Elk off to Sask

[mskrecek]

Was up at the archery store in whitecourt this morning and a guy pulled up with a large 5th wheel stock trailer with 5 bull elk in it. Some spectacular creatures ranging from 380ish to 420ish, off to Sask for one of them canned hunts according to him. They were bigger than 90% of what you'd see in hunting videos. More money in that now than in velvet or meat I guess.

[packhuntr]

I just dont seem to have anything good to say, and ive been sittin with im sure a real stupid look, trying to put words together. I aint even gonna try..... Huntin seasons here, and im gonna be happy, dammit.

keep a strain on er.

LOL! That's for sure, Packhuntr. My sentiments exactly.

[CNP]

Ditto..............I started on a rant then pressed delete......so here is my nothing comment

[ABDUKNUT]

Wow what an exciting hunt! Imagine that, shooting a tame elk in the middle of a hay field in Saskatchewan!

I'd say out of those 5 elk, 3 or 4 will be Moviestars in the next years round of "Hunting" videos- (Realtree, etc)

[lazy ike]

@ $25 000 us for a "Trophy Bull Elk Hunt" people are going to do it. I guess this is why the local Alberta Game Farmers have been quiet about legalizing canned hunts here, just ship them to Sask.

[lazy ike]

I came across this article and this seems like an apropriate place to paste it.

Setting up a hunting preserve
By Deerfarmer.com
Jul 25, 2003, 17:22

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As the deer and elk farming industry grows, more operators are considering setting up hunting preserves to complement the production side of their business. If you are thinking of establishing a "high wire" hunting operation, this article looks at some of the factors that you should consider.
The popularity and use of hunting preserves is growing. There are many reasons for this.

1. Fewer places to hunt - public lands are being gobbled up by development and private hunting leases. More land is being posted, and many farmers and ranchers don't permit hunting on their lands (can't blame them). Hunting preserves are an alternative.

2. Overcrowding - with less land and more people interested in hunting, public lands near large population areas get pretty crowded during the hunting season, especially on opening day. This has negative implications for hunter safety, quality of the hunting experience and availability of quality trophy animals. Hunting preserves strictly limited the number of hunters at any one time.

3. Short seasons - in many areas, hunting seasons are short - from a few days to a few weeks, usually in the late fall. Unless you can get time off work, this usually means only a few weekends are available to you to go hunting. Hunting on preserves can be done from August to December, and even longer.

4. Lack of quality animals - it is getting increasingly difficult to bag a trophy buck in the wild. There are many reasons for this. One is that selective hunting - shooting the biggest bucks - results in a drain on the genetic pool by removing the best breeders. Bad winters and poaching also take their toll of animals. Preserves offer quality trophy animals that are raised on deer and elk farms.

5. Time constraints - everyone these days seems to have to work harder and longer. It is not possible for many people to spend the time scouting before hunting season, and spending days locating, and tracking down that trophy animal. Many people have several weeks vacation time, that most of that better be spent with the family! Busy people who like to hunt are looking at options. Preserves offer longer seasons, and one to three days is all you usually need to harvest a trophy.

6. Expectation of success - people with money are usually successful in their fields of endeavor. Therefore, they expect (and require) success in their pursuit of a trophy. They are not too excited to spend two weeks with an outfitter and not even see a world-class trophy. These type of people expect results! Clients of hunting preserves usually experience 100% success rate due to the availability of large number of quality animals.

7. More disposable income - with the US and Canadian economies having done so well in the last decade, there is much more disposable income available. This includes people who like to hunt, and they are willing to spend some of their cash on a quality hunting experience. Many more people can now afford to hunt in a preserve.

8. Expense - cost of public hunting seems to be going up - everything from the cost of fees to transportation to accommodation. The cost gap between public hunting and hunting on a preserves is getting narrower.

9. Skills - the skills required for getting a trophy animal in the wild are considerable - you have to be in excellent physical shape and be a good shot. As with all things, this requires lots of practice, which in turn takes time and facilities - all which most of us don't have! Preserve hunting does not require the same level of skill, and is ideal for persons with physical limitations or disabilities.

10. Safety - as already mentioned, hunting in a crowd of people with high-powered rifles is anything but safe. Preserves limit the number of hunters at any one time.

11. Health concerns - trophies harvested in the wild run the risk of having disease such as CWD or TB. Preserve animals have been tested and are known to be disease-free.

