whats MOA????

[redneck posse]

ok stupid question time agian.. what do you guys mean when you talk about MOA, sub MOA and such ? i'm lost!! thanks kevin

[catnthehat]

MOA stands for minute of angle, which is roughly 1" at 100 yards, 2" at 200 yards, and so on.
it is not EXACTLY 1" mind you, but close enough....
Cat

[harv3589]

Guess I am slow on the draw here.........catnthehat beat me to it.

[raised by wolves]

It comes from the measurement of angle ray based on 60 minutes in a miliradian (did I spell this correctly?). The rifle is considered a fixed point, the lateral measurement of the shot grouping is the MOA. Like the other fellows already stated, 1 MOA is about an inch at 100.

When you see "sub MOA" attached to rifle advertising, the manufacturer guarantees that a particular load will result in a grouping of less than 1 inch diametre at the 100 yard range.

[LongDraw]

You will also notice that alot of guns on the internet shoot 1/4 MOA "all day",
however they are rarely if ever spotted at a gun range?

[Prdtrgttr]

Very well stated Long Draw!

[Janitor Pants]

Originally Posted by LongDraw

You will also notice that alot of guns on the internet shoot 1/4 MOA "all day",
however they are rarely if ever spotted at a gun range?

That's because when the bullets fly down the internet cables they can't go any other way but straight at the target.

[redneck posse]

thanks guys know i know

[Tredeb]

Originally Posted by raised by wolves

It comes from the measurement of angle ray based on 60 minutes in a miliradian (did I spell this correctly?). The rifle is considered a fixed point, the lateral measurement of the shot grouping is the MOA. Like the other fellows already stated, 1 MOA is about an inch at 100.

When you see "sub MOA" attached to rifle advertising, the manufacturer guarantees that a particular load will result in a grouping of less than 1 inch diametre at the 100 yard range.

There are 60 minutes in 1 degree of angle. radians are are a different measurement of angle where there are 2pi or 6.283 radians in a circle as opposed to 360 degrees.

at any rate, 1 minute over 100yds is very close to 1" - as already mentioned

[TheClash]

so on this topic...to have a sum MOA gun how much of it is the bun and how much the shooter?? i am sure it isn't always..if ever... a 50/50 split?

[russ]

Originally Posted by LongDraw

You will also notice that alot of guns on the internet shoot 1/4 MOA "all day",
however they are rarely if ever spotted at a gun range?

That's because the owner is busy shooting 3" groups @ 90m with his long bow on rifle shooting days. And shooting 1/4MOA groups on archery tournament days. This is all at home in the backyard in town of course, since they only shoot to get the gear ready for hunting!

[Dick284]

When fellers are quoting the sub MOA standard for firearms, it is typical that this distinction is given for results obtained while at the bench, therefore as much of the human element is removed from the equation as possible. With that in mind some individuals are more capable of removing the human element than others.

FWIW: dedicated bench rest shooters can wring 5 shot groups in the 0.2 to 0.3 MOA range if they are on their game, that's with specially prepared brass, custom manufactured bullets, custom built, or special style reloading dies, wind flags, high powerd fixed magnification scopes, trued and squared actions, custom grade hand lapped barrels.
Even Sub MOA hunting rifles are usually only given this desigantion on 3 shot groups, and after being test fired in a underground tunnel, with people who make a living shooting groups.
For a non custom made rifle to consistantly bring Sub MOA groups day in day out in a caliber larger than a .224" centerfire, is highly un likely , and when it does come along, someone better treat it right.

[nekred]

I have one such rifle and it is a complet fluke.

I got it from a guy that bought it at an estate sale unfired. it is a Winchester model 70 Ranger and has nothing on it to make a person think it is capable of that kind of accuracy.

I bought it because the .243 barrel was wearing out and was getting rebarrelled and I needed another rifle.

i cleaned it up mounted a cheap scope and sat on the picnic table and shot three shots into the same hole at 100 yards. I have kept that target ever since... The guy who sold it to me for $300, when he saw the result his jaw hit the floor and he had to try.... he did the same thing!....

I have used it lots and have done some work to the trigger, bedded the stock, floated the barrell, weighted the butt of the stock with lead shot to improve balance, but have not touched the action or anything and it still shoots very well.

