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Old 07-22-2017, 12:34 PM
Kurt505 Kurt505 is offline
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Default Will a good bullet help with a bad shot?

And will a bigger caliber make up for a bad bullet?

Or I s there a different formula for each individual hunter that would work best?
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Old 07-22-2017, 01:20 PM
Nyksta Nyksta is offline
 
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there is no magic wand to make a bad shot a good one.

a fatal shot will quickly stop the blood from pumping oxygen into the animals brain. ie, the large target area of the lungs and heart.

bullet construction can change the way a bullet will quickly fragment and cause large damage on impact or penetrate deeper into tissue before fragmenting and bust through possible bone or wide bodied animals.

a bigger caliber allows for a bigger bullet and more lead/copper and so more material to bust up and do damage.

but in the end, if the bullet, large or not, fragmenting or penetrating, is not aimed at the proper location of the animal, then the animal will only be injured and its other non-vital body functions will be destroyed resulting in potentially a long painful suffering.

all hunters owe it to the animal to make sure that their weapon is functioning properly and they have the skill to use it, the knowledge of the animals anatomy, and the patience to wait for a moment that is within their skill to deliver a well aimed sure-shot to the vital organs. And last but not least, the hunter must be prepared to get the meat out so that it is not spoiled by an unprepared hike out.
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Old 07-22-2017, 01:24 PM
elkdump elkdump is offline
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And will a bigger caliber make up for a bad bullet?

Or I s there a different formula for each individual hunter that would work best?
If you consider how many internet goombahs , carry a large caliber magnum rifle for big game hunting , that cannot even shoot a single shot .22 LR proficiently ???

Then the answer is absolutely , YES
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Old 07-22-2017, 01:26 PM
Desert Eagle Desert Eagle is offline
 
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I don't think they will for sure change the game. However, some difference will be in the chambering/bullet choice for marginal shots. For example....

1. Medium white tail buck shot in the brisket with 7mag, 168 better hinting VLD at 85 meters. We finally tracked him down and finished him off 7 miles later.. same shot with a Nosler Partition would have ended the chase much sooner.

2. 308 on a hard quartered elk or moose. May have to pad up shot. 300 win mag with properly sized premium bullet, still not a questionable shot.

3. Here is one experience of to "hard" of bullet. Whitetail buck large facing straight away about 350 meters. Shot a bit below the vent, 300 win mag with 180 TSX. Bullet penetrated one lung and we finally found him. But it was a long tracking process. I think that the situation would have been much different with the shock factor from a partition type bullet and put him down sooner.

4. Caliber choice. I have been luck enough to try many different calibers over the years. Some are definite hard hitters. 338 federal and 338-06 would surprise most people of their effectiveness.

Not all above animals were taken by me, but I've had the joy of a few rodeos out there.
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Old 07-22-2017, 01:28 PM
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If you gut shoot an animal with a .243 or a 338 win mag you will not successfully retrieve the animal. Please do not take 50/50 chances on game. I'm a big fan of high probability shots. Have I messed up a shot, absolutely. Would I have injured and slowly killed more game taking less than opportune shots, I guarantee it.

Big calibers do help with front quartering shots IMO that a smaller caliber would need to wait for broadside shot on...a moose for example again with the. 243 vs 338 winmag

BUT that is very different than a "bad shot"
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Old 07-22-2017, 01:34 PM
Kurt505 Kurt505 is offline
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I have a couple of experiences where I think bullet construction would have helped, but contrary to most opinions I would have preferred a bullet that will fragment over one that will penetrate.

Caliber has never played a roll in any shot or situation I've experienced while hunting.
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Old 07-22-2017, 01:50 PM
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Default I've never owned a magnum rifle.

A lot of people shoot better with less noise and recoil. I've always got by shooting accurately with my 30-06 or 243.
I don't need to shoot 600 yards and the bullet I use will preform fine with the speed it retains at 500 yards.
I'm probably going to choose the 243 for antelope if I get drawn this year over the 30-06.
It's all just personal preference really.
Mind you if I was hunting dangerous game in Africa I would shoot a 375 magnum or bigger for penetration.
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Old 07-22-2017, 02:14 PM
Deo101 Deo101 is offline
 
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How many time has this been beat to death on here? Are you bored today?
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Old 07-22-2017, 02:22 PM
Kurt505 Kurt505 is offline
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How many time has this been beat to death on here? Are you bored today?
Why are you even posting then? Don't read it, it's pretty simple.
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Old 07-22-2017, 02:24 PM
Deo101 Deo101 is offline
 
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Why are you even posting then? Don't read it, it's pretty simple.
Guess I'm bored too.

