Suffield Bull Elk

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Originally Posted by RDW

i think that it will be cool to say you shot a bull on the base because there is no doubt that when the elk problem is under control the base will be off limits again.

While I'm certainly not opposed to guys with higher priority getting first chance at this potential new hunting opportunity, if there is any chance that this hunt is temporary, then I believe it should be a true lottery.

Yes, I have low priority, but I'm willing to wait if this hunt will still be around in 5 years. If it will be shut down if the population is controlled, not much fairness in that as far as I'm concerned.

I'm sure many of us will be watching this with interest. Im also sure that what ever is presented in the new regs will not make everyone happy! Someone will think they've been shafted.

[Leafy]

Originally Posted by North of Owlseye

Haven't looked back at your previous posts but one would assume you are a wild horse (nag) advocate. On that assumption it makes it difficult to counter many of your assertions as you are arguing from a fixed point.
What mule deer cull? Are you referring to the cull of all deer along the Sask border? It continues today in the form of testing and tags, just not from baiting and helicopters. Who is 'our group'? Are you referring to AO or are you part of an organized nag support group?
Believe what you want regarding the origin of the mongrel horses on the base. If you have an iron in the fire it may be to your financial interest to promote them as "Mustangs" that can be traced back to the Spanish. The accepted theory among the local ranchers leans more toward 'feral'.
Military personnel tags - well I sure don't call it "paid hunting". Are they some rich foreigners paying for access to land that the local can't afford to get onto - that is closer to what most would call paid hunting. If they want to throw our good soldiers a bone with a few tags a season good for them. Its a token to their service to the country and hardly a financial thing. Remember this is a plan to reduce numbers.
You are 100% right on the Gbear thing. Those numbers are interesting to say the least. But what it the motivation for suppressing accurate numbers on Suffield? To cover up the idea of mismanagement? If they say there are 7000 and there are actually 8000 does it make a difference? Why wouldn't the 22% increase be accurate? Surely there is some science behind it and if it doesn't line up with studies in Utah maybe the controls or methods are different. You are not doing much to convince me of a conspiracy of Kennedy-esque proportions. The survey was "stopped" was it? Remember extraordinary claims require extraordinary proof. I would very much like some verifying information on that claim.
Melting Pot is usually a phrase to describe the mixing of cultures that are expected to assimilate into the dominant one. Your use of it here is mystifying. Your explanation of the misnomer I can see some valid points in. I can certainly imagine CWD being found in that herd. Danger to the hunters - well I suppose. I am doubtful the landowners in the area are even a little concerned as to who is shooting them so long as a reduction is achieved.
I disagree that nothing good has come from the herd's reintroduction. Putting a native animal back on the land it once inhabited and taking out a non-native can never be a bad thing. Certainly the management could have been different to prevent the population exploding like it has. I am not sure anyone anticipated how successful or fruitful they would be and reigning in a problem is always tougher than preventing one. But that only applies if you can anticipate the problem.
Well on the last question you've got me there. I can not think of a species that costs 'thousands per animal' and am massively doubtful these Suffield elk cost anywhere near that much. The Wainwright staff has been organizing and supervising hunts on their base for decades but I hardly think it is outrageously expensive. Another extraordinary claim that many in 'our group' (I guess in this case we are talking about the hunting community) would like you to substantiate with some numbers or proof or even a good estimate.

Respectfully I feel you really are not as familiar with this area and have formulated your opinion as well Back to the nags, so after 80 - 90 years, one would assume animals are wild right ? Forget your personal opinion and use some common sense here North. Prior to 97/98 what were the costs at CFB with only these horses, minimal at best right. The basis used to remove these horses was on the premise that the more than 1100 species in CFB were being placed at risk, so elk were introduced. Where are we now ? Did someone forget about the original goal here ?

Military receiving an allotment of 10% of tags, well the adjacent land owners should be first in line as they are the ones on the hook for damages, horse did nothing to the surrounding private lands.

Funny you agree on the G bear numbers being manipulated, but feel ESRD is spot on with these elk..

You refer to management often in your comments, well sir if you feel this is management your mistaken. Fiasco and worst documented case of missmanagement anyone has seen in Alberta regarding big game. Asinine to think that no one could see that a species with no predators to control numbers would NOT get out of hand. By the way, there was a plan in place and to think there wasn't is silly.

