crossbow season?

[whitetail Junkie]

Originally Posted by 209x50

I see the house of cards trembling and even other archery associations are disgusted with the actions of the ABA. Just read the letter to the editor in this month's AO on the sneak attempt by the ABA to get the Federation of Canadian Archers to state publicly that crossbows are not archery equipment. They were denied and the letter writer, the Bow hunting Director for the Ontario Archery Association states and I quote, "The ABA are a selfish lot who are afraid they might have to share some of their generous archery season..."
It is disgusting when the strongest argument the ABA has is that there will be more hunters in the field and that bow permits will have to go on draw.

Maybe you got an idea there,put all bow hunting on draw,I say that if you call yourself a bow hunter,then only hunt with a bow,thats it.

[LongDraw]

Originally Posted by 209x50

I see the house of cards trembling and even other archery associations are disgusted with the actions of the ABA. Just read the letter to the editor in this month's AO on the sneak attempt by the ABA to get the Federation of Canadian Archers to state publicly that crossbows are not archery equipment. They were denied and the letter writer, the Bow hunting Director for the Ontario Archery Association states and I quote, "The ABA are a selfish lot who are afraid they might have to share some of their generous archery season..."
It is disgusting when the strongest argument the ABA has is that there will be more hunters in the field and that bow permits will have to go on draw.

Curious why you find it "disgusting" that the ABA wants to protect the Provinces archery pre-season? The archery pre-season is something that ALL Albertans have the opportunity to enjoy and experience.

[209x50]

Originally Posted by LongDraw

Curious why you find it "disgusting" that the ABA wants to protect the Provinces archery pre-season? The archery pre-season is something that ALL Albertans have the opportunity to enjoy and experience.

Unless their bow of choice is horizontal.

[Stinky Coyote]

russ you crack me up, not everyone that can shoot goes to some form of competition, i may not do well with the totally different pressure of a totally different situation but when it comes to me and my target and then me and my quarry afield......oh yeah....its that good......so.....sorry you have trouble with that but such is life, doesn't change the facts...you won't see me at any range or competition which in all likelyhood should keep you and maybe some others happy? you can have your range trophies, i will stick to my type of trophy

[Stinky Coyote]

Originally Posted by 209x50

I see the house of cards trembling and even other archery associations are disgusted with the actions of the ABA. Just read the letter to the editor in this month's AO on the sneak attempt by the ABA to get the Federation of Canadian Archers to state publicly that crossbows are not archery equipment. They were denied and the letter writer, the Bow hunting Director for the Ontario Archery Association states and I quote, "The ABA are a selfish lot who are afraid they might have to share some of their generous archery season..."
It is disgusting when the strongest argument the ABA has is that there will be more hunters in the field and that bow permits will have to go on draw.

oh SNAP!

zingerrrrrrr

[conservationist]

"And then there are those who believe that there is a crossbow use provision available to anyone who can provide a medical doctor’s signature to the effect that they (and I quote) ‘suffer from any physical condition, affliction or handicap that is permanent in nature’ and, ‘upper limb paralysis or amputation which prevents them from utilizing conventional archery equipment’. This is in fact subject to a Fish and Wildlife officer’s final approval: no matter what any learned MD may have signed his name too!

Whilst much of the opposition to more liberal crossbow regulations appears to come from the younger set, many of the hunting and fishing fraternity are entering a time in their lives where certain physical activities become harder and harder to perform. Some are already at this stage and, perhaps because of age related problems, they are dropping out of the game. Medical doctors regularly prescribe new drugs to address such maladies and, regretfully, there can be significant side effects along with any life prolonging benefits. Prescription drugs are known to effectively control bad cholesterol, but limb joint and muscular pain as a result of their use can be debilitating enough to curtail the use of conventional archery equipment. It’s about time that Alberta regulators and some other stubborn stakeholders in this issue reflect a more enlightened approach.

And finally: There are many of us who have long paid our dues, so to speak. After a law abiding productive life of providing for families and paying taxes, some of us are a bit worn out: And for anybody or group to stand in the way of any legitimate attempts to let us stay in the game, close to home with tools we can still use, is something to be truly ashamed of. Science, not selfish sentiment, should rule; just as it did when bowhunting in Alberta was first accepted by those in charge at the time. "
Sharpedge

I'm fully with you on this one Sharedge - I can't draw and hold my compound anymore due to injuries, was denied a permit even with medical reccomendaton (whitch BTW is cash out of pocket as it's not covered by AHC) and I know 70+ avid outdoorsman who had a crossbow permit for a number of years who has been forced out of bowhuniting because his permit was not renewed (and yes, he did appeal). I'm totally disgusted the the ABA position on crossbows.

