Down rigger weights

[Salmon Slayer Lenny]

Originally Posted by EZM

Rav,

.... Use the heaviest weight you can ........... thousands of Salmon fisherman with thousands of years of experience can't be doing wrong. See for yourself - give it a try.

I agree 100% about using the heaviest weight possible, this alone helps decrease any slack in the line (curve, wave, etc). Trying to calculate the lengths of the triangle is impossible, there aren't 3 straight lines to the formula and agree that there are two many variables. If you have a decent sounder, you can see your ball and figure out the actual depth. I think the best way to estimate your distances is use braided downrigger line (less drag and resistance = less blow back and bend/curve in the line) and also use braided fishing line, no stretch, less blow back and constant tension on the line.

For best speed, look for a 45 degree angle in your lines, both your downrigger line and fishing line should appear at the same angle. If they aren't, there's probably a lot more blow back on your fishing line. This can lead to missed hits and missed fish.

[Mackinaw]

Originally Posted by RavYak

The exact angle doesn't matter nor does the speed or lure. The only way to compare difference in balls is to have the other variables the same and given a certain speed, lure and depth a heavier ball will always hang more vertical(I believe we should agree on that). The only reason it wouldn't is if it had too much more drag(say made of a lighter material) but given our experience with downrigger weights I am going to assume we agree a heavier weight hangs more vertical. Then as you can see by this chart(instead of just a couple examples) the more vertical you are the higher the amount of slack after release.



Regarding a fish strike that is a bit more complex to prove using math(too many variables and non linear equations regarding the drag, speed, angles of line in release etc) but the primary forces involved would be drag, momentum and the cable tension. It seems to me anyways that logically a lighter weight will have more induced blow back because the fish will slow the balls momentum down more then it will a heavier weight. As an example if a fish strikes a 1000 lb downrigger weight it will likely have a negligible affect on the downrigger, but with a 10 lb weight I expect you do see the ball slow down inducing blow back. Again more blow back means less slack which means even due to a fish strike a lighter ball will have less slack.

Also this does agree with my experience although it is a different experience and less applicable to the OP's situation. When trolling in buddies boat at Cold Lake using heavy(15 lb) weights slack line is an issue. Our first couple trips out my fishing buddy was losing more fish then me because he was using a conventional baitcaster with lower speed ratio then my low profile baitcaster. When I would get a bite I could pop the line free and make up the slack line quickly whereas he would lose some fish before he could make up the slack line, he now uses a low profile baitcaster as well to make up for this. On the other hand when I troll with my downrigger on my kayak I use a 4 lb ball and my slack line is negligible, as soon as I break free I am instantly hooked up. This is a lot different then 15 lb vs 20 lb and although I have fished both about the same amount of line out I was probably not as deep with my 4 lb ball. It does agree with the math though which I am certain is correct.

I'm not saying your math is wrong it quite likely is right on paper ...but it would not be the first time that the figures did not justify in reality. I will stick to my big balls thanks....lol

Mack

[opto55]

Thank you to all. Interesting. I am going to start with 12# and see what happens.

[FishHunterPro]

Originally Posted by Shooter's Optometrist

Thank you to all. Interesting. I am going to start with 12# and see what happens.

Hey you can use 250lb braid downrigger line by Scotty , will help with less drag and you won't get the hum from the steel cable.

[fish99]

about the hum , before gps when trolling for salmon we would speed up until the cables hummed and thats how we knew we were at the right speed,

[Van Island]

12lb too light, fish can be deep at times (+100ft). Heavier weights equal better depth control at varying (higher speeds) speeds = more fish. I haven't used 12lb weights in a long long time. Note if using 15lbers, need 250 braid - I use Power Pro.

[Van Island]

Forgot to mention, you can use 15lbers at 30ft to 200ft....12lbs dont cut it below 100 ft......thinking about going to 18lb soon.....commercial trolling

[Salmon Slayer Lenny]

Originally Posted by Shooter's Optometrist

Thank you to all. Interesting. I am going to start with 12# and see what happens.

Go with 15#'s, then you won't regret it. The extra cost is minimal. As others have said, the extra 25% difference helps a ton. I mostly fish over 100' and in strong current, the 15's are barely enough. I'd go heavier but want to conserve battery draw.

I like the 200 lb Scotty braid over the 250. I just add a snubber to the end, haven't had any issues yet in three years using it.