Landowner, you are sorrily mistaken man... Please PM me you name and I will keep it on file so if your drawn I can deny you access. Most here are at their ropes end, yes kill them all but really man the phone calls at all hours of the day are not cool... Worse than telephone solicitors, and we all love them right ?

Costs, do the math my friend. What were the costs associated with the horses vs. today ? 365 days a year now the fences are driven and repaired, CWD testing mandatory inside the base only, staff for this cull, fuel, trucks, building for briefing, F & W officers, biologists, range control, and the list goes on and on. Really can't compare Wainwright to CFB either.

Have you thought about the social problems these elk have caused ? Look at this thread and how our group argues about priority vs lottery of future draws. Or the substance hunters tipping over bulls already. Or the land owners such as myself and the mess I have to deal with.

Ya North these elk really make my thing ping and god bless the idiots for messing this up so guys like you may have a freaking opportunity to kill a pest in the prairie !!

[KBF]

Originally Posted by qmurphy

I dunno, I bet the majority of the hunters in the province only spend roughly a week trying to fill a tag they were drawn for. Unless someone is fortunate enough to live on the Suffield doorstep, from a "days spent hunting" perspective, it likely makes no difference if I cash in my P13 on or off the base. Either way I'll only get a week...

The advantage of being on the base is that I don't have to try and line up permission and learn the lay of the land.

To me learning the lay of the land is 90% of the experience and challenge.

[Flatlandliver]

Originally Posted by Leafy

Respectfully I feel you really are not as familiar with this area and have formulated your opinion as well Back to the nags, so after 80 - 90 years, one would assume animals are wild right ? Forget your personal opinion and use some common sense here North. Prior to 97/98 what were the costs at CFB with only these horses, minimal at best right. The basis used to remove these horses was on the premise that the more than 1100 species in CFB were being placed at risk, so elk were introduced. Where are we now ? Did someone forget about the original goal here ?

Military receiving an allotment of 10% of tags, well the adjacent land owners should be first in line as they are the ones on the hook for damages, horse did nothing to the surrounding private lands.

Funny you agree on the G bear numbers being manipulated, but feel ESRD is spot on with these elk..

You refer to management often in your comments, well sir if you feel this is management your mistaken. Fiasco and worst documented case of missmanagement anyone has seen in Alberta regarding big game. Asinine to think that no one could see that a species with no predators to control numbers would NOT get out of hand. By the way, there was a plan in place and to think there wasn't is silly.

Landowner, you are sorrily mistaken man... Please PM me you name and I will keep it on file so if your drawn I can deny you access. Most here are at their ropes end, yes kill them all but really man the phone calls at all hours of the day are not cool... Worse than telephone solicitors, and we all love them right ?

Costs, do the math my friend. What were the costs associated with the horses vs. today ? 365 days a year now the fences are driven and repaired, CWD testing mandatory inside the base only, staff for this cull, fuel, trucks, building for briefing, F & W officers, biologists, range control, and the list goes on and on. Really can't compare Wainwright to CFB either.

Have you thought about the social problems these elk have caused ? Look at this thread and how our group argues about priority vs lottery of future draws. Or the substance hunters tipping over bulls already. Or the land owners such as myself and the mess I have to deal with.

Ya North these elk really make my thing ping and god bless the idiots for messing this up so guys like you may have a freaking opportunity to kill a pest in the prairie !!

Another day, another rant.
Stop bitching and provide your solutions please.
We all agree it is costing money, we all agree it is playing catchup and was mismanaged. What would you do different?
The access phone calls I am sure are a problem for you guys, how about some kind of online registry for the ranches so the number of hunters is controlled and your phone doesnt ring 24/7? Maybe f&w could help with that. I think they keep a landowner list for 212 elk.
How much compensation do you get for crop/fence damage done by elk?
Do you have to buy extra insurance for that or does srd cover it?
I just would like to know what you would do different to handle this, now not in the past.
Constructive bitching is welcome, bitching for bitchings sake gets old fast.

[shedcrazy]

Costs, do the math my friend. What were the costs associated with the horses vs. today ? 365 days a year now the fences are driven and repaired, CWD testing mandatory inside the base only, staff for this cull, fuel, trucks, building for briefing, F & W officers, biologists, range control, and the list goes on and on. Really can't compare Wainwright to CFB either.