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Old 07-22-2017, 02:32 PM
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Guess I'm bored too.

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So...... big ballistic or little barnes?
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Old 07-22-2017, 02:36 PM
Deo101 Deo101 is offline
 
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So...... big ballistic or little barnes?
Lol .300win mag is all I'm using anymore. Mostly so Im covered for any NA game. That said shot placement shot placement shot placement. I don't use a .300 expecting it to compensate for a bad shot.

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Old 07-22-2017, 02:44 PM
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Default Ttsx

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So...... big ballistic or little barnes?
I love me little Barnes.
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Old 07-22-2017, 02:49 PM
Kurt505 Kurt505 is offline
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Lol .300win mag is all I'm using anymore. Mostly so Im covered for any NA game. That said shot placement shot placement shot placement. I don't use a .300 expecting it to compensate for a bad shot.

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The shot that haunts me, the one specific shot that makes me wonder about caliber and bullet construction was taken with a 300wsm using a 165gr ttsx. It was on a whitetail and hit the front shoulder broadside.

Long story short, never did recover the deer.
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Old 07-22-2017, 02:55 PM
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The shot that haunts me, the one specific shot that makes me wonder about caliber and bullet construction was taken with a 300wsm using a 165gr ttsx. It was on a whitetail and hit the front shoulder broadside.

Long story short, never did recover the deer.
Never a good feeling. I don't have experience with those bullets but I lean way more to weight retention than expansion. Partially because I'm cheap lol. Caliber likely never had as much to do with your scenario as the bullet not penetrating.

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Old 07-22-2017, 02:57 PM
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Default Should have worked fine.

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The shot that haunts me, the one specific shot that makes me wonder about caliber and bullet construction was taken with a 300wsm using a 165gr ttsx. It was on a whitetail and hit the front shoulder broadside.

Long story short, never did recover the deer.
That combination should have killed the deer no problem.
Is it a possibility you maybe pulled the shot and hit it marginally.

I use 150 gr TTSX in my 30-06 and shot a wildebeest through one shoulder through the spine then through the other shoulder and lodged in the hide on the other side that thing hit the dirt hard.

Was it a real far shot?
Because for optimal performance you want to keep the TTSX above 2000 fps

Barnes TTSX retains weight very well.
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Old 07-22-2017, 03:00 PM
Kurt505 Kurt505 is offline
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Never a good feeling. I don't have experience with those bullets but I lean way more to weight retention than expansion. Partially because I'm cheap lol. Caliber likely never had as much to do with your scenario as the bullet not penetrating.

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Barnes are supposed to penetrate but not in this case. It seems the bullet deflected big time. Broken front shoulder on a broadside shot and no blood coming out the far side. Would a 140gr ballistic tip out of my 280 have killed him? I can't help but think so.
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Old 07-22-2017, 03:06 PM
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Barnes are supposed to penetrate but not in this case. It seems the bullet deflected big time. Broken front shoulder on a broadside shot and no blood coming out the far side. Would a 140gr ballistic tip out of my 280 have killed him? I can't help but think so.
130gr ballistic tip out of my .270win has killed many white tails with that shot scenario for me.
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Old 07-22-2017, 03:12 PM
Deo101 Deo101 is offline
 
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Barnes are supposed to penetrate but not in this case. It seems the bullet deflected big time. Broken front shoulder on a broadside shot and no blood coming out the far side. Would a 140gr ballistic tip out of my 280 have killed him? I can't help but think so.
Maybe .17 cal would have found a hole between bone and did the job? Not trying to sound like an a hole but these questions always lead down a hole of anecdotal evidence.

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Old 07-22-2017, 03:20 PM
Kurt505 Kurt505 is offline
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That combination should have killed the deer no problem.
Is it a possibility you maybe pulled the shot and hit it marginally.

I use 150 gr TTSX in my 30-06 and shot a wildebeest through one shoulder through the spine then through the other shoulder and lodged in the hide on the other side that thing hit the dirt hard.

Was it a real far shot?
Because for optimal performance you want to keep the TTSX above 2000 fps

Barnes TTSX retains weight very well.
The shot was 398yds according to my rangefinder.