[Peppysan]

Thought I would jump in here and do a little AutoCad to prove some data with an actual scale model.
I am not attempting to step on any toes here, but I thought it was a good problem to visualize for my own interest.
The results I see are quite interesting and thought I would share them here.

To begin, the parameters to adhere to is;
1) Fixed drop depth of the down rigger line, in this case 100’.
2) Trolling speed will be held constant, (how much really doesn’t matter) just assume constant.
3) Water drag on the fishing line is also a constant, and like already mentioned too many variables to really determine how much it will actually sweep back, so for this example all are using the same radius.

The original question was “how much weight to use”?
So let’s use 4 different “weights” and that each will hang, (drag back) at an angle much like I have shown. (see image) (On a side note, based on speed and current (and tide) any weight can sweep back up to 45 degrees so this is just a visualization.)
So let’s say an 8# weight will sweep back 20 degrees at our prescribed boat speed.
Then a 10# weight will then sweep back 15 degrees.
A 12# weight sweeps back at the 10 degree mark.
And last but not least a 14# weight sweeps back only 5 degrees.
Now something that nobody has mentioned is the retaining clip that the “Fishing Line” is clipped to, right at the down rigger ball. (More on that later). For all cases, another constant parameter would have to be the amount of line played out from the “Pinch Point” of the retaining clip. In this example a constant 25ft, is pretty common.
So dead stop numbers (White) are 100ft of downrigger line out, 25ft clipped line back, 109.6ft in a straight line from the rod tip to the hook. Now let’s start trolling.

At a 5 degree sweep (Red) back from with our 14# weight we are now 5 inches off bottom, and an additional 8ft 9in back of our 25ft mark, so that makes the hook now 33ft 9in behind the boat. Our line out went from 109.6ft to 142.1ft.

At a 10 degree sweep (Yellow) back from with our 12# weight we are now 1ft 6 inches off bottom, and an additional 17ft 4in back of our 25ft mark, so that makes the hook now 42ft 4in behind the boat. Our line out went from 109.6ft to 141.5ft.

At a 15 degree sweep (Magenta) back from with our 10# weight we are now 3ft 5 inches off bottom, and an additional 25ft 11in back of our 25ft mark, so that makes the hook now 50ft 11in behind the boat. Our line out went from 109.6ft to 140.9ft.

At a 20 degree sweep (Blue) back from with our 8# weight we are now 6 feet off bottom, and an additional 34ft 2in back of our 25ft mark, so that makes the hook now 59ft 2in behind the boat. Our line out went from 109.6ft to 140.3ft.

Having this scale model to work with shows that the fishing line length really is not affected that much from our degree of drag by what ever amount of weight that you choose to use. It only amounts to a change of only 1ft 9 inches.
The real and largest variable is the distance that the actual hook is set back from the boat having moved from a static 25ft to a whopping 59ft back from where you maybe thought it was. It is also now 6 feet up from our static depth of 100ft so only 94ft deep, even though 100ft of down rigger line is out.

So when it comes to a “Hook up” on a hit I see the real defining point is the “RELEASE”. There are a few styles of release that can be used but I will go with the “Scotty” basic clothes line type release. I know from setting that line into the clip, (thousands of times personally) that this can vary 1000 times. It may be the strength of the spring, the age of the rubber, the type of line you use, fish slime on your fingers, how far into the rubber you set it etc. etc.
Another over looked condition is the “Trolling” Rod, how do you set it? Are you using a rod designed for this application? I have seen it positioned in a rod holder at least a 100 different ways, the angle and the amount of pre-tension imparted into the core of the rod shaft has a very great part in making a “Hook Up” Hook up.
First and foremost is bringing in as much slack, (that 140ft or so) as you can physically do with out tripping your release. This will minimize the amount of line (slack) that is out there dragging though the water. So when that monster fish decides to swallow your offering, you ideally want the release to let-er-go, and the minimal slack out there is taken up by the action of the rod snapping out of it's pre-tensioned condition, and the rod being placed in the holder as if you were holding it “Tip Up” until you can reach it and enjoy the game.

Well that’s my take on attempting to answer the OP’s question, I hope that maybe someone has learned a little from this explanation and if you can see where I may have steered you wrong please let me know.

Oh and my answer is . . . how much weight? It doesn’t really mater, unless you want to keep in tight to the boat with your gear.