[LongDraw]

Originally Posted by conservationist

I'm fully with you on this one Sharedge - I can't draw and hold my compound anymore due to injuries, was denied a permit even with medical reccomendaton (whitch BTW is cash out of pocket as it's not covered by AHC) and I know 70+ avid outdoorsman who had a crossbow permit for a number of years who has been forced out of bowhuniting because his permit was not renewed (and yes, he did appeal). I'm totally disgusted the the ABA position on crossbows.

Why not "disgusted" with whoever in F&W is not granting a permit when it is deemed by a Doctor that you cannot draw and hold back a legal bow?

[Stinky Coyote]

Originally Posted by LongDraw

Why not "disgusted" with whoever in F&W is not granting a permit when it is deemed by a Doctor that you cannot draw and hold back a legal bow?

appears these guys have to jump through more than enough hoops to do all this........really? why? noisy rhetoric my butt....this is a logic dominated discussion and the crossbow is the clear winner by a long mile

[conservationist]

Originally Posted by LongDraw

Why not "disgusted" with whoever in F&W is not granting a permit when it is deemed by a Doctor that you cannot draw and hold back a legal bow?

Because I believe that if the ABA were supportive instead of constantly portraying crossbows as something akin to an instrument of the devil, and blocking increased access to this tool at every turn, we would not have this ridiculous situation. (see ABA web site "positon on cross bows") It's bad enough having the "antis" without those who call themselves "real bowhunters" blocking other hunters from archery hunting for purely selfish reasons. As it now stands, a limb "must be missing or permanently paralyzed" and "a permit will not be issued for age related conditions" (quoting my rejection letter")

So - as it now stands, injured folks, older folks, & a lot of women can't participate in archery season. Think of how many new members the ABA could have if they lobbied for, instead of against crossbows. It probably will happen someday when the current leaders find the old body just does't work the way it used to!

[elitexlr]

Being a total archery(hunting & competitive 3d) & believe everyone has the right to hunt our great abundance or lack of in some cases of wild game, i have the opinion that this crossbow "phenom" is ever growing short cut to wanna be or lazy hunters! I help with tech work & coach junior archers @ local shop am totally disturbed with the total disrespect of a growing number of fly-by night hunters that think they can just buy new bow or pawn shop relic set it up for them on that day only to hear they're going on a hunt tomorrow with a bud! been denide hunting permission from many landowners for years because of such foolishness after so called bowhunters have stuck arrows in god knows where on game. I can't blame the farmers! Talked with ABA members & discussed a proficency test,gun hunters alike. By the way crossbows are not accurate!!

[209x50]

Originally Posted by LongDraw

Why not "disgusted" with whoever in F&W is not granting a permit when it is deemed by a Doctor that you cannot draw and hold back a legal bow?

For me it is disgusting when one facet of the hunting community tries a sneaky run around to knife another facet in the back. The ABA should keep the greedy attitude up as they are the best spokemen the crossbow can have. It doesn't take anyone but a second to see that greed is their only motivation.

[LongDraw]

Originally Posted by 209x50

For me it is disgusting when one facet of the hunting community tries a sneaky run around to knife another facet in the back. The ABA should keep the greedy attitude up as they are the best spokemen the crossbow can have. It doesn't take anyone but a second to see that greed is their only motivation.

ABA greedy attitude? What about the greedy, self serving individuals that want to introduce a new weapon into the archery pre-season? The legal definition of a bow and arrow would have to be scrapped to appease the noisy banter of a few.

From what you describe in your previous posts your axe to grind is directly with SRD and their policy on what the medical requirement is for a crossbow permit. SRD policy not ABA policy.

As far as I know the ABA is not sponsored by any archery or bow manufacturers, just a grassroots organization that represents the mandate set by its members.