Ok…So you got millions out of that list? There is no new staff, no new buildings, no new equipment. RC work 24/7 no matter what…staff priorities change no matter if it is hunting, EXs, OG, etc. CWD testing, maybe some OT, fuel, etc are part of doing business. The list might go on but it isn't even close to your numbers.

Sure you can compare the two…overhead is very similar in running a check station.

[Full Curl Earl]

Leafy may be right you know, if we get rid of fences, and ranching, this all goes away! Calling elk Rats of the Prairies sure shows your colors.

[packhuntr]

As far as im concerned they can kill every last one of them and I say get them outa here. We have natives showing up killing more than out elk down here, truckloads of antelope are being removed, deer etc. Not opinion, FACT! And thanks to SRD complacency and uselessness nothing has currently become of these abuses!!!!!! We have all residents province wide pulling down here for these elk hunts, and they have witnessed the free for all with SRD's tag handouts for EVERY species we have besides moose. The south eastern portion of the province is being over run with residents from all over Ab on return trips after their elk draw escapades,, in persuit of general archery elk and all other game here,, again on general tags. This portion of the province is now seen as simply the biggest free for all that has ever existed in the history of the province. I say KILL ALL ELK, get em the hell outa here and everyones lives down here can return to some sort of normality, whereby we can begin working to repair land issues and re establish our decimated landowner relations. Helicopter kill them, do what ever. Make them go away. And to anyone contemplating a sermon about ignorance or greed or any other bs ridiculous retort to this,,, leave your ignorance out of it, these elk have created some very real issues, including some that simply were not forecasted by ANYONE,,, and to pretend they don't exist is blindness of the highest regard.

[catnthehat]

Originally Posted by packhuntr

As far as im concerned they can kill every last one of them and I say get them outa here. We have natives showing up killing more than out elk down here, truckloads of antelope are being removed, deer etc. Not opinion, FACT! And thanks to SRD complacency and uselessness nothing has currently become of these abuses!!!!!! We have all residents province wide pulling down here for these elk hunts, and they have witnessed the free for all with SRD's tag handouts for EVERY species we have besides moose. The south eastern portion of the province is being over run with residents from all over Ab on return trips after their elk draw escapades,, in persuit of general archery elk and all other game here,, again on general tags. This portion of the province is now seen as simply the biggest free for all that has ever existed in the history of the province. I say KILL ALL ELK, get em the hell outa here and everyones lives down here can return to some sort of normality, whereby we can begin working to repair land issues and re establish our decimated landowner relations. Helicopter kill them, do what ever. Make them go away. And to anyone contemplating a sermon about ignorance or greed or any other bs ridiculous retort to this,,, leave your ignorance out of it, these elk have created some very real issues, including some that simply were not forecasted by ANYONE,,, and to pretend they don't exist is blindness of the highest regard.

I'm a bit confused by your post Pachuntr- are you saying that because I am a northern Alberta resident I should not be able to put in for draws down south??
The Peace/ Grand Prairie area has late season elk draws as well, often with unsubscribed tags, and there are southern residents that come up there to hunt, but we don't hear about near so many issues up there.
Cat

[packhuntr]

Originally Posted by catnthehat

I'm a bit confused by your post Pachuntr- are you saying that because I am a northern Alberta resident I should not be able to put in for draws down south??
The Peace/ Grand Prairie area has late season elk draws as well, often with unsubscribed tags, and there are southern residents that come up there to hunt, but we don't hear about near so many issues up there.
Cat

Really Cat? Don't prove a lack of comprehension man. The issue isn't with draws. Just think about this. a bit of insight as to whats going on has been brought forward. Its not all roses here... Just think about it....

[catnthehat]

Originally Posted by packhuntr

Really Cat? Don't prove a lack of comprehension man. The issue isn't with draws. You need to think before the speak part.