Zoomed in to see the numbers



Hope these show up.
If not then click on this link to see them.
https://photos.google.com/share/AF1Q...diandpRDB1R2Nn

[Salmon Slayer Lenny]

Originally Posted by Peppysan

.....Oh and my answer is . . . how much weight? It doesn’t really mater, unless you want to keep in tight to the boat with your gear.[/LEFT]

That's kind of the ultimate point, keeping the gear in as tight as possible with the minimal amount of drift. This = more total line. The more drift, the more likely tangled lines, have to be more careful when trolling in groups (crossing gear) and you also need to be way more careful when turning while trolling. All the more significant if you are fishing deeper, which I typically need to do at over 175'+ unless I'm targeting pinks or sockeye.

To release the line from the clip (if the fish didn't do this), I like to drop the gear/cannonball unless you are fishing bottom/bottom bouncing, then bring the gear up 10' or so. A benefit to this it it results in less broken rods, less wear and tear on the rods and is consistent. Works especially well for monofilament line where you have to fight to take up extra slack (especially if you have line creep), reeling down first, then the 'setting motion' to pop the line to release the line from the clip.

[SNAPFisher]

Good thing I wasn't drinking coffee when I saw the "autocad" drawing. There are some good subtle sense of humours on this thread

[Mike_W]

Oh my you guys and your diagrams hook up ratio bs lol
Get yourself some 150-200 pound power pro downrigger line and some 12 or 15 lb balls.
This is probably the most common setup on the coast by avid fishermen and guides.
Personally I am running 200 lb powerpro and 15 lb balls.
IMO 20 lbs is crazy heavy and I don't see the need 12 lb ball will work just fine too especially in the depth you are fishing. I only have the 15s as they are nice when I fish the WCVI in 150-200 FOW.

[Mackinaw]

The first and foremost thing is to get the ball at the right depth which takes weight.
If you can lift the ball it ain't to heavy..

Mack

[Salmon Slayer Lenny]

Originally Posted by Peppysan

[LEFT]Thought I would jump in here and do a little AutoCad to prove some data with an actual scale model.
I am not attempting to step on any toes here, but I thought it was a good problem to visualize for my own interest.
The results I see are quite interesting and thought I would share them here.

To begin, the parameters to adhere to is;
1) Fixed drop depth of the down rigger line, in this case 100’.
2) Trolling speed will be held constant, (how much really doesn’t matter) just assume constant.
3) Water drag on the fishing line is also a constant, and like already mentioned too many variables to really determine how much it will actually sweep back, so for this example all are using the same radius.

The original question was “how much weight to use”?
So let’s use 4 different “weights” and that each will hang, (drag back) at an angle much like I have shown. (see image) (On a side note, based on speed and current (and tide) any weight can sweep back up to 45 degrees so this is just a visualization.)
So let’s say an 8# weight will sweep back 20 degrees at our prescribed boat speed.
Then a 10# weight will then sweep back 15 degrees.
A 12# weight sweeps back at the 10 degree mark.
And last but not least a 14# weight sweeps back only 5 degrees.
Now something that nobody has mentioned is the retaining clip that the “Fishing Line” is clipped to, right at the down rigger ball. (More on that later). For all cases, another constant parameter would have to be the amount of line played out from the “Pinch Point” of the retaining clip. In this example a constant 25ft, is pretty common.
So dead stop numbers (White) are 100ft of downrigger line out, 25ft clipped line back, 109.6ft in a straight line from the rod tip to the hook. Now let’s start trolling.

At a 5 degree sweep (Red) back from with our 14# weight we are now 5 inches off bottom, and an additional 8ft 9in back of our 25ft mark, so that makes the hook now 33ft 9in behind the boat. Our line out went from 109.6ft to 142.1ft.

At a 10 degree sweep (Yellow) back from with our 12# weight we are now 1ft 6 inches off bottom, and an additional 17ft 4in back of our 25ft mark, so that makes the hook now 42ft 4in behind the boat. Our line out went from 109.6ft to 141.5ft.

At a 15 degree sweep (Magenta) back from with our 10# weight we are now 3ft 5 inches off bottom, and an additional 25ft 11in back of our 25ft mark, so that makes the hook now 50ft 11in behind the boat. Our line out went from 109.6ft to 140.9ft.