[Rob Miskosky]

Originally Posted by elitexlr

i have the opinion that this crossbow "phenom" is ever growing short cut to wanna be or lazy hunters! I help with tech work & coach junior archers @ local shop am totally disturbed with the total disrespect of a growing number of fly-by night hunters that think they can just buy new bow or pawn shop relic set it up for them on that day only to hear they're going on a hunt tomorrow with a bud! been denide hunting permission from many landowners for years because of such foolishness after so called bowhunters have stuck arrows in god knows where on game. I can't blame the farmers! Talked with ABA members & discussed a proficency test,gun hunters alike. By the way crossbows are not accurate!!

A little research maybe? Sheesh!

[honda450]

Originally Posted by elitexlr

Being a total archery(hunting & competitive 3d) & believe everyone has the right to hunt our great abundance or lack of in some cases of wild game, i have the opinion that this crossbow "phenom" is ever growing short cut to wanna be or lazy hunters! I help with tech work & coach junior archers @ local shop am totally disturbed with the total disrespect of a growing number of fly-by night hunters that think they can just buy new bow or pawn shop relic set it up for them on that day only to hear they're going on a hunt tomorrow with a bud! been denide hunting permission from many landowners for years because of such foolishness after so called bowhunters have stuck arrows in god knows where on game. I can't blame the farmers! Talked with ABA members & discussed a proficency test,gun hunters alike. By the way crossbows are not accurate!!

Guess ya think us rifle hunters are " wanna be or lazy hunters" too? Seems to me you are very narrow mined. Your statement of crossbow being not accurate is your opinion only. As Rob said do a little reseach bud before ya spew off. Oh yeah bud I don't really care about you credentials. You make ridiculous comments.

[209x50]

Originally Posted by LongDraw

ABA greedy attitude? What about the greedy, self serving individuals that want to introduce a new weapon into the archery pre-season? The legal definition of a bow and arrow would have to be scrapped to appease the noisy banter of a few.

From what you describe in your previous posts your axe to grind is directly with SRD and their policy on what the medical requirement is for a crossbow permit. SRD policy not ABA policy.

As far as I know the ABA is not sponsored by any archery or bow manufacturers, just a grassroots organization that represents the mandate set by its members.

Gee not at all like when the compound bow hunters wanted to be included into the archery season and the greedy traditional hunters threw a hissy fit. seems to me the compound bow was foreseen as the end of days if it was allowed. I was one of those greedy compound bow shooters at the time.
Like it or not if it has a stick and a string it will be in archery season and I'm betting sooner than later.
Read the letter to AO Long, the greedy nick comes from a director of the Ontario bow hunters it isn't something I made up.

[solocam]

Originally Posted by whitetail Junkie

Maybe you got an idea there,put all bow hunting on draw,I say that if you call yourself a bow hunter,then only hunt with a bow,thats it.

Its just common sense right!!

[LongDraw]

Originally Posted by 209x50

Gee not at all like when the compound bow hunters wanted to be included into the archery season and the greedy traditional hunters threw a hissy fit. seems to me the compound bow was foreseen as the end of days if it was allowed. I was one of those greedy compound bow shooters at the time.
Like it or not if it has a stick and a string it will be in archery season and I'm betting sooner than later.
Read the letter to AO Long, the greedy nick comes from a director of the Ontario bow hunters it isn't something I made up.

Compound, recurve, longbow or selfbow all fall within the legal definition and always have. All held back with muscular power. Zero let-off or 80%, you have to hold it at full draw- this is the crux of the discussion....

Direct your frustration to the agency that denies your permit- SRD.

Again- I know 2 individuals that have a crossbow permit and have all their limbs, no parapaligia or anything.

[Stinky Coyote]

do organizations generally evolve with the times?....stay current....etc. etc.? look how much back pedalling....i mean....changing the catholic church has had to do over the time to survive? gay marriage might be the next one they have to swallow or some shizzo like that but you get the point...

they aba is stuck in a time warp or something, hellooooo, 2010 coming up....for real

definition needs to be changed...fine, why isn't aba working to have that done? to benefit all of hunting in alberta and promote growth etc. and be 'modern' and 'current' and you know....getting with the times?

it seems obvious a definition good for one time period might not fit another time period and time to evolve....if thats all we gotta do is change a definition then this should be easy....who's fighting this again? oh yeah...the aba....

all i have to say is thank god for fuel injection....sure glad we got past carburators in modern motoring....

i get this whole 'crusty stubborn old bast__d' stigma in my head about this whole stance.....like i said before....why does alberta have to be the last to 'get it'? why cant we be forerunners for a change and show the other provinces/states how 'on top' of things we are in the hunting subjects?

we're dinosaurs

brutal

oh yeah, have i directed my frustration at the appropriate agency yet?...

