  #131  
Old 12-10-2017, 07:58 AM
elkhunter11 elkhunter11 is offline
 
Join Date: Dec 2008
Location: Camrose
Posts: 44,834
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Don_Parsons View Post
Funny thing is that Hornady them selves list the A Max 168gr at 500 yards at 1535 ft-lbs energy.

https://www.hornady.com/ammunition/r...mance-match#!/

Kinda strange they would say they would flip flop on their own Web sight.

Oh well.

Don
This is the Superformance load. The Superformance loads produce more velocity than the standard loads, and there are good reasons why handloaders can't duplicate the Superformance loads? Hornady actually explains how the Superformance loads differ from the standard loads on their site.
__________________
Only accurate guns are interesting.

Last edited by elkhunter11; 12-10-2017 at 08:18 AM.
Reply With Quote
  #132  
Old 12-10-2017, 09:17 AM
Don_Parsons Don_Parsons is offline
 
Join Date: Jul 2016
Posts: 1,827
Default

Totally agree Elk, getting the 168gr'ers into the 2850 ft-per seconds at muzzle is do-able using the CFE 223 powder @ 60.400 psi,,, "still a hot load mind you."

At least it produces 1400 ft-lbs energy down range beyond the "normal" Harvesting distances.

That's the benefit of the 30 cal 178 grainer @ 2700 ft-per seconds with Varget or IMR 4064.
The 178gr is about 35 ft-lbs less energy at that distance, but it has a fraction of better BC, SD, and bucks the winds nice. I'm sure that the 6.5 and 308 are both good cartrages.

The critters probably wouldn't know the difference. Ha.

All good

Don
Reply With Quote
  #133  
Old 12-10-2017, 09:22 AM
raised by wolves raised by wolves is offline
 
Join Date: Dec 2007
Posts: 1,277
Default

Although my fav is a 270WSM with 140gr Accubonds or 130gr TSX, a 270Win with 130-150gr will flatten the giant, armoured elk often mentioned on this forum. It can be loaded hot with Gucci bullets or ammo can be found on any shelf. Recoil is very mild.
Reply With Quote
  #134  
Old 12-10-2017, 09:34 AM
catnthehat's Avatar
catnthehat catnthehat is offline
 
Join Date: Jun 2007
Location: Ft. McMurray
Posts: 38,529
Default

What amuses me is that people go after elk or moose with a bow and it's all good, but as soon as people start talking rifles it seems that one needs some great humongous amount of energy at 300 yards and a certain bullet blah, blah, blah.
The cartridge and rifle are the smallest part of the equation in hunting, especially with the choices these days.

Danged near anything will work that is legal, the parameters being the hunter's own limitations , be it in a bolt, falling block or break action or any other action of rifle for that matter.

The length difference between a short action and a long action is so small it is laughable, especially considering some rifles do not come in true true short actions !

Wanna look at short actions?
Take a look at the Ruger no.1, Browning 1885, Sharps, H&R, etc.
Now THOSE are real short action rifles, they just doon't have magazines!!
Cat
__________________
Anytime I figure I've got this long range thing figured out, I just strap into the sling and irons and remind myself that I don't!
Reply With Quote
  #135  
Old 12-10-2017, 10:13 AM
Nyksta Nyksta is offline
 
Join Date: Dec 2014
Location: Calgary
Posts: 1,543
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Don_Parsons View Post
As mentioned, depends on the sources where the information is gathered I guess.

I'm guessing that the folks that reload their own ammo find data that works for then.

BULLET WEIGHT168 GR. SIE HPBT
ManufacturerHodgdon
PowderCFE 223
Bullet Diameter.308"
C.O.L.2.800"
Starting Load
Grains46.6
Velocity (ft/s)2,662
Pressure48,200 PSI
Maximum Load
Grains49.0
Velocity (ft/s)2,828
Pressure60,400 PSI

Range Drop Drop Windage Windage Velocity Mach Energy Time Lead Lead
(m) (in) (MOA) (in) (MOA) (ft/s) (none) (ft•lbs) (s) (in) (MOA)
0 -1.5 *** 0.0 *** 2856.1 2.558 3042.5 0.000 0.0 ***
100 -0.0 -0.0 0.7 0.6 2658.0 2.381 2635.1 0.119 21.0 18.3
200 -4.4 -1.9 3.1 1.3 2467.4 2.210 2270.7 0.247 43.5 19.0
300 -15.6 -4.5 7.2 2.1 2284.7 2.046 1946.9 0.385 67.8 19.7
400 -34.9 -7.6 13.3 2.9 2110.2 1.890 1660.9 0.535 94.1 20.5
500 -63.4 -11.1 21.6 3.8 1943.6 1.741 1409.0 0.697 122.6 21.

