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  #91  
Old 11-17-2010, 07:40 PM
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Originally Posted by sheepguide View Post
I say .270wsm also. I dont know alot on the ballistics and fancy numbers so ill leave that to the guys that do. But I have shot alot at my gongs and with the same bullets out of my .270wsm and the wifes .270win and I do know which is hitting way harder, alot louder hit and leaving alot deeper mark and it sure isnt the .270win. May not be scientific but works for me.
As far as purchasing bullets... any hunting store ive been in has had some. And if thats your biggest concern all you have to do is maybe be prepaired and buy bullets before you leave. Kinda sounds like the .270win guys need to run get bullets lots, maybe you need to not miss so often and you wouldnt run out of bullets and need to get more.
And the recoil isnt much higher than that of the .270win at least with my X-Bolt.

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  #92  
Old 11-17-2010, 07:42 PM
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Originally Posted by LongDraw View Post
Pick your flavor- If you are shooting a cartridge that is pushing a 130-180 grain bullet 2800-3200 fps and shooting inside of 500 yards cartridge selection is a moot point.
As such, I choose cartridges that burn less powder, create less muzzle blast, and recoil less. That's the easiest decision of the week.
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  #93  
Old 11-17-2010, 07:45 PM
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Originally Posted by chuck View Post
Did I say "significantly seperate the 7 and 270 WSM's"?

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Saying the 7mm makes the 270 dead as a dinosaur kind of indicates a significant seperation to me.

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I will say though that the 4" difference that 200 fps makes at 500 yds isn't "significant" either. I mean lets be honest with ourselves here. Can you hit an 8" pie plate at 500 yds with your 270 WSM that I can't with my 270 Winchester?
That was the point I was making...you were the one spouting the vast superiority of the 7mm but I think I could meet your above criteria with the 7 or 270. Despite you wishing it were so Chuck...you can't have it both ways.
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  #94  
Old 11-17-2010, 07:55 PM
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Originally Posted by sheephunter View Post
Saying the 7mm makes the 270 dead as a dinosaur kind of indicates a significant seperation to me.



That was the point I was making...you were the one spouting the vast superiority of the 7mm but I think I could meet your above criteria with the 7 or 270. Despite you wishing it were so Chuck...you can't have it both ways.
Dude, you have a great knack for picking and choosing context and use "vast superiority" quite loosely. The proof, as they say is in the pudding, and I don't have a WSM in the stable 284 or 277. Though I could be talked into the 7MM Remington Magnum.
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  #95  
Old 11-17-2010, 08:01 PM
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Originally Posted by chuck View Post
Dude, you have a great knack for picking and choosing context and use "vast superiority" quite loosely. The proof, as they say is in the pudding, and I don't have a WSM in the stable 284 or 277. Though I could be talked into the 7MM Remington Magnum.
Dude, the thing is, I've never said that the .270WSM was superior to anything under normal hunting conditions....I know you have a hard time with someone owning something and not feeling its superior to all others. I wanted a 130-140 grain shooter and I wanted a newer cartridge. The 270 WSM fit the bill. I have no illusions of its super powers. It shoots straight and kills stuff......just like the 270 Win does. I'm okay owning average, I just don't need to constantly juistify it...I wanted one is all the justification I need to own this dinosaur.
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  #96  
Old 11-17-2010, 08:19 PM
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Originally Posted by sheephunter View Post
Dude, the thing is, I've never said that the .270WSM was superior to anything under normal hunting conditions....I know you have a hard time with someone owning something and not feeling its superior to all others. I wanted a 130-140 grain shooter and I wanted a newer cartridge. The 270 WSM fit the bill. I have no illusions of its super powers. It shoots straight and kills stuff......just like the 270 Win does. I'm okay owning average, I just don't need to constantly juistify it...I wanted one is all the justification I need to own this dinosaur.
Well I'm glad we got that cleared up. Besides the 280 Remington is better than them all. Or was it he 280 AI?
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  #97  
Old 11-17-2010, 08:20 PM
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Originally Posted by LongDraw View Post
Pick your flavor- If you are shooting a cartridge that is pushing a 130-180 grain bullet 2800-3200 fps and shooting inside of 500 yards cartridge selection is a moot point. Picking a proper bullet and cartridge with manageable recoil should be at the top of the list.