At a 20 degree sweep (Blue) back from with our 8# weight we are now 6 feet off bottom, and an additional 34ft 2in back of our 25ft mark, so that makes the hook now 59ft 2in behind the boat. Our line out went from 109.6ft to 140.3ft.

Having this scale model to work with shows that the fishing line length really is not affected that much from our degree of drag by what ever amount of weight that you choose to use. It only amounts to a change of only 1ft 9 inches.
The real and largest variable is the distance that the actual hook is set back from the boat having moved from a static 25ft to a whopping 59ft back from where you maybe thought it was. It is also now 6 feet up from our static depth of 100ft so only 94ft deep, even though 100ft of down rigger line is out.

I was waiting for someone else to pick up on a significant flaw in all of these algebraic equations and that is, regardless of how much downrigger cable/line/braid you have out, if you are fishing at 100' of depth, you need to adjust and let more line out. The equations and auto CAD aren't accounting for this. Regardless of what you calculate, it's a lot more than the 5" - 6 ' you are quoting.

First hand experience, bottom bouncing in 200' of water (confirmed on sounder and when stationary with downrigger, straight up and down. Rigger and sounder were within 2' of each other). I begin trolling at a proper trolling speed (3.8 mph speed over ground). Downrigger line and fishing line are at approximately 45 degrees, I let the downrigger line out until I hit bottom, which is now at approximately 250'. If I want my lure/bait to be 10' off the bottom, I bring my downrigger up about 5'.

This was using 250 lb Scotty braid, 30 lb mono line and 15 lb cannonballs.

[opto55]

So how about 12# and fin or fish shaped weights to reduce drag? Great information guys!

[KegRiver]

Originally Posted by Shooter's Optometrist

So how about 12# and fin or fish shaped weights to reduce drag? Great information guys!

First, best of luck.

My brothers and I use a 10 pound round ball, it works for us and that's all that matters to us.

We can see our termal gear on our Sonar so we know what depth it's at. But we also find that fish, especially Salmon don't read books so they don't always hold to the same depth.
They will go up or down a fair ways to reach a bait.

[Scott h]

Originally Posted by Van Island

12lb too light, fish can be deep at times (+100ft). Heavier weights equal better depth control at varying (higher speeds) speeds = more fish. I haven't used 12lb weights in a long long time. Note if using 15lbers, need 250 braid - I use Power Pro.

He's got a good point.I said earlier that I prefer 12 # and braid but I also fish in QCI's exclusively so I don't have to fish nearly as deep as Vancouver Island anglers have to fish.

[Salmon Slayer Lenny]

Originally Posted by Shooter's Optometrist

Thank you to all. Interesting. I am going to start with 12# and see what happens.

Just curious as to why 12#'s?

The vast majority of people here on A.O as well as SFBC are saying to go with 15's or better.

[opto55]

I will try one of each and see what happens? Lots of information on this topic.

[Peppysan]

[QUOTE=First hand experience, bottom bouncing in 200' of water (confirmed on sounder and when stationary with downrigger, straight up and down. Rigger and sounder were within 2' of each other). I begin trolling at a proper trolling speed (3.8 mph speed over ground). Downrigger line and fishing line are at approximately 45 degrees, I let the downrigger line out until I hit bottom, which is now at approximately 250'. If I want my lure/bait to be 10' off the bottom, I bring my downrigger up about 5'.[/QUOTE]

I don't mean to come down on you for what you think is happening, I just don't think that given the numbers YOU quoted is at all possible, just do the math. In reality at 200 ft of depth letting out 250 ft of down rigger line CAN NOT REACH the bottom at a 45 degree angle, it's more like (to be exact) 282ft 10 inches of line to make that happen. Your precise angle to achieve your numbers is 36.86 degrees. And that is the way it is and I don't care how you stretch, bend, fold or drag it, that's how the numbers work to touch bottom. OK so your out on your angle, no big deal, but bringing it back 5 feet will only lift you off bottom by 4 FEET, at 36 degrees, at 45 degrees it would only be 3ft 6in off the bottom. That's the true math, now we don't want to steer the inexperienced members that are reading this in the wrong direction and are here hoping to learn something, do we?

[Mackinaw]

I'm thinking there is to many mathematicians and not enough fishermen on this forum
😨

Mack

[Willowtrail]

Originally Posted by Shooter's Optometrist

So where do I buy 15 # weights?