[209x50]

Originally Posted by LongDraw

Why not "disgusted" with whoever in F&W is not granting a permit when it is deemed by a Doctor that you cannot draw and hold back a legal bow?

I've given up on the government shuffle, I think it will be easier to get crossbows included in the archery season then constantly trying to educate govt people.

[russ]

you know what I think...

I think that 209x50 and everyone else that says they've been unfairly treated should man up and show us the documentation. I refuse to believe that the SRD / AF&W would deny an honestly handi-capped person from a disabled persons permit.

Redact the personal info but scan the doc's a show us where & WHY you were denied that handi-cap permit.

[209x50]

Originally Posted by russ

you know what I think...

I think that 209x50 and everyone else that says they've been unfairly treated should man up and show us the documentation. I refuse to believe that the SRD / AF&W would deny an honestly handi-capped person from a disabled persons permit.

Redact the personal info but scan the doc's a show us where & WHY you were denied that handi-cap permit.

LOL! It will be a cold and frosty day in he11 before I'll ever feel the need to "man up" to appease the demands of an anonymous internet user name. You ABA types are all class Russ go call someone else a liar...

[russ]

All I'm asking for is documentation here, apparently that's too much to ask for.

[LongDraw]

Originally Posted by 209x50

LOL! It will be a cold and frosty day in he11 before I'll ever feel the need to "man up" to appease the demands of an anonymous internet user name. You ABA types are all class Russ go call someone else a liar...

You ABA types?

[LongDraw]

Originally Posted by 209x50

I've given up on the government shuffle, I think it will be easier to get crossbows included in the archery season then constantly trying to educate govt people.

While you are at it see if you can get it so all hunters can discharge a weapon from an OHV as well, probably easier than proving individual eligibility...

[209x50]

Originally Posted by LongDraw

While you are at it see if you can get it so all hunters can discharge a weapon from an OHV as well, probably easier than proving individual eligibility...

Aw, you sound bitter...

[3Dforme]

Wasn't the topic of this thread "crossbow season", when did it get changed into a grade 5 ****ing match over who gets the swings first?! For a bunch of "mature" "experienced" hunters you really should go back into a high school debate class and learn how to argue! I see no other sources of information to support any of your arguments! And what’s with all the personal attacks? Did everyone suddenly grow a set of "e-balls" because they got access to the internet? I'm pretty sure that if you were in the same room together this conversation would be at least semi-civil. So why don’t we get back on topic?

The “Cross-bow Licence” (often erroneously referred to as a handicapped permit) is frequently touted by those who believe one is readily obtainable from Alberta Sustainable Resource Development Fish and Wildlife Division. Apparently, those mistaken contributors also believe that this special licence provision should be enough to address the legitimate needs of anyone afflicted in a demonstrable way, such that conventional bows are beyond their confident physical ability.

Personally I see the Alberta Cross-bow Licence as being condescending, and virtually impossible to obtain. And I have serious doubts that it was ever drawn up with the true intent of accommodating anyone who has the slightest chance of participating in a meaningful way. The qualifying conditions are such that they can be perplexing to one’s family doctor, and should not require an applicant to seek expensive second opinion from a specialist either!

The Important Note to Physician on the application form reads as follows: “Please note that a license or permit of this kind in (sic) not issued for age-related or therapeutic reasons. Rather, these are issued to ameliorate certain conditions for applicants who meet the eligibility requirements set forth in the regulations.”

To be disallowed because of age and ‘age related reasons’ in this day and age is nothing short of defining intolerance. We are not protecting the public by such a denial; as in when an incapable senior has to surrender their motor vehicle operator licence! If hunting is not a sport, it is most definitely a bona fide and health promoting recreation, and one that some groups openly encourage if you meet “their” rules. I believe that any type of exclusive discrimination deserves being brought to the attention of the Canadian Human Rights Commission who might just ‘order a solution’.