12. Availability - if you want to hunt a wild trophy elk, you probably have to put your name into a draw. Many people won't be drawn in their lifetime. However, many preserves can offer you a hunt for a trophy elk any time you want.

13. Out-of-state fees and requirements - if you want to hunt wild deer and elk in another state or province, you get dinged with hefty license fees. Also, you usually are required to use the services of an outfitter and guide. Heck, for the same money, you can experience a quality trophy hunt on a preserve with all the advantages mentioned above.

14. Many rules and regulations - have you looked at the rules and regulations recently associated with public hunting? It is nearly impossible to remember them all and you constantly run the risk of inadvertently violating one of them. Yes, preserves have rules too, but things are a lot simpler.

15. Zealous conservation officers - most fish and game officers are a decent lot. However, there are others who take their roles too seriously and harass hunters. I really don't like to be stopped, searched and questioned when I haven't done anything wrong. This is not an issue with preserve hunting.

16. First Nations - in Canada, Natives have the right to hunt big game all year round. In certain regions, this has an impact on the numbers and quality of game animals available, and on the limits and length of seasons for other hunters.

17. Gun laws - in Canada, with the new firearm regulations, buying and owning a gun is becoming a real hassle. Many people who previously used to hunt have gotten rid of their firearms to avoid registration. However, these people can still hunt on a preserve if the operators provide the rifles or bows.

Hunting on a preserve offers a quality hunting experience devoid of all the hassles and problems described above. It is no wonder that people that love to hunt are turning to hunting preserves!

In addition to the above, hunting preserves offer a number of other broader benefits. These include such things as:

1. Support to elk and deer industries - as these continue to grow, markets are needed for the older, mature bucks and elk bulls. Hunting preserves provide greater per animal revenues for trophy animals than would any other markets such as venison.

2. Value-added revenues stay at home - hunting preserves usually pay producers 50% of the final value of the trophy animal. By having your own preserve, or by selling to a local preserve, this money stays in your pocket and in your community.

3. Increased tourism and spin-off revenues - hunting preserves can attract clients from other regions of the country, and from other countries. This brings in significant tourism revenues, and provides opportunities for other local businesses as well, e.g., motels, taxidermists, meat processors, etc.

4. Support rural communities - because of their very nature, most hunting preserves are best located in remote, rural areas. A hunting preserve, thus can contribute significantly to the sustainability and economy of rural communities.

5. Increased tourism in off-seasons - fall is the slow period with tourism in North America, but is the peak hunting season. Thus, hunting preserves can extend the tourism season in regions where they exist.

6. Relieving pressure on wild game hunting - by attracting more hunters, preserves can reduce the numbers of people who hunt on public lands and areas.

7. Improved health of animals - most of the research and health advancements related to deer and elk have been the result of work initiated, funded and supported by the deer and elk farming industry. This knowledge and strategies can also be used to diagnose and improve the health of wild herds.

8. Opportunities for handicapped hunters - many preserves offer special hunts for people with disabilities. Many of these people would not otherwise be able to enjoy this experience of a lifetime.

9. Diversion of pressure from non-resident hunters will shorten list for some draws.

Hunting preserves, like other tourism businesses, offer many environmental, ecological and economical benefits.

However, as most deer and elk farmers are aware, hunting preserves also face a number of challenges and issues.

1. Opposition - there are individuals and groups strongly opposed to hunting preserves. These include:

Members of the general public who have strong beliefs that hunting in general is wrong, and especially killing animals for sport within a confined area.
Some hunters feel that hunting in a preserves degrades the sport; that real hunters don't participate in "canned hunts."
Many hunter associations are also opposed, believing that the growth of hunting preserves will negatively impact public hunting opportunities.
Wildlife management agencies and government departments don't always fully support game farms or hunting preserves. It may have something to do with reduced revenues from public hunting licenses and risks to their jobs.
2. Regulatory environment - because hunting preserves are a contentious issue in many jurisdictions, keeping their operations legal is a challenge. Take a look at what happened in Montana where the public voted to close game farms and preserves down. This is a risk you have to seriously assess if you are planning to start up a hunting preserve.

3. Safety - neighbours of hunting preserves may raise some objections to their existence and operation. This is mainly due to safety considerations. A buffer zone and consultation with your neighbours is probably a good idea.

4. Fair chase - one of the concerns about hunting preserves is "fair chase", that the animal has an opportunity to evade the hunter. Also, it is not clear whether trophy animals shot on a preserve qualify for the record books under the guidelines of Boone & Crockett, Safari Club, BuckMasters, etc.