Once you are shooting past 500 yards and out to 1k is where bullet BC is paramount. Wind drift is the biggest reason you want to shoot a high BC bullet at extreme ranges hence the poularity of cartridges pushing .264 and .284 high BC bullets.
So you'd think but increased speed reduces time of flight. Reduced time of flight equals less wind drift and drop. If you compare a 140 grain 270 with a .531 BC going 3200fps to a 180 grain 7mm with a .659 BC going 2750, Time of flight favours the 270 all the way to 1,000 yards. Despite the inferior BC, speed trumps BC at least to 1,000 yards. There is actually less drop with the 270. Granted the heavier bullet in the 7mm would resist wind drift slightly better but if my quick calculation is correct, the 7mm is only 6" less drift at 1000 yards. At 500 yards there's less than an inch difference...in a 10mph wind. No doubt that BC eventually trumps speed but it's not always within a practical range. Granted you could bump the velocity of the 7mm a bit but even then, the 270 is still the 1,000 yard winner for drop (over 70" better if my quick calculation is correct)and very close for wind drift.

But then again Chuck says the 7mm makes the 270 dead as a dinosaur so I could be wrong...

Last edited by sheephunter; 11-17-2010 at 08:35 PM.
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  #98  
Old 11-17-2010, 08:27 PM
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Good thing Alberta big game aren't made of steel.
Nope your right but it shows me that its hitting harder with the exact same grain of bullet so to me that is out performing.
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  #99  
Old 11-17-2010, 08:44 PM
LongDraw LongDraw is offline
 
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Originally Posted by sheephunter View Post
So you'd think but increased speed reduces time of flight. Reduced time of flight equals less wind drift and drop. If you compare a 140 grain 270 with a .531 BC going 3200fps to a 180 grain 7mm with a .659 BC going 2750, Time of flight favours the 270 all the way to 1,000 yards. Despite the inferior BC, speed trumps BC at least to 1,000 yards. There is actually less drop with the 270. Granted the heavier bullet in the 7mm would resist wind drift slightly better but if my quick calculation is correct, the 7mm is only 6" less drift at 1000 yards. At 500 yards there's less than an inch difference...in a 10mph wind. No doubt that BC eventually trumps speed but it's not always within a practical range. Granted you could bump the velocity of the 7mm a bit but even then, the 270 is still the 1,000 yard winner for drop (over 70" better if my quick calculation is correct)and very close for wind drift.
I am pushing the 180 Berger to 2950 fps out of a 7mmRM- 27``tube. Even at the velocity you cite above the 7mm has less wind drift at 1000 yards. At 1000 yards it is all about bucking the wind, the distance is constant. There is a reason F class shooters shoot high BC .264 and .284 bullets. Not aware of any 1000 yard shooter with a .277 bore.

Hey I like the 270 WSM and if I was not a reloader I would own one. I own 3 different .284 bores, no reason to buy a bunch more bullets.
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  #100  
Old 11-17-2010, 08:48 PM
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Originally Posted by 7MM Mike View Post
Chuck,
The only reason I could see anyone choosing the .270WSM over the 7mm version is factory ammo selection - as SC doesnt handload I would imagine this was the logic (although dont want to speak for SC). Mike
thanks Mike, you can speak for me anytime lol, i had that in my answer too, maybe he'll listen to you?

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  #101  
Old 11-17-2010, 08:53 PM
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Originally Posted by sheephunter View Post
I wanted a 130-140 grain shooter and I wanted a newer cartridge. The 270 WSM fit the bill.
It's too bad that the 260 Remington didn't come to mind. Then you'd have had something.
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  #102  
Old 11-17-2010, 08:58 PM
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Or just build a 6.5 WSM and realy have something.
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  #103  
Old 11-17-2010, 08:59 PM
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Originally Posted by LongDraw View Post
I am pushing the 180 Berger to 2950 fps out of a 7mmRM- 27``tube. Even at the velocity you cite above the 7mm has less wind drift at 1000 yards. At 1000 yards it is all about bucking the wind, the distance is constant. There is a reason F class shooters shoot high BC .264 and .284 bullets. Not aware of any 1000 yard shooter with a .277 bore.