But from what my research shows, this special Cross-bow Licence is being infrequently granted. An average of 241 such licenses per year were issued between 2000 and 2006 according to stats provided by the Hunting for Tomorrow Foundation. But the numbers vary from a high of 291 in 2001 to a low of 197 in 2006. The license issuing process is evidently inconsistent, possibly unfair, and apparently very much depends upon the mood or will of the signing F&W Officer. Despite that our Canadian wildlife belongs to all of us, there are some who apparently believe it belongs to them exclusively, and that “they” alone will dictate how it is killed and allocated.

Meanwhile, when an otherwise genuine applicant is refused a Cross-bow Licence that would allow them to stay in the game and play: What is being protected or saved by such a dismissive action?

Respectfully,

Sharpedge

[Brent Watson]

I come on this thread once in a while to see what the m***** think on the issue and for the most part there is a great deal of misinformation being bantered about. I have in the past and will again give those that are interested in the FACTS the facts as they pertain to the issue of crossbows in the archery season in Alberta and elsewhere as I know them.
As far as George Wagner's letter to AO, I served on the FCA Cossbow sub committee with George and had quite a bit of coorespondance with him on the ramifications any move to allow crossbows in the archery season will have in Alberta and some other parts of Canada, on what ours and other's positions are and why. George seems to have forgotten some of the things I talked to him about. I explained to George and have to everyone else, that the ABA and me personally are NOT against crossbows for hunting or general shooting -- we do not want them in any archery seasons. They are primitive weapons and can be used now in any general or primtive season here in Alberta. Most of the province's archery organizations in Canada and those in the FCA DO NOT deem crossbows to be archery equipment and do not want them in the FCA. We want the FCA to recognize the will of its members and not just one or two who may have an "agenda". We are not being sneaky at all -- these motions and such to the FCA are presented, discussed and voted on by provincial reps. If anyhting there seems to be some pressure and maneauvering to keep the ABA from being heard at all but we are trying to sort thru all that as we go.
George also forgets that the differences between the crossbow and real bow is that the real bow is drawn AND held by muscular power and is drawn in the presence of game. Youngsters, physically challenged hunters can easily use real bows with todays technologies and adaptations for physical disabilities. If not, they can use the crossbow in the GENERAL season.
Throughout George's letter and in the response from the editor, comments are made about the ABA and in a roundabout way, me, as I have been the president for the past 5 years and been dealing with this issue quite a bit. The words silly and selfish came out loud and clear and I am not sure how to respond to that - is a very unprofessional way to conduct a discussion/debate and usually that type of retoric comes from having a weak position and poor counter argument. I and the ABA will continue to debate this in the proper way.
To clear another thing up that was in AO, it is NOT the ABA's "archery season" -- it is for all of Alberta's present and future bowhunters. It was and is through the efforts of the ABA (since 1956) that what each and every one of you who do bowhunt, get to continue to enjoy that passion. I and the ABA have been working very closely with other sister groups and the govt to help fight the battles to keep doing what we all love to do as far as outdoor recreational and traditional pursuits go.
The reference to "what is clearly archery tackle (crossbows)" is certainly the view of a few and not that of most I have talked to or the membership of the ABA (who elect me and the rest of the executive to do what they want us to do -- if we are not doing what they want, we are not re-elected. Pretty simple).
AND I would like to know who all these others are who do not join because we are "silly and selfish" - maybe they are not getting the facts.

FACTS:
The ABA represents 1150 bowhunters (2009 numbers to date) out of 16500 total licenses sold from across the province. We have one of the highest member to overall bhtr number joining rates of anywhere in North America.
The ABA has made up anywhere from 20-30% of the total membership of the FCA in the last 5 years.
The ABA and it's president are NOT against the use of crossbows.
The ABA and its president are very cognizant of the need to fight battles against hunting in general and we are very involved in that BUT when we are threatened by the introduction of a primitve weapon into our archery seasons and we take on that challenge, we are called silly and selfish. Go figure.
The pressure to allow crossbows into the archery seasons (across North America)has come from manufacturers of crossbows, dealers - create a demand and we will supply it. That includes George's shop in Ontario. The PRO side of the argument is from many others who get free equipment, who get sponsorship/endorsements/advertising in exchange for a positive spin. I always take these things with a grain of salt and try and figure out how/who it benefits when something is said or written.
In those few areas that have allowed them, statistics available show that there is NO real increase in overall hunter numbers but a move with rifle hunters buying crossbows to use in this new season, a new opportunity.
In Alberta bowhunters are watched very closely as to harvest rates by SRD and to a lesser degree, AFGA. When we get to 10% we have seen seasons shortened, draws implemented, draw tags reduced. Has happened for antelope, moose and mule deer. Is not a myth.