So if you are planning to set up a hunting preserve, here are a dozen factors you should evaluate:

1. Legality - you can't set up a hunting preserve in your state or province if they are not legally permitted. Even if they are legal, you may want to assess any movement by opponents to get them banned.

2. Organizational structure - the prevalent thinking these days seems to be to keep your game farm and hunting preserves as separate entities. Game farms are agricultural businesses, and hunting preserves are eco-tourism operations. If hunting preserves are banned, then at least the game farms can continue to operate.

3. Location - hunting preserves are best located within reasonable driving distance from large population centers. This makes it more convenient for the clients and reduces their costs. If you want to locate in North Dakota or Saskatchewan, then you better offer something extra for the addition costs, time and effort required to hunt on your preserve.

4. Positioning - up to now, most hunting preserves have catered to the wealthier clientele with fees ranging up to $25,000 for a trophy animal. Due to the factors listed above, some hunting preserves are now offering more affordable hunts in the $750 to $1,500 range. You need to decide where to "position" your hunting preserve - high, middle or low end. All marketing then must be consistent with your positioning.

5. Competition - you need to analyze and know your competition. What hunting preserves are your direct competitors? What are they offering, and what are your competitive advantages? You will need to distinguish yourself from your competition.

6. Supply of animals - where are you going to get your hunting animals? Are you going to raise them yourself, buy them or a combination? Right now, there is a shortage of quality trophy animals, especially white-tailed bucks in the 200+ category. Increased demand will drive up prices, which in turn will require you to increase your fees. As part of your planning, it is important that you source a reliable supply of trophy animals.

7. Facilities - these include the amount of land for the preserve, accommodation, lodge and other facilities needed to cater to your clients. The size of the operation should be sufficient to address the fair chase issue, e.g., 500 acres or more. You may want to have several locations to enable you have serve several hunters at the same time, while keeping overhead down. Options also include having hunters stay at local motels. It is important to remember that for the fees clients are paying to hunt, they expect to be pampered.

8. Features, services and options - the more of these you offer, the more competitive your hunting preserve will be. Is there something for families to do? Do you offer a wide range of hunts to meet everyone's needs and price range? Do you look after mounting the trophy and packaging the meat?

9. Dealing with the opposition - as indicated above, hunting preserves do have their opponents. You will need to have a plan to deal with any opposition. Some suggestions are to adopt and follow a code of ethics (see next article), to join and participate in your local and national industry associations, to offer free hunts to a handicapped person, and to constantly communicate with the local community about the benefits your operation brings.

10. Marketing - as the number of preserves grows, and the competition increases, you must have a marketing plan. This plan will likely include activities such as having a website, being listed in appropriate directories, attending hunter trade shows, ads in hunter magazines and being included in local tourism promotions.

11. Staff - any successful operation requires good management and employees. Hunting preserves are in the service business and excellent customer service is required for long-term success. Will you have the management and staff knowledge and expertise that is required to run a successful hunting preserve? If not, do you have a plan to acquire or develop these skills and competencies?

12. Financial - to set up a hunting preserve to meet the criteria discussed above will require a considerable amount of financial investment. Do you have that type of investment, or will you require some debt or equity financing? What are the implications of this financing on your profitability and control of the operation? You should do 5 to 10 year financial projections to reassure yourself that your hunting preserve will be profitable.

As with any other business venture, you should develop and prepare a comprehensive business plan for your hunting preserve. You will need one anyway if any type of financing is required. Your business plan should address all of the above factors and serve as your to-do list to get started.

Hunting preserves offer an exciting business opportunity for deer and elk farmers. Hopefully, the identification and discussion of the critical factors and issues in this article will help you decide if and how you want to proceed with setting up your own preserve.

[roger]

i guess if you dont like it then you dont have to go, its just that simple..right or wrong, left or right, agnostic or christian..someone should have the RIGHT to partake in it.
im not sticking up for the industry, nor would i ever do it...but i am representing there right to TRY it.

[Duk Dog]

That is fine and well Roger - until - they become a cause or contributor to diseases like CWD that are beginning to take a toll on our wild deer. I'll avoid the discussion of right or wrong as you have as well, and head to the meat of the issue for me - if they pose a threat to our wildlife then there is no place for them.

hmmmm.... wonder if he checks the back lock on the ol' trailer often... darn shame to see those big ol bulls runnin round Whitecourt....