I'm making some tomorrow, let me know if you want a couple, I have the mould for them and will be making a few extras

[EZM]

Originally Posted by Salmon Slayer Lenny

I was waiting for someone else to pick up on a significant flaw in all of these algebraic equations and that is, regardless of how much downrigger cable/line/braid you have out, if you are fishing at 100' of depth, you need to adjust and let more line out. The equations and auto CAD aren't accounting for this. Regardless of what you calculate, it's a lot more than the 5" - 6 ' you are quoting.

First hand experience, bottom bouncing in 200' of water (confirmed on sounder and when stationary with downrigger, straight up and down. Rigger and sounder were within 2' of each other). I begin trolling at a proper trolling speed (3.8 mph speed over ground). Downrigger line and fishing line are at approximately 45 degrees, I let the downrigger line out until I hit bottom, which is now at approximately 250'. If I want my lure/bait to be 10' off the bottom, I bring my downrigger up about 5'.

This was using 250 lb Scotty braid, 30 lb mono line and 15 lb cannonballs.

AGREE 100%

That was my point after the first diagram was posted - this second drawing has the same problem. The math doesn't work, neither does the logic.

The fact that it doesn't work that way, in a real life application, on the water, doesn't matter I guess. lol.

A heavier ball increases will allow for better hook sets off a loaded rod when the release is tripped, allow you to use less line and cable, reduce tangles, etc.... but hey ......... the fancy diagram say's that's wrong.

Anyone who has actually spent any time using downriggers would know this and wouldn't make such a ridiculous argument.

And .......There is no point in arguing something with someone who believes they are smarter than everyone else.

The problem is there are more than a few of us on here with more experience and just as much (or more) education that see right through this.

But ........ whatever ......... sometimes it's just better to let people talk ......

I agree with you.

There's just no point in arguing sometimes when someone is convinced they have to be right .......... even if they are 100% wrong.

[RavYak]

Originally Posted by Salmon Slayer Lenny

I'd try a heavier ball to try to get rid of the hum, and/or add a 3025 downrigger weight retriever tie it off with some tension on your cable. http://www.scotty.com/fishing-gear-e...ghts-parts.htm

The hum is probably high frequency modulation. If you add more weight, the added tension on the line should help it either decrease all together, or increase the frequency so that it's not audible. (think of tightening a guitar string). With 10, 12, 15 lb weights, I've never experienced it. And yes, I'd agree that switching to braid would also help.

I would use a heavier ball but dragging around a 4 lb ball in kayak is all I would want to do all day. Man power vs motor power lol.

Originally Posted by Salmon Slayer Lenny

I agree 100% about using the heaviest weight possible, this alone helps decrease any slack in the line (curve, wave, etc). Trying to calculate the lengths of the triangle is impossible, there aren't 3 straight lines to the formula and agree that there are two many variables. If you have a decent sounder, you can see your ball and figure out the actual depth. I think the best way to estimate your distances is use braided downrigger line (less drag and resistance = less blow back and bend/curve in the line) and also use braided fishing line, no stretch, less blow back and constant tension on the line.

For best speed, look for a 45 degree angle in your lines, both your downrigger line and fishing line should appear at the same angle. If they aren't, there's probably a lot more blow back on your fishing line. This can lead to missed hits and missed fish.

a) There are 3 lines, downrigger ball to lure is straight, rod to fish after hookup is straight, rod to downrigger ball is curved due to drag.

b) As I speculated and Peppysan's model backed up the more vertical line(heavier ball) is effected more by the line curvature which as I stated earlier increases slack not the other way around as you claim. His results are actually more amplified as I believe his curvature is exaggerated compared to what it would actually look like and if you reduced the curvature you would arrive at the conclusion(as he pretty much already did) that the curvature is negligible and can be approximated by a straight line...

c) Peppysan's model also showed that although the difference in line length due to curvature in the line is small the distances in line length from rod to fish after hookup is significant(his model doesn't give this info but it is obvious looking at it). If he were to add the distances of rod to lure for each case so we could determine slack you would find the slack is larger for heavier weights. Reason being total line out changes only a little(L1+L2 remains roughly constant) while the distance from rod to fish(L3) decreases noticeably with a heavier weight. Remember slack is L1(near constat) + L2(constant)- L3(decreases with heavier weights) therefore again for the umpteenth time slack increases with a heavier weight...

