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07-30-2013, 12:30 PM
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Interesting Take on TO Streetcar Shooting
http://fullcomment.nationalpost.com/...ng-assailants/
It'll be interesting to see how this case comes out, ie. was it justified, or not.
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07-30-2013, 12:45 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by TomCanuck
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Five officers and the first response is gun fire ?? Uh what did we get tasers for?? If shooting was ligitimite I'm not saying it was not. why nine shots ?? Not the best fire control if everybodies firing at once.. great argument against ccw thou. If the police cant make that deduction Why should joe public imo. Glad only d bag got his comupance.
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07-30-2013, 12:45 PM
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That test had the officers gun holstered.
If the officer already had the gun in his hand (but not shooting nine times)
he would react a LOT faster.
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07-30-2013, 01:24 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by brslk
That test had the officers gun holstered.
If the officer already had the gun in his hand (but not shooting nine times)
he would react a LOT faster.
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From a G&M article:
http://www.theglobeandmail.com/comme...ticle13486676/
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The firing of nine shots is concerning, but there are things to consider. Officers who have made the split-second decision to use lethal force will rarely fire a single shot. This is because the average police-issue sidearm will hit a target that is between six and 21 feet away less than 25 per cent of the time, according to New York Police Department statistics that were analyzed by The New York Times in 2007. Police sidearms are chosen for their reliability, not their accuracy. Even at a range of six feet or less, the accuracy rate is below 50 per cent. Officers are consequently trained only to stop an armed person from advancing; there is no gain in attempting to inflict a wound, and the officer will continue to fire until he or she is certain the armed person no longer poses a threat.
"
shooting at a perceived threat is a lot different from punching paper I would think the stress involved is considerable.
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07-30-2013, 01:32 PM
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9 shots
The problem is that most watch to much TV. Unfortunately this is real life and you do not take just 1 shot. The only ones trained to shot 1 at time are the ones that have a red dot pointed on a person's head.
Another scum off the streets of the lowest crime city in Canada PITTY.
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07-30-2013, 01:33 PM
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One thing is for certain, if buddy the perforated pervert didn't go waving his pecker at women while brandishing a knife we'd not be having this conversation.
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07-30-2013, 01:40 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by TomCanuck
From a G&M article:
http://www.theglobeandmail.com/comme...ticle13486676/
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The firing of nine shots is concerning, but there are things to consider. Officers who have made the split-second decision to use lethal force will rarely fire a single shot. This is because the average police-issue sidearm will hit a target that is between six and 21 feet away less than 25 per cent of the time, according to New York Police Department statistics that were analyzed by The New York Times in 2007. Police sidearms are chosen for their reliability, not their accuracy. Even at a range of six feet or less, the accuracy rate is below 50 per cent. Officers are consequently trained only to stop an armed person from advancing; there is no gain in attempting to inflict a wound, and the officer will continue to fire until he or she is certain the armed person no longer poses a threat.
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shooting at a perceived threat is a lot different from punching paper I would think the stress involved is considerable. |
So 50% - 75% of the time the police miss and the bullets go where... right... that really inspires confidence..... 
I don't buy the excuse of close range in this situation and here is why...
The guy was on the street car.. he had to go to either the front or rear exit to leave the vehicle. He would then have to move down the stairs and then onto the street wielding his knife and threatening officers... The officers could have easily deployed other tactics while this guy was in the street car.
It makes me think of shooting/huntng an animal in a cage... ohhh... big threat when there is no where for him to go, so lets deploy lethal force, then spin the story an do the back track dance LEO's do all too often.....
Last edited by NEWB; 07-30-2013 at 01:48 PM.
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07-30-2013, 01:45 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by rellum
The problem is that most watch to much TV. Unfortunately this is real life and you do not take just 1 shot. The only ones trained to shot 1 at time are the ones that have a red dot pointed on a person's head.
Another scum off the streets of the lowest crime city in Canada PITTY.
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Single aimed shot center mass,target, go on. Target stop . Example of good fire control. Five coppers bustn caps in a perps general example of poor fire control . control the situation is why they get guns. Cabber has the actual point. This is a knife, this is my gun,you have a pistol . Bang .job done .
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07-30-2013, 01:50 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by NEWB
So 50% - 75% of the time the police miss and the bullets go where... right... that really inspires confidence.....
I don't but the excuse of close range in this situation and here is why...