[bobbypetrolia]

Those elk were not taken from the wild population, they were born and raised in captivity for slaughter. I am from Saskatchewan and have witnessed first hand the number of farmers and ranchers that have gone bankrupt, been forclosed on and forced to move off the land that has been in the family for generations. Grain and beef prices have been in the tank forever, and it seems if they are up in price, so is deisel and equipment. Its a no-win. Now that same farmer has a chance to make ten or twenty thousand dollars PER ANIMAL by allowing someone to harvest that animal instead of the $1000 the slaughterhouse would pay him? Gee, to me thats a no-brainer.
Don't get me wrong, I am not at all FOR canned-hunts, but I would also never critisize the Saskatchewan game farming industry for taking advantage of this situation.
I know I will probably receive some flak over this, but just my opinion.

[pickrel pat]

it might be better the americans are shooting farm animals. leaves more wild animals for the locals to hunt and fill their freezer. peaple make money from it and more wild animals roaming the forest, doesn't sound that bad?

[albertadave]

Pretty ballsy of them to even mention CWD in wild game populations. At least they recognize the fact it takes little or no skill to kill a pen raised animal in a small, enclosed area. Just wish they wouldn't call it hunting.

[bruteforce1]

I could go either way on this one.

CWD has been around forever, technologie is catching up with nature.

Saskatchewan has something Alberta does not. That's different.

Keep those hunters in pens that is a good place for them.

money has their own society SCI. These guys must watch alot of WWF the hero allways wins. "Losers"

just my opinion, still enjoy the forum, not looking for a fight.

later.

[Duk Dog]

Its a no-win. Now that same farmer has a chance to make ten or twenty thousand dollars PER ANIMAL by allowing someone to harvest that animal instead of the $1000 the slaughterhouse would pay him? Gee, to me thats a no-brainer.

Can't disagree with you, and people trying to make a living. However I still come back to - if game farms cause or contribute to CWD in our wild deer populations then there is no place for them. I know they can get some top dollars for these pen raised animals - but you can't put a price on the health and population of wild animals. My 2 cents.

[Rackmastr]

Originally Posted by Duk Dog

Can't disagree with you, and people trying to make a living. However I still come back to - if game farms cause or contribute to CWD in our wild deer populations then there is no place for them. I know they can get some top dollars for these pen raised animals - but you can't put a price on the health and population of wild animals. My 2 cents.

+1.....ethics and personal choices aside, my problem is the issues that come into play with CWD entering the wild populations.....

[SouthAltaHunter]

Rackmastr a few months ago you posted, looking for information to buy some farmed Elk meat. I thought it was funny that you would post something like that.

[Rackmastr]

I was lookin for a buffalo......cant remember ever asking about elk meat but I'm not exactly sure why it would matter. The elk ARE being farmed....I'd buy some if I needed meat....boycotting buyin some meat it isnt going to shut down elk farming, so no biggie in my eyes.....glad you found it funny bud.

[ABDUKNUT]

Great, so the millionaires get to shoot their 'trophy' in a cage in an area where those animals aren't even or haven't been wild for 100 years. I'm sure it's a lot of fun... but;

CWD is not going to go away.

If CWD takes hold of our wild herds, hunting as we know it is DONE. Only these Elite 'hunters' will be killing ANYTHING decent. And, when all the broke farmers switch from raising grain, to farming out 'elk hunts', well there goes all our huntin' spots. Do ya even think that the farm those elk are headed to, allows hunting to the general, or even selected public? Nope.

What we're left with is something similar to what's happened in Europe- ZERO access to ANY hunting for the average guy like you and me, while the rich Elite get to run around and fill the SCI books...

Geez, it's already happening in the States, BIG TIME, why do you think all the Americans want to come and hunt up here? The market for this type of hunting is HUGE.

Let's not let it happen here, while we sit back and debate whether it's 'right' or 'wrong'.

I think you can take that even one step further DUK......each time a ranch/farm is high fenced, that is habitat that is lost to our wild ungulates. I personally have no desire to judge those that hunt behind fences against my own ethics as it serves little purpose but it does concern me the impact and the potential impacts that these farms have on our wild populations. CWD aside, these farms have been a hotbed for other diseases that are potentially disasterous for our wild ungulates as well.

[Duk Dog]

I think you can take that even one step further DUK......each time a ranch/farm is high fenced, that is habitat that is lost to our wild ungulates. I personally have no desire to judge those that hunt behind fences against my own ethics as it serves little purpose but it does concern me the impact and the potential impacts that these farms have on our wild populations. CWD aside, these farms have been a hotbed for other diseases that are potentially disasterous for our wild ungulates as well.

x 2 Well said Sheep.