d) You can't tell downrigger ball depth with a fish finder... Fish finders use sonar, sonar measures distance from the fish finder and does not take into account angles. If the fish finder is mounted directly below the downrigger mount it will read the same "depth" when the boat is stationary or moving even though the ball will have raised up higher due to blow back when moving. For example you let 100 ft out, stationary the ball reads 100 ft depth because it is hanging 100 ft straight down. Moving the ball is still 100 ft away but at an angle, the sonar still takes the same amount of time to reach ball and return to transducer so still reads the same depth. There might be minor changes due to location of fish finder vs downrigger mount etc but you cannot accurately read the depth of your downrigger ball(unless you have someone else in another boat follow directly above your downrigger ball which brings me to a way to test this theory). To test let a significant amount of line out with a downrigger ball and a have a buddy follow behind you and compare the two readings you get for depth. His will be "shallower" then yours(albeit might be a small difference and hard to determine accurately enough).

You guys don't need to listen to me(it's a free world) but frankly the math is right and your speculations are wrong... Feel free to test it how I explained earlier if you refuse to accept math as an answer.

Edit: Appears I am not the only one that doesn't sleep...

EZM you guys can swear by your experience but I can guarantee you that you haven't noticed a significant change in slack from changing ball weight. The change is small(around 3 ft difference per 5 degree change in blowback) and it would be very difficult to realize this difference when there are so many different factors(did you have the same tension on line, which direction did the fish swim after striking etc) that have a much greater affect. It is a small change and even in the iota of a chance that EVERY SINGLE ASPECT(not just one...) of the math and science on the subject is wrong I doubt you would notice a difference, definitely not a significant enough of a change to double your hookup ratio... Maybe getting a better hookset from the heavier ball having more momentum, I could believe that, but not from a mathematically improbable change in slack line after hookset.

[RavYak]

Oh and for an example/proof as to why you can't read a downrigger balls depth with your sonar look no further then a fish arch.

For those that do not understand why a fish creates an arch I will explain. A fish enters edge of the cone as far from transducer as possible, as you pass over top of the fish you are shortening the distance to the fish until the top of the arch is formed and then the fish exits the cone making it appear lower again. The fish likely never moved but its "depth" may have changed a matter of feet according to the fish finder.

[Salmon Slayer Lenny]

Originally Posted by Peppysan

I don't mean to come down on you for what you think is happening, I just don't think that given the numbers YOU quoted is at all possible, just do the math. In reality at 200 ft of depth letting out 250 ft of down rigger line CAN NOT REACH the bottom at a 45 degree angle, it's more like (to be exact) 282ft 10 inches of line to make that happen. Your precise angle to achieve your numbers is 36.86 degrees. And that is the way it is and I don't care how you stretch, bend, fold or drag it, that's how the numbers work to touch bottom. OK so your out on your angle, no big deal, but bringing it back 5 feet will only lift you off bottom by 4 FEET, at 36 degrees, at 45 degrees it would only be 3ft 6in off the bottom. That's the true math, now we don't want to steer the inexperienced members that are reading this in the wrong direction and are here hoping to learn something, do we?

Ever heard the expression that sometimes things just don't add up?

If you want to figure that the math doesn't work, have at it. I really don't care one way or the other. Based on my numbers provided, why don't you plug them into the computer and tell me what the angle of my line is (was) then and what depth my balls were at?

As for not being able to see a cannonball on the sounder? Okay.....

[Salmon Slayer Lenny]

Maybe you guys can help me out and explain why my downrigger line and my fishing line have significantly different angles here in this picture?
[IMG][/IMG]

[catnthehat]

Math??
Hook it up until the clip doesn't release as you let the cable down ,set your depth and relax guys, it's not an international physics convention it's fishing and it should be fun!
Cat

[Salmon Slayer Lenny]

Originally Posted by catnthehat

Math??
Hook it up until the clip doesn't release as you let the cable down ,set your depth and relax guys, it's not an international physics convention it's fishing and it should be fun!
Cat

I agree 1,000,000 %, even though I know in most instances it is mathematically impossible to achieve more than 100%...

Just having some fun because on the water, the last thing I want to do is have to think or spend time doing calculations. I just want to fish.

[rem338win]

I've run 12 and 15 pounds always.

Run 12's with a 36" leader to 50 and 50+ I run 15's with a 45 or 60" leader last that. I find it minimizes the yaw and keeps me down there.

I have 18's but never use them.