This is what I know. Immediately after the shot the deer dropped and never twitch for about 10min. Then the deer stood up and tried to take off doing a 20' nose plow through the field before getting up again and would hobble for about 20yds then stop for a minute or two, then hobble a bit further and stop again. There was a couple reasons for not doing a follow up shot. First off, by the way the deer was acting it didn't seem like he would make it much longer, and secondly it was now past legal shooting time so I was sure he would be dead and it wasn't worth the possibile problems that could arise if someone heard a shot 10-15min after legal shooting time. When I returned the next morning I discovered the deer had made its way across the athabasca river, the field he was in was on the banks of the river and the river was mostly frozen over, but not frozen enough for me to cross. I ended up driving for 2 hours to make it to the other side of the river, then hiking the banks for at least another 3 before I cut his tracks. Looking at his beds it was clear he was bleeding from his left shoulder and following his tracks I could see his urin was almost straight blood. Tracked him for 2 days until a snowstorm covered all his tracks. Was really close on day two, the snow in his bed was melted enough to make snowballs in -15 weather.

I've made farther shots with what some would consider lesser bullets, in smaller calibers and had better results.
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Old 07-22-2017, 03:50 PM
HIGHLANDER HUNTING HIGHLANDER HUNTING is offline
 
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And will a bigger caliber make up for a bad bullet?

Or I s there a different formula for each individual hunter that would work best?
We spoke about bullets, shot placement, and terminal performance in depth in our last podcast- if you're into podcasts, check us out.
https://highlanderhunting.podbean.com Episode 6-building a hunting rifle and ammo selection.
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Old 07-22-2017, 04:30 PM
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I think far too much emphasis is placed on ballistic coefficients and hyper velocities. Regardless of construction, a decent, well placed heavy for calibre bullet at moderate terminal velocities will seldom, if ever, disappoint. As they say, there is no replacement for displacement.
I truly believe that.
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Old 07-22-2017, 04:57 PM
Kurt505 Kurt505 is offline
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No replacement for displacement. Maybe. But not in my personal experience.

I've gone full circle on this.

Started out with a 308, moved to a 280, then a few different magnums, back down to a 280, and now back down to a 6.5 Creedmoor.

I've never noticed a difference in the performance of any of these cartridges/calibers (and a bunch of cartridges not listed) on big game, but I have noticed a difference in bullets.

In my opinion bullet construction is a good replacement for displacement.
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Old 07-22-2017, 05:05 PM
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Kurt I feel for ya man but you gotta let it go. We've heard this story several times. That bullet didn't go where it needed to. Maybe you were off, or maybe bullets do weird stuff sometimes and this was your time for bad luck. Where exactly it went and why is lost but it hardly represents Barnes performance. Shoot them in the ribs and there is a much better chance of a successful recovery. If they stand up, shoot till they don't. If they don't fall, chase em down and don't let them get out of site (all lessons I've learned the hard way as well). The bullet was only part of that story and I think you gotta focus on what you can learn from the other parts.

Now, as to the original question...no for gut shots and yes for everywhere else. More destroyed tissue means a slower target and more blood loss. Would a 225gr ttsx have penetrated better? Probably. Would it have killed that deer? Who knows. can you shoot as well with more recoil? Most can't. I don't even pretend that I want to shoot anything above 308 win.

As far as the ballistic tips, at 400 its going slow and you aren't gonna get the frag and shock effect. I doubt it would have done any better.
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Old 07-22-2017, 05:13 PM
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Default Sounds like maybe a freak deflection.

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The shot was 398yds according to my rangefinder.

This is what I know. Immediately after the shot the deer dropped and never twitch for about 10min. Then the deer stood up and tried to take off doing a 20' nose plow through the field before getting up again and would hobble for about 20yds then stop for a minute or two, then hobble a bit further and stop again. There was a couple reasons for not doing a follow up shot. First off, by the way the deer was acting it didn't seem like he would make it much longer, and secondly it was now past legal shooting time so I was sure he would be dead and it wasn't worth the possibile problems that could arise if someone heard a shot 10-15min after legal shooting time. When I returned the next morning I discovered the deer had made its way across the athabasca river, the field he was in was on the banks of the river and the river was mostly frozen over, but not frozen enough for me to cross. I ended up driving for 2 hours to make it to the other side of the river, then hiking the banks for at least another 3 before I cut his tracks. Looking at his beds it was clear he was bleeding from his left shoulder and following his tracks I could see his urin was almost straight blood. Tracked him for 2 days until a snowstorm covered all his tracks. Was really close on day two, the snow in his bed was melted enough to make snowballs in -15 weather.