1409 ft-lbs energy.

I guess 19 ft-lbs energy difference using The IMR data info and JBM calculater might not work for us.

Hopefully wrong of course

Don
Its hard to see what the chart means but what is it showing
Reply With Quote
  #136  
Old 12-10-2017, 11:29 AM
1899b's Avatar
1899b 1899b is offline
 
Join Date: Oct 2009
Location: Sherwood Park Ab
Posts: 6,279
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by catnthehat View Post
What amuses me is that people go after elk or moose with a bow and it's all good, but as soon as people start talking rifles it seems that one needs some great humongous amount of energy at 300 yards and a certain bullet blah, blah, blah.
The cartridge and rifle are the smallest part of the equation in hunting, especially with the choices these days.

Danged near anything will work that is legal, the parameters being the hunter's own limitations , be it in a bolt, falling block or break action or any other action of rifle for that matter.

The length difference between a short action and a long action is so small it is laughable, especially considering some rifles do not come in true true short actions !

Wanna look at short actions?
Take a look at the Ruger no.1, Browning 1885, Sharps, H&R, etc.
Now THOSE are real short action rifles, they just doon't have magazines!!
Cat
Yup the .30-30 Winchester is just a pop gun but come Aug 25th folks are out hunting moose and elk with a string and a sharp stick.
__________________
An awful lot of big game was killed with the .30-06 including the big bears before everyone became affluent enough to own a rifle for every species of game they might hunt.
Reply With Quote
  #137  
Old 12-10-2017, 11:47 AM
Coiloil37's Avatar
Coiloil37 Coiloil37 is offline
 
Join Date: Aug 2009
Location: Oz
Posts: 2,109
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by 1899b View Post
Yup the .30-30 Winchester is just a pop gun but come Aug 25th folks are out hunting moose and elk with a string and a sharp stick.
You two realize a PROPERLY setup bow/arrow will provide a pass through on hippo, elephant, cape and water buff etc? A good bowhunter realizes the limitations of his gear and physical ability and works with them, as should a good rifle hunter.
With either rifle or bow a thinking man will plan for what animals he wants to shoot at the angles he wants to be able to shoot them at and live within those limitations.

Who's going hippo hunting with a 30-30?
Reply With Quote
  #138  
Old 12-10-2017, 11:55 AM
Kurt505 Kurt505 is offline
Banned
 
Join Date: May 2009
Location: Communist state
Posts: 13,245
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Coiloil37 View Post

Who's going hippo hunting with a 30-30?
Reply With Quote
  #139  
Old 12-10-2017, 01:32 PM
1899b's Avatar
1899b 1899b is offline
 
Join Date: Oct 2009
Location: Sherwood Park Ab
Posts: 6,279
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Coiloil37 View Post
Who's going hippo hunting with a 30-30?
Nobody in the WMU’s I hunt..
__________________
An awful lot of big game was killed with the .30-06 including the big bears before everyone became affluent enough to own a rifle for every species of game they might hunt.
Reply With Quote
  #140  
Old 12-10-2017, 02:03 PM
Don_Parsons Don_Parsons is offline
 
Join Date: Jul 2016
Posts: 1,827
Default

Totally agree Cat.

My arrows have taken some ok critters.

Don
Reply With Quote
  #141  
Old 12-10-2017, 03:26 PM
gitrdun gitrdun is offline
Banned
 
Join Date: Nov 2009
Location: High River, AB
Posts: 10,788
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Don_Parsons View Post
Totally agree Cat.

My arrows have taken some ok critters.