I will never sell it and it shoots better than some custom rifles i have seen!..

Evryone that shoots it and sees the results just shake their head....in amazement

I am very sparing on the number of shots I take with it and is a once in several lifetimes kind of rifle......

The .243 i had was heavily customized and while accurate has never approached the accuracy of this rifle....

i have some amazing witnessed shots with this rifle.... Raven at 300 yards... Coyotes at 500+ yards on many occasions.... two being this winter.....

The best was a 320 yard coyote that I bet a guy fuel for the hunting trip on. it was sunning itself in the evening and I lined up on it with my bipods and then looked at the guy and he bet me fuel for the trip if i could hit the coyote... I started lining up and then had a thought and new i could not misse (I knew the range for sure as it was about 30 yards into field which is 350 yards wide.) i looked up at him again and asked.... how much if i head shoot him.... His jaw dropped and he said fuel plus $1000 bucks..... I then said how much for between the eyes.... he said "Just Shoot"

i touched the trigger and the coyote did a back flip and turned into a copter dog!...... We walked up and the entrance hole as dead center between the lookers!.......

that was one of the best shots I ever made with that rifle!..... The bugger did not pay me the $1000 because he said I set him up....after he shot the rifle.....

It is a special one and i know I will never find another one like it. My new .264 on order will be heavily customied once i get it and i doubt it will be as accurate as that one.... but i want to maintain as much life as possible in it so i can pass it down!....intact!...

[BC7stw]

I find that when I'm at the range I worry about the group size. I work to get a load that will put them under an inch. Usually I can find a combination that will do this. I do have a couple guns that shoot nice tight groups well under a MOA when I shoot them straight. In hunting rifles the difference between a 1/2 inch group and a 3/4 inch group at reasonable ranges is a mute point anyway. Even with a make shift rest a quarter or half inch means very little really. When shooting unsupported even less. I wish my unsupported shooting was effected by a 1/4 inch variance in group size.

Knowing my gun shoots well is a good confidence builder, and working up loads good practice and a great way to burn the little bit of extra time I do have.

[catnthehat]

Here's my take on it.
if a rifle will do sub MOA off the bench, great.
NW it's time to get on down, strap into a sling and jacket, or get the bipod out, and see if you can do it frm prone.
The first would be rifle, the second shooter.....
Cat

[SakoAlberta]

MOA is usually defined as 1" at 100 yds. This is a bit of an approximation as, if you do the trig, its actually about 1.047". Also, there is more than just trig/geometry at play here. For instance, if you have a 1 MOA rifle you should get about 1" groups at 100, 2" at 200, and so on.
It is actually quite possible to have 1" at 100 but actually have less than 2" at 200. There is some physics at play that cannot be explained by simple trig. Its seems that some of the vibrations a bullet picks up dampen as it travels and can leave it with a truer path further from the muzzle.

[catnthehat]

Originally Posted by SakoAlberta

MOA is usually defined as 1" at 100 yds. This is a bit of an approximation as, if you do the trig, its actually about 1.047". Also, there is more than just trig/geometry at play here. For instance, if you have a 1 MOA rifle you should get about 1" groups at 100, 2" at 200, and so on.
It is actually quite possible to have 1" at 100 but actually have less than 2" at 200. There is some physics at play that cannot be explained by simple trig. Its seems that some of the vibrations a bullet picks up dampen as it travels and can leave it with a truer path further from the muzzle.

"cow barrels" as compared to "bull barrels"!
Cat

[twofifty]

Speaking of sub-MOA internet groups.

Load development this evening, off bench/bags in the faintest of winds (barely lifted my surveying tape flag). I get one good and two very very nice 3-shot 200 yard groups from a factory rifle, an exciting surprise:

1.32" with 38.0gr H380
.695" (*) with 38.1gr " "
.679" (*) with 38.2gr " "

* these groups overprint each other into a 1.12" six shot 200 yard group when both targets are juxtaposed, an encouraging sign.

Tomorrow evening the rifle gets its first ever 200yd zero. Am bringing 10 rnds @ 38.2gr to see if this was a fluke ....Anyhow, prolly good enough for PDs.

I have no idea how these do at 100 or 300 yards...
More lies ahead....
Hmmm, I mean: more fun lies ahead.