What exactly is it about if it isn't about the draws??
I looked at your pose several times and can't decipher it,
unless you are referring to all the crap that goes on besides the hunting of the elk themselves....
Cat

[packhuntr]

Originally Posted by catnthehat

What exactly is it about if it isn't about the draws??
I looked at your pose several times and can't decipher it,
unless you are referring to all the crap that goes on besides the hunting of the elk themselves....
Cat

Have your morning coffee man

[hal53]

Originally Posted by packhuntr

Have your morning coffee man

as usual, you are carrying on with a rant, that no one can understand

[packhuntr]

Originally Posted by hal53

as usual, you are carrying on with a rant, that no one can understand

Is it already insult time lolol. Hal at least your consistent. When you come up short, you really don't have a sniff hey

[hal53]

Originally Posted by packhuntr

Is it already insult time lolol. Hal at least your consistent. When you come up short, you really don't have a sniff hey

Insults????..just asked for clarification about your rambling post??????

[Jamie]

Honestly Pac, what are you trying to say?

Jamie

[Dacotensis]

Derail in progress.

What was the question?

Srd should hand out Ritalin for some of you adhd types



Everyone wants to see a record finally fall.
It would be something to see it happen in Alberta.

[Dacotensis]

Originally Posted by Jamie

Honestly Pac, what are you trying to say?

Jamie

What he's trying to say is
"These are my trophy elk and I want to be the one to kill the next World Record, please pizz off and leave my part of the province alone".

Or something like that....
Lol

[packhuntr]

Originally Posted by Jamie

Honestly Pac, what are you trying to say?

Jamie

Read post # 97. Instant clarity.

[Lr1000]

I can see what pac is trying to say. The elk have drawn a lot of attention to that area for hunting. It's taken a tole on all the other species also. I know my neighbor had a tag in the area for 3 mule doe tags and he could not fill them... The elk have also drawn attention from other provinces natives that are going home with more then just elk.

On the other hand. What's done is done. There is no turning back. The elk are there and there to stay. All I can see is if they open up the base and create a general tag outside the trophies will slowly die off and the attention will also. Thats not likely going to happen.

When you have a thousand elk in your hay, they seem like rats. No matter if your in wmu 152/212 or 304.

[packhuntr]

Originally Posted by Dacotensis

What he's trying to say is
"These are my trophy elk and I want to be the one to kill the next World Record, please pizz off and leave my part of the province alone".

Or something like that....
Lol

Lordy do we have some awful simple people calling themselves conservationists...

[Lefty-Canuck]

I read and understood what Pack is saying and it does make sense...name one hunt other than 438/437 sheep that garners more interest than Suffield elk....actually Suffield elk are likely a #1 topic....

LC

[Jamie]

Originally Posted by packhuntr

Read post # 97. Instant clarity.

Pack. I read it and I think what you are saying is this.

S.E. Alberta is getting to much attention and being loved to death. Kinda like the Peace river country when there was a Monster Muley hanging out on every 1/4 or the Drumheller Valley 15 years ago, Or the Yah ha Tinda 20 years ago.

It all changes and a new "Hot Spot" will come up.

Jamie

[packhuntr]

Originally Posted by Dacotensis

What he's trying to say is
"These are my trophy elk and I want to be the one to kill the next World Record, please pizz off and leave my part of the province alone".

Or something like that....
Lol

Dacotensis and all others talking crazy talk about world records lolol. You guys have any idea how special an animal is to pull off antler growth of the proportions you are imagining... Factor all the elk born and grown out to maturity across the continental US in the last 100 years just for starters okay. Now how many had the genetics to pull this feat of impossibility off? You guys are going to have a dead serious discussion about the ABSOLUTE REALITY that there is one of these bulls in a 10 000 head herd,, maybe 3500 bulls (an arbitrary number pulled out of my rear end) and sing the praise of this wreck of a situation based upon these DREAMS lolol. You guys are not even making sense...

[Deer Hunter]

Originally Posted by packhuntr

Helicopter kill them, do what ever. Make them go away.

Agreed, Would decaying elk make a good fertilizer for prairie? Maybe we'd see an increase in nutrition for other species...

Using Suffield as a govt sponsored antelope breeding ground project would be my vote. Aren't they more susceptible to wild population swings anyways? And they wont **** in a feed stack if they go off the base.