Hey I like the 270 WSM and if I was not a reloader I would own one. I own 3 different .284 bores, no reason to buy a bunch more bullets.
Distance might be constant but time of flight isn't. The less time it takes to get there, the less time it's affected by the forces of nature. No doubt the heavier bullet moves less in the wind but as its exposed to the wind longer, the effects of the wind have more time to act on it. For an F class shooter 6" is significant and it makes sense but in hunting not so much.

There is a belief that BC is everything and eventually it is. I was just pointing out that it takes BC a long time to overcome speed. Even with your 7mm at 2950, the 270 still has less drop at 1,000 yards although the advantage in wind drift shifts to 10". At 600 yards it's about 2" difference. While the 180 grain 7mm does offer up some slight advantages, they aren't as significant as some think and in many cases they don't exist within practical hunting ranges.
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  #104  
Old 11-17-2010, 09:04 PM
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getting a bit off track but i was going to have buddy rig up a 150 berger (.531 bc) load for my sako at the start and the initial slow load had great promise right off the bat, i however got .7" 5 shot groups with 140 accubonds at 3160 fps and was happy to not have to get into reloading to get where i wanted....but if i guy could push that berger at say 3100 fps even...i'm sure it would compare well at the 1000 yrd line to a 7rm pushing 168's a bit slower

but if you reload why wouldn't you reload the highest bc bullets to play that far.....now....if berger etc. would bring out a 158 to 162 grainer for the .277 bore....watch, some top shooter would be bored and build a .270 shorty and wins some shizzo and it would be the latest rage in the circut....as so many seem to get bored easily lol, nice to have new reasons to build new guns

having said all that, since they don't make a 160 gr berger in .277 etc. i can duplicate the 150 berger with the .243 105 berger at .532 bc and likely see the same 3100 fps out of regular .243....and guys have won stuff with the .243....don't even need to AI it to get that kind of performance....and lapua brass available to boot....that would be efficient and easy on the shoulder etc. and more than enough pop for deer/sheep on down and probably still do fine on the bigger stuff inside 300 yrds....when i'm ready to reload, i'll be building a .243 ultralight, 23" 1 in 8 barrel etc.

until then...the .270 wsm is the shizzo
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  #105  
Old 11-17-2010, 09:04 PM
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Originally Posted by sheephunter View Post
Distance might be constant but time of flight isn't. The less time it takes to get there, the less time it's affected by the forces of nature. No doubt the heavier bullet moves less in the wind but as its exposed to the wind longer, the effects of the wind have more time to act on it. For an F class shooter 6" is significant and it makes sense but in hunting not so much.

There is a belief that BC is everything and eventually it is. I was just pointing out that it takes BC a long time to overcome speed. Even with your 7mm at 2950, the 270 still has less drop at 1,000 yards although the advantage in wind drift shifts to 10". At 600 yards it's about 2" difference. While the 180 grain 7mm does offer up some slight advantages, they aren't as significant as some think and in many cases they don't exist within practical hunting ranges.
If it was just about practical hunting ranges and things not as significant as some think we would all be shooting the .270win
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  #106  
Old 11-17-2010, 09:16 PM
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It's too bad that the 260 Remington didn't come to mind. Then you'd have had something.
It did to my mind, I built a 260 AI.
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  #107  
Old 11-17-2010, 09:20 PM
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the 260 ai came to my mind also, if only to have one to do everything i want....then that is the one i'd have too

since i will still have the .270 wsm when i eventually build my .243.....i'll have my more elk oriented gun and my super light sheep/deer oriented one....the 260 ai come too close to the wsm for me to justify....i want a bigger gap in powder/recoil lol

top choice for a reloader imo....super efficient!
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  #108  
Old 11-17-2010, 09:33 PM
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Originally Posted by LongDraw View Post
If it was just about practical hunting ranges and things not as significant as some think we would all be shooting the .270win