I've made farther shots with what some would consider lesser bullets, in smaller calibers and had better results.
That is a long shot and if the velocity of the bullet slowed to much the bullet may not have preformed and deflected.
Maybe at that distance a softer bullet like a sierra would have worked better at that velocity.
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Old 07-22-2017, 05:27 PM
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Kurt I feel for ya man but you gotta let it go. We've heard this story several times. That bullet didn't go where it needed to. Maybe you were off, or maybe bullets do weird stuff sometimes and this was your time for bad luck. Where exactly it went and why is lost but it hardly represents Barnes performance. Shoot them in the ribs and there is a much better chance of a successful recovery. If they stand up, shoot till they don't. If they don't fall, chase em down and don't let them get out of site (all lessons I've learned the hard way as well). The bullet was only part of that story and I think you gotta focus on what you can learn from the other parts.

Now, as to the original question...no for gut shots and yes for everywhere else. More destroyed tissue means a slower target and more blood loss. Would a 225gr ttsx have penetrated better? Probably. Would it have killed that deer? Who knows. can you shoot as well with more recoil? Most can't. I don't even pretend that I want to shoot anything above 308 win.

As far as the ballistic tips, at 400 its going slow and you aren't gonna get the frag and shock effect. I doubt it would have done any better.
Ha!

I didn't want to bring up the story again, I hate talking about it as much as you hate hearing about it, but I'm sure buck culler never heard it.

I know better than not to stop shooting until it's dead, but in all honesty I did think it was dead until it was too late. I guess you had to be there. Still kicking myself.

I'm not sure what velocity the bullet was traveling but I'm sure at that distance it was as fast or faster than what a 308 would have been doing at 200yds.

The shot was a broadside hit and did bust the front left shoulder, not a clear rib shot but definitely should have found them.

I agree that the bullet is only part of the equation, I just don't know how big of a roll it played compared to caliber, cartridge, and shot placement. The bullet look like it hit exactly where I was aiming, judging from how the deer was struggling to walk. My personal thought on this particular situation is that the bullet played a big roll in the outcome.


Again I'm not sure of the velocity of a ballistic tip at 400yds out of a 300mag but I think it's still traveling within the performance rating of a ballistic tip.
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Old 07-22-2017, 05:28 PM
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That is a long shot and if the velocity of the bullet slowed to much the bullet may not have preformed and deflected.
Maybe at that distance a softer bullet like a sierra would have worked better at that velocity.
That's what I suspect must of happened, and that's what I think would have worked better.
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Old 07-22-2017, 05:30 PM
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Barnes are supposed to penetrate but not in this case. It seems the bullet deflected big time. Broken front shoulder on a broadside shot and no blood coming out the far side. Would a 140gr ballistic tip out of my 280 have killed him? I can't help but think so.
Look, if you hunt enough you will encounter situations where bullets do weird things. I have killed enough stuff with that shot and Barnes bullets to know that it works. I also shot a whitetail buck once upon a time with a 280 Remington and 140 Ballistic tip. This was witnessed by another member here actually. Anyway, the shot broke his shoulder. We could tell that Immediately. Upon arrival there was blood everywhere and after a mile and a half tracking him in the snow I finally caught up to him and finished the job. I hit the shoulder all right, but just below the knuckle. And there is nothing vital behind it. So unless you recover the animal you can't know what happened.
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Old 07-22-2017, 06:21 PM
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Look, if you hunt enough you will encounter situations where bullets do weird things. I have killed enough stuff with that shot and Barnes bullets to know that it works. I also shot a whitetail buck once upon a time with a 280 Remington and 140 Ballistic tip. This was witnessed by another member here actually. Anyway, the shot broke his shoulder. We could tell that Immediately. Upon arrival there was blood everywhere and after a mile and a half tracking him in the snow I finally caught up to him and finished the job. I hit the shoulder all right, but just below the knuckle. And there is nothing vital behind it. So unless you recover the animal you can't know what happened.
A low shot in the high leg could result in the same reaction.
It would be hard to tell unless I was there looking through a spotting scope.
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Old 07-22-2017, 06:21 PM
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My grandfather told me a long time ago if you hunt long enough you will lose an animal that you have shot . He also stated it's not a nice feeling . He made sure I understood I had to try to ethically dispatch any quarry and be a hunter not a shooter . Those lessons I learned at 12 .

I have lost 2 animals since 1974 a black bear and a whitetail buck and yes it was not a good feeling .I spent many hours trying to recover both . Both would have been poor shot placement .Would a different bullet make any difference , who knows , it doesn't matter . I made poor shots . My fault not gun ,scope , caliber, bullet . I have to own it .

Enjoy our hunting sports and as gramps said respect your quarry and it is a big responsibility to take the life of an animal
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