[bobbypetrolia]

I also think you should see the other side of the fence. No pun intended. Each time a tract of land is high-fenced, isn't that habitat presevation? The land is being turned back to native prairie, and creates habitat for a host of other animals and birds. Upland game thrives in this habitat.
As for CWD, it has been around forever. Always will. The reason they are finding more of it in the wild populations is that they are TESTING MORE ANIMALS! They have increased testing 1000% in the last 10 years. Do you know what would happen if we tested 1000% more people for cancer? We would have an "outbreak" of cancer.
Also just wondering what the 'hotbed' of other diseases are? BovTB?
DUK, I just turned 2000 acres back to native prairie, have no intentions of high-fencing, and will pass it down to my son that way. If you think you and yours will have no access in the future, you are more than welcome to knock on my door.

[honda450]

My feelings is that farming elk and deer should be banned, before our wild herds are gone forever.

[ABDUKNUT]

sounds like a good spot to hunt. i've hunted on a 20,000 acre farm that has reverted back to native switchgrass, and it's the largest in the US midwest. a true heaven for upland birds.

but i dont think those elk farms will let you run around with a shotgun. from what ive seen, these operations keep to themself and their customers and dont allow casual visitors... kinda like their hiding something?

[ABDUKNUT]

[QUOTE=bobbypetrolia;51080]Each time a tract of land is high-fenced, isn't that habitat presevation?[QUOTE]

No absolutely not.

fences arent and never were a part of the habitat.

[Duk Dog]

DUK, I just turned 2000 acres back to native prairie, have no intentions of high-fencing, and will pass it down to my son that way. If you think you and yours will have no access in the future, you are more than welcome to knock on my door.

Much appreciated - both the offer, as well as you preserving native prairie. Thank you.

The concerns lies with when the areas are high fenced. Wild ungulates no longer populate the fenced area - just the pen reared animals. If an area is high fenced and hunts are being charged for then the average person no longer has access to that land.

Each time a tract of land is high-fenced, isn't that habitat presevation?

No it isn't if the natural wild animals no longer live there and they can't come and go in a natural unobstructed fashion and they have been replaced by man raised animals.

[bobbypetrolia]

All I am saying is that it is alot better to be high-fenced and allow the native prairie to grow than to be tilled and seeded to grain. What species uses summer-fallow for habitat? I never said fences were a natural habitat occurance, and didn't mean that either.
Interesting chat/views boys.

[Duk Dog]

bobbypetrolia - The difference with the habitat restoration like you are doing and one behind a high fence is that yours is done naturally. All of the critters (depending of course where you live and what animals are in your area) deer, moose, elk, coyotes etc are free to come and go as nature dictates. A high fence situation is purged of these wild naturally occurring animals.

Each time a tract of land is high-fenced, isn't that habitat presevation? The land is being turned back to native prairie, and creates habitat for a host of other animals and birds. Upland game thrives in this habitat.

I guess you could look at it that way but that habitat is lost to all other ungulates so it's not the way I look at it. As for turning land back to native prairie.....that pretty much an impossibilty. Invasive species such as brome and crested wheat grass are nearly impossible to erradicate. It can be reverted back to grassland yes but native is nearly impossible. Not saying that converting back to grasslands is not a good thing...in fact it's a great thing but sadly, once native grass is tilled and crops planted...there's no going back.

Some of the diseases include blue toungue, TB, scrapie and bovine spongiform encephalopathy, and yes CWD. We can argue all day long about the origin of these diseases but there is little arguement about the fact that these diseases propagate much faster in captive environments and are a potential danger to our wild cervids. Manitoba has had their border shut down, Saskatchewan has had theirs shut down and Alberta has had their shut down for diseases in captives cervids.

[packhuntr]

Bobbypetrolia, please point me in the direction of the paper that says, and or proves that CWD has been around forever. Im tired of fighting the good fight on this one. Its too bad we have to see and live with the consequences of horribly bad decisions, made by people who think its ok to do in this world, as they please, no matter whom they adversly affect. These farms should no longer be in existence, PERIOD. If its a living these idiots are after, mabey they should have bought angus cattle. Mabey go get a job somewhere that pays the bills, yet doesnt destroy the hard work of what over 100 years of conservation and management efforts have built. Watch the sh*t fight and finger pointing start when we have to take our children to a zoo to see what a mule deer looks like.

keep a strain on er.