Don
Pictures of critters and arrows, please.
Reply With Quote
  #142  
Old 12-10-2017, 04:13 PM
Ossie Ossie is offline
 
Join Date: Feb 2015
Posts: 57
Default

If you already are a fan of the BLR, go with a BLR in 7 mm rem mag. The gun in 7mm rem mag weighs about a pound a oz. heavier than your 308, with of course longer action and longer barrel, but recoil would be about the same as your 308....muscle memory and the same recoil should make for an easy transition.
Interestingly enough the BlR rem mag weighs a full pound (according to specs) more than a BLR in 270 wsm, or 300 wsm, so recoil with the rem mag is going to be markedly less than these other calibers with similar performance.
Less recoil means more fun in practise, and more accuracy when it counts...
Reply With Quote
  #143  
Old 12-10-2017, 04:38 PM
Wisebuck's Avatar
Wisebuck Wisebuck is offline
 
Join Date: Aug 2011
Location: North east AB
Posts: 396
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Ossie View Post
If you already are a fan of the BLR, go with a BLR in 7 mm rem mag. The gun in 7mm rem mag weighs about a pound a oz. heavier than your 308, with of course longer action and longer barrel, but recoil would be about the same as your 308....muscle memory and the same recoil should make for an easy transition.
Interestingly enough the BlR rem mag weighs a full pound (according to specs) more than a BLR in 270 wsm, or 300 wsm, so recoil with the rem mag is going to be markedly less than these other calibers with similar performance.
Less recoil means more fun in practise, and more accuracy when it counts...
Mines a blr81. Steel receiver and straight stock. Don’t care for the lightenings aluminum receiver and pistol grips. If I found a blr 81 7mm long action in good shape I might.
__________________
Huntin and fishin fool!
Reply With Quote
  #144  
Old 12-10-2017, 05:20 PM
Pathfinder76 Pathfinder76 is offline
 
Join Date: May 2007
Posts: 15,769
Default

Has shot placement been considered yet?
__________________
“I love it when clients bring Berger bullets. It means I get to kill the bear.”

-Billy Molls
Reply With Quote
  #145  
Old 12-10-2017, 05:23 PM
Lefty-Canuck's Avatar
Lefty-Canuck Lefty-Canuck is offline
 
Join Date: Dec 2010
Location: Look behind you :)
Posts: 27,775
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by chuck View Post
Has shot placement been considered yet?
Shoot I didn't think of that! Did the merits of the .270 vs. 30-06 get settled either?



LC
__________________
Reply With Quote
  #146  
Old 12-10-2017, 06:07 PM
Don_Parsons Don_Parsons is offline
 
Join Date: Jul 2016
Posts: 1,827
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by gitrdun View Post
Pictures of critters and arrows, please.

Via PM only my friend, I mentioned a while back, I won't share game harvests on open forums.

Don
Reply With Quote
  #147  
Old 12-10-2017, 06:19 PM
Pathfinder76 Pathfinder76 is offline
 
Join Date: May 2007
Posts: 15,769
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Don_Parsons View Post
Via PM only my friend, I mentioned a while back, I won't share game harvests on open forums.

Don
There are a lot of guys like this. I just refuse to post my best heads. Laughing!
__________________
“I love it when clients bring Berger bullets. It means I get to kill the bear.”

-Billy Molls
Reply With Quote
  #148  
Old 12-10-2017, 06:46 PM
cowmanbob cowmanbob is offline
 
Join Date: Mar 2011
Posts: 1,560
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by chuck View Post
There are a lot of guys like this. I just refuse to post my best heads. Laughing!
I just refuse to post my worst heads. Laughing!
Reply With Quote
  #149  
Old 12-10-2017, 06:53 PM
Dick284's Avatar
Dick284 Dick284 is offline
 
Join Date: May 2007
Location: Dreadful Valley
Posts: 14,586
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Don_Parsons View Post
Via PM only my friend, I mentioned a while back, I won't share game harvests on open forums.

Don
Interesting position.
__________________


There are no absolutes

Last edited by Dick284; 12-10-2017 at 06:59 PM.
Reply With Quote
  #150  
Old 12-10-2017, 07:11 PM
Don_Parsons Don_Parsons is offline
 
Join Date: Jul 2016
Posts: 1,827
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Dick284 View Post
Interesting position.
Not really, like my post above mentioned, ok critters.

Even if they were Bruins, I still wouldn't post them.
Harvesting is self, self best at what we are pursuing.
I have no record book this or that since I'm a game harvester.

Nothing more, and nothing less.

Claim to fame of nothing but my own personal best of what critters allow them selves to be harvested.

Don

PS: Offer still stands
Reply With Quote
Reply

Thread Tools
Display Modes

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off

Forum Jump


All times are GMT -6. The time now is 10:52 AM.


Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.5
Copyright ©2000 - 2024, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.