[Leafy]

Originally Posted by Flatlandliver

Another day, another rant.
Stop bitching and provide your solutions please.
We all agree it is costing money, we all agree it is playing catchup and was mismanaged. What would you do different?
The access phone calls I am sure are a problem for you guys, how about some kind of online registry for the ranches so the number of hunters is controlled and your phone doesnt ring 24/7? Maybe f&w could help with that. I think they keep a landowner list for 212 elk.
How much compensation do you get for crop/fence damage done by elk?
Do you have to buy extra insurance for that or does srd cover it?
I just would like to know what you would do different to handle this, now not in the past.
Constructive bitching is welcome, bitching for bitchings sake gets old fast.

FLD, my solution would be live training or eradication by any means necessary to remove these problem elk.

I receive zero compensation for the damages.

If you think that I am bitching, well you may wish to insert yourself into the opportunist category and remove all thoughts of conservation from your resume.

Originally Posted by shedcrazy

Ok…So you got millions out of that list? There is no new staff, no new buildings, no new equipment. RC work 24/7 no matter what…staff priorities change no matter if it is hunting, EXs, OG, etc. CWD testing, maybe some OT, fuel, etc are part of doing business. The list might go on but it isn't even close to your numbers.

Sure you can compare the two…overhead is very similar in running a check station.

Actually Shed, when the numbers are released as to costs associated with these elk, well you and others will be baffled. The hidden costs with multiple levels of government involvement is not cheap. I just indicated the visual costs as reference to my point.

Pack seems to get it, probably because he experiences this first hand and not from the comfort of his home elsewhere in our province.

Done people, all the best and happy hunting !

[catnthehat]

Originally Posted by Leafy

If you think that I am bitching, well you may wish to insert yourself into the opportunist category and remove all thoughts

Pack seems to get it, probably because he experiences this first hand and not from the comfort of his home elsewhere in our province.

Done people, all the best and happy hunting !

I sure hope you are done because your "holier than thou I live here so I know everything " is about as big an insult as I have ever seen
I don't know where you get your attitude from but it is not what I have found to be the norm from local people I have met down there.
This whole form is full of azz holes now and if that makes myself one of them I want nothing of it!!
Cat

[Deer Hunter]

Originally Posted by catnthehat

This whole form is full of azz holes now
Cat

Merry Christmas to you too

[residentguide]

Cat you are the number 1.



This thread has done its full turn. There is greed beyond special here. I really like how a few are specialists after being to the area once or not even at all. I agree with Pack on how this part of the province had been hammered and all species have suffered because of it. To bad for the farmers who deal with all hunters like a full time job from end of May till the end of January.

[casual observer]

I've been wading through pack's rants long enough that I've got this one. He feels too many hunters from all corners of Alberta have made the trip to an area too close to his home turf and are returning for more than elk. They are coming back for mule deer and his beloved antelope. Not only are they increasing draw wait times in his home area, they are pizzing off local landowners which threatens his access as well. He would like everyone to stay home and hunt their local stuff; just like he does. Well, except for that sheep; oh and somewhat regular trips North for whitetails; oh and though not recently but for bears too. He is also pretty upset with subsistence hunters coming from sometimes thousands of miles for those meats bulls they seem to love. I haven't figured out the rage over that one though. It's like the highway 3 rams in December; doesn't everyone know those are the very best eating?

As for Leafy, well I'm guessing he is including costs of fencing and feed in his assessments. Most don't consider those costs as they bear no responsibility for them. Cost to SRD and the military are not the only costs out there. I'd be steaming too if I owned land near this mess.

To the world record question; I sincerely doubt it. Those elk are maxxing out potential and have been for a while. Nothing has been even the slightest bit close to that level.

[KBF]

Originally Posted by packhuntr

Dacotensis and all others talking crazy talk about world records lolol. You guys have any idea how special an animal is to pull off antler growth of the proportions you are imagining... Factor all the elk born and grown out to maturity across the continental US in the last 100 years just for starters okay. Now how many had the genetics to pull this feat of impossibility off? You guys are going to have a dead serious discussion about the ABSOLUTE REALITY that there is one of these bulls in a 10 000 head herd,, maybe 3500 bulls (an arbitrary number pulled out of my rear end) and sing the praise of this wreck of a situation based upon these DREAMS lolol. You guys are not even making sense...

That's basically what my whole premise for the original question. I think he nailed it here. That puts it in perspective for me. Thanks pack.