Here's some simple math -- Alberta had 16500 in 2008 out of app 110000 overall hunters. That leaves app 93500 who do not use bows. Bowhunters are allowed app 10% of the harvest rate (CONFIRMED in meetings with SRD June 2008) for any particular species/season. In some states where crossbows were allowed, up to 40% of rifle hunters bought crossbows to use in this new season. Lets say that 20% would do that in Alberta. Now we have 18000 new hunters using our archery season - total would be 34500. Immediately we would be watched to see what would happen. In other areas success rate is the same as real bows but it would mean a doubling of harvest and that would mean shorter archery seasons, more draws, less tags in other draws (again CONFIRMED in June 2008 SRD meetings). If any one of you has ever bowhunted antelope it would be devastating on them with a crossbow. lay on your belly with fully cocked crossbow ready (for hours if need be) and just pull the trigger when he comes in. How does defending the allowing of a primitive weapon into an archery season, and the erotion of that activity, be silly and selfish?
The Saskatchewan Bhtrs Assoc were told by their F&W department that if crossbows were allowed and the harvest rate did go up, they would loose their archery seasons and everyone would just be lumped into the general season. Pretty FAIR you think!!
IF hunter numbers escalate if crossbows were ever allowed, and using the numbers from above, the number of hunters using the archery season could jump from 16500 (15% of the overall hunter total) to 34500 (based on a 20% crossover and would now be 31%). In being fair, at 15% of the overall hunter numbers we were allowed a 10% harvest rate SO if we go to 31% of the overall hunter numbers our share of the harvest needs to be adjusted to at least 20%. Where would those days and tag numbers come from? Guess it would have to be taken from the general season but fair is fair. Should any of the general season hunters or groups disagree they must be silly and selfish (using the criteria established by some)!!
Our next ABA banquet and convention will be in the Edmonton area end of March or first part of April - we are just firming up a hotel now. In 2011 it will be in Red Deer April 3/4 and once again Fred Eichler will be our guest.
I invite everyone to attend our AGM meetings and bring your concerns, we will discuss things and you can even get involved as we have various positions up for election each year. If you are interested, the president's position is up in 2011.

Brent Watson
2009 ABA President

[209x50]

The pressure to allow crossbows into the archery seasons (across North America)has come from manufacturers of crossbows, dealers - create a demand and we will supply it. That includes George's shop in Ontario. The PRO side of the argument is from many others who get free equipment, who get sponsorship/endorsements/advertising in exchange for a positive spin. I always take these things with a grain of salt and try and figure out how/who it benefits when something is said or written.

You don't however mention the people who just want to hunt with a crossbow in archery season. Don't they count?

Here's some simple math -- Alberta had 16500 in 2008 out of app 110000 overall hunters. That leaves app 93500 who do not use bows. Bowhunters are allowed app 10% of the harvest rate (CONFIRMED in meetings with SRD June 2008) for any particular species/season. In some states where crossbows were allowed, up to 40% of rifle hunters bought crossbows to use in this new season. Lets say that 20% would do that in Alberta. Now we have 18000 new hunters using our archery season - total would be 34500. Immediately we would be watched to see what would happen. In other areas success rate is the same as real bows but it would mean a doubling of harvest and that would mean shorter archery seasons, more draws, less tags in other draws

So, I don't see a down side to archery being on draw, it always should have been in my view.

The Saskatchewan Bhtrs Assoc were told by their F&W department that if crossbows were allowed and the harvest rate did go up, they would loose their archery seasons and everyone would just be lumped into the general season. Pretty FAIR you think!!

Big deal! We are told that crossbows belong in general season so why not the rest of the archery gear?
Brent from your side you feel your reason for not allowing crossbows (more hunters) sounds just and right but from my side it sounds elitist and selfish. JMHO

[LongDraw]

Originally Posted by 209x50

So, I don't see a down side to archery being on draw, it always should have been in my view.

Why should have archery always been on draw??