Ahhh. Reality sinks in and we get to put up with burning less powder, less muzzle blast, and less recoil. All while killing handily to a very long ways. Did I mention that it's an easy decision?
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  #109  
Old 11-17-2010, 09:45 PM
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both calibers are very good. the most important part is to get a rifle that fits you like a glove !
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  #110  
Old 11-17-2010, 10:01 PM
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Originally Posted by chuck View Post
It's too bad that the 260 Remington didn't come to mind. Then you'd have had something.
Didn't know you were such a fan of 209's new gun......see you guys have more in common than you thought. I thought about it but was worried the 7mm might make it dead as a dinosaur...
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  #111  
Old 11-17-2010, 10:12 PM
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Originally Posted by LongDraw View Post
If it was just about practical hunting ranges and things not as significant as some think we would all be shooting the .270win
Naw, I'd still be shooting the WSM You are right that the 270 doesn't see much use in F class shooting but if someone were to develop a 160 grain high BC bullet I'm sure a few guys shooting the 6.5s would have to take a hard look. After all, chucking a 270 bullet at these velocities is a realitively new phenom...Weatherby excluded of course.

The 7mm gets so much press regarding high BC bullets and their magical powers but the truth is, a little speed goes a long ways, especially inside 1,000 yards....on a calm day of course
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  #112  
Old 11-18-2010, 07:04 AM
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Originally Posted by sheephunter View Post
truth is, a little speed goes a long ways, especially inside 1,000 yards....on a calm day of course
i saw my .270 wsm go 920 yrds on a calm day, saw my regular .270 go 700 and hit bang on a calm day also, i miscalculated elevation variance by two clicks on the 920 but still landed within a peckers distance of the nubbin i was aiming at , but a calm day you don't even need much speed, i still read about lots of guys winning stuff in the gun mags with slow 30 cals, i think last one was a guy throwing 210's out of a 300 wsm winning a big one down south somewhere beating all the 7's etc. no doubt a guy could do it with .277 bore if they made a bit higher bc bullets, as someone mentioned this whole subject is splitting hairs at the end of the day

i think it has a lot more to do with the nut behind the wheel than running the highest bc you can find....surely want to be in the top heap of the bc pool but it comes down to who has a better day reading the wind mostly as all those rigs likely similar precision capability (1/4 moa-ish)
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  #113  
Old 11-18-2010, 07:46 AM
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i'd go 270, for the good reason ammo are just as good as wsm and that you can find them anywhere you go hunting, these wsm business is just a fashion to seel more rifles and if you are a hunter unless you hunt prairies where you could shoot 300 yards and more than i don't see the reason to go magnum no matter. The old 06 and 270 and 280 are doing all you need.
this is my point of vue
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  #114  
Old 11-18-2010, 11:52 AM
lclund1946 lclund1946 is offline
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Originally Posted by sheephunter View Post
So you'd think but increased speed reduces time of flight. Reduced time of flight equals less wind drift and drop. If you compare a 140 grain 270 with a .531 BC going 3200fps to a 180 grain 7mm with a .659 BC going 2750, Time of flight favours the 270 all the way to 1,000 yards. Despite the inferior BC, speed trumps BC at least to 1,000 yards. There is actually less drop with the 270. Granted the heavier bullet in the 7mm would resist wind drift slightly better but if my quick calculation is correct, the 7mm is only 6" less drift at 1000 yards. At 500 yards there's less than an inch difference...in a 10mph wind. No doubt that BC eventually trumps speed but it's not always within a practical range. Granted you could bump the velocity of the 7mm a bit but even then, the 270 is still the 1,000 yard winner for drop (over 70" better if my quick calculation is correct)and very close for wind drift.

But then again Chuck says the 7mm makes the 270 dead as a dinosaur so I could be wrong...
As I posted before I chose a 270WSM, loaded down, for my 89 year old uncle who shot many moose with his old 270 Win. I didn't choose it because it was so much better than the 270, but because I could load 140 bullets to 270 Win Max Velocities, in a 22' barrel, without stretching the brass. Added benefits were a much shorter, lighter rifle than his old 24" Husky and it came with a clip.

As usual these discussions get derailed in a hurry and seem to turn into a ****ing contest between a few people. The result is a lot of misinformation by people trying to prove that my whiz-bang is better than your whiz-bang and any factual information is ignored.

While the 270 WSM is a fine cartridge with 140 grain bullets it is no better than the the 7mmSAUM which is much more efficient. I can find no 140 grain .277 bullet with any where near .531 BC. The .277, 140 Berger Hunting bullet has a .487 BC and the .284, 140 hunting bullet has a BC of .510. These two bullets can both be pushed to the same velocities in in similar rifles chambered 270WSM and 7mmSAUM. The BC gives the 7mmSAUM the edge and it even edges out the 270WSM with the 150 Berger, BC .531, pushed to 3100fps.

The 7mmSAUM does this with considerably less powder which equates to less recoil, less muzzle blast, and more loads per can of powder. The real advantage to the 7mmSAUM is that you do have the option of using heavier bullets and the 168 Berger , BC.617, at an easy 2950fps does about 12" better in a 10 MPH cross wind at 1000 yards and retains about 250 ft. lbs more energy.

There are a number of other .284 bullets that equal or better the 140/150 bullets in the 270WSM when pushed in a SAUM: Speer 145 SPBT @ 3150, 150 Nosler AB @ 3160, 150 Swift Sirrocco @ 3180, 160 Nosler AB @3000, 162 Horn BTSP @3011, 175 bullets @ 2800-2850.

When it comes to 6.5, 140 VLD's, with .613 BC, my 6.5 EXTREME at 3000 (60.0 grains Retumbo) - 3100 (61.4 grains Retumbo) beats both the 270WSM and the 7mmSAUM hands down, especially for punching paper or shooting deer to 800 -1000 yds. I have pushed the 140 VLD to 3260fps but it is hard on brass. It shoots under 1/2MOA and dinged the 960 yard gong every time so far. Even managed to hit a 3 1/2X 3 1/2 gong at 960 yards.

While any of the factory cartridges will do the trick, to 300 -500, yards my pick would be the 7mmSAUM if I had only one to choose. I have been doing this for long enough to see the inherent design flaws in all factory cartridges and rifles. I have two very successful EXTREME wildcat cartridges and will not opt for anything other than these in a custom rifle. But then that's just me and I realize that not everyone is as anal as I have become. Fortunately there are enough others like me to keep things interesting.
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  #115  
Old 11-18-2010, 05:40 PM
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Again ...wsm's are here to stay ..WHY?? cause it has more intelect and marketing options out there than a 30-06 or 270 win ..Lets's face it ...If YOU were 18 and gettin into huntin ..what would you buy ?? A 30-06, 270win ..come ON ..lol.. short action ,light ..short ..or a 1906 caliber...lol
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  #116  
Old 11-18-2010, 06:37 PM
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Again ...wsm's are here to stay ..WHY?? cause it has more intelect and marketing options out there than a 30-06 or 270 win ..Lets's face it ...If YOU were 18 and gettin into huntin ..what would you buy ?? A 30-06, 270win ..come ON ..lol.. short action ,light ..short ..or a 1906 caliber...lol
Sigh. I guess gone are the days of our youth articulating a complete sentence in print and hunting with cartridges like the 270 and 30-06. Speaking of laughing out loud.
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  #117  
Old 11-18-2010, 10:13 PM
Stinky Coyote Stinky Coyote is offline
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hey old school, what are you even doing on the internet anyhow? shouldn't you be off in the bush with your model 70 in 30-06 pretending its last days on earth or some shizzo like that? some laughing i do outloud too....i still can't believe a modern internet cruiser like you doesn't have a wsm yet, so forward and yet so backwards all at the same time
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  #118  
Old 11-18-2010, 10:58 PM
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hey old school, what are you even doing on the internet anyhow? shouldn't you be off in the bush with your model 70 in 30-06 pretending its last days on earth or some shizzo like that? some laughing i do outloud too....i still can't believe a modern internet cruiser like you doesn't have a wsm yet, so forward and yet so backwards all at the same time
Good grief. Oh, and I can almost guarantee I have more "modern" in my hunting firearm than what you have in yours.
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  #119  
Old 11-19-2010, 06:53 AM
ishootbambi ishootbambi is offline
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hey TJ.....you remember how predictable i am on an issue or two? i pointed out a predictable response for you the other day, but i think the hands down winner for a guaranteed response has to be chuck on this one. any short mag sucks, leupold is garbage, and model 70s are the only good gun ever built. lolololol.

and dont get all bent outta shape chuck. it isnt meant as a sleight or a cheap shot. just an observation.
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  #120  
Old 11-19-2010, 07:06 AM
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I'm pretty sure Chuck likes Leupold, for sure he likes their mounts and rings.
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