The guy was on the street car.. he had to go to either the front or rear exit to leave the vehicle. He would then have to move down the stairs and then onto the street wielding his knife and threatening officers... The officers could have easily deployed other tactics while this guy was in the street car.
It makes me think of shooting/huntng an animal in a cage... ohhh... big threat when there is no where for him to go, so lets deploy lethal force, then spin the story an do the back track dance LEO's do all too often..... |
Most hunters know, that a cornered animal is a dangerous animal. The guy was warned not to advance. Oops, guess he pushed it just a little too far. It's an unfortunate event, but I doubt that too many are losing any sleep over it. Moral of the story is, if you brandish a knife, it might cost you.
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07-30-2013, 01:54 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by TomCanuck
Most hunters know, that a cornered animal is a dangerous animal. The guy was warned not to advance. Oops, guess he pushed it just a little too far. It's an unfortunate event, but I doubt that too many are losing any sleep over it. Moral of the story is, if you brandish a knife, it might cost you.
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Yes, I am well versed in the art of war by sun tzu....
The police are a bunch of buffoons is the moral of the story. There are many more tactics that could have been deployed to have this situation resolved differently.
You don't need to bust 9 caps into a guy wielding a knife on a street car then tazer him to get him off....
The police overstepped their boundaries, where caught on film and now their incompetence and willful disobedience of the law has caught up with them.
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07-30-2013, 01:57 PM
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Banned
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Quote:
Originally Posted by NEWB
Yes, I am well versed in the art of war by sun tzu....
The police are a bunch of buffoons is the moral of the story. There are many more tactics that could have been deployed to have this situation resolved differently.
You don't need to bust 9 caps into a guy wielding a knife on a street car then tazer him to get him off....
The police overstepped their boundaries, where caught on film and now their incompetence and willful disobedience of the law has caught up with them.
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Got to say tazzering first then shoot ,would of saved a bunch of ammo and paper work.
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07-30-2013, 02:01 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by NEWB
Yes, I am well versed in the art of war by sun tzu....
The police are a bunch of buffoons is the moral of the story. There are many more tactics that could have been deployed to have this situation resolved differently.
You don't need to bust 9 caps into a guy wielding a knife on a street car then tazer him to get him off....
The police overstepped their boundaries, where caught on film and now their incompetence and willful disobedience of the law has caught up with them.
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In you opinion...
No question the optics here aren't good, but armchair perceptions don't or at least should not carry a lot of legal weight. Fact is, he might have been acting within the rules when he fired the shots. Time will tell, no doubt some have already made their conclusions based on the optics alone.
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07-30-2013, 02:04 PM
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Gone Hunting
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"This is because the average police-issue sidearm will hit a target that is between six and 21 feet away less than 25 per cent of the time, according to New York Police Department statistics that were analyzed by The New York Times in 2007. Police sidearms are chosen for their reliability, not their accuracy. Even at a range of six feet or less, the accuracy rate is below 50 per cent. "
So guns do kill people, but only 25% of the time if they are guns that the PD owns.
HMmm? That's not even good enough for gopher shooting.
I can see the advantage of simply sending the gun to the shootout while the officer finishes his cruller and DD.
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07-30-2013, 02:10 PM
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Location: Edmonton
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Quote:
Originally Posted by TomCanuck
In you opinion...
No question the optics here aren't good, but armchair perceptions don't or at least should not carry a lot of legal weight. Fact is, he might have been acting within the rules when he fired the shots. Time will tell, no doubt some have already made their conclusions based on the optics alone.
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I don't recall in Police policy where it is approved to shoot, kill then Tazer. Can you quote your source on this for me as this is the path this has taken.
I would take the weight of video recordings any day over an officers word. If it were not for your coined "arm chair perceptions" polices would remain stagnet, no changes to command would happen and the same protocol would be followed as a precedence has been set.
Fact is he was not acting with in the rules when he fired the shots. Really... firing 9 shots killing someone who is on a street car with 2 exits, then tasering them after they are dead is really following the rules...
Now if the perp had jumped off the streed car and started rushing the police then we have a cause to taser, fire shots, and kill. However this was clearly not the case.
Shoot first, then ask questions later.. I think not.
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07-30-2013, 02:18 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by NEWB
I don't recall in Police policy where it is approved to shoot, kill then Tazer. Can you quote your source on this for me as this is the path this has taken.
I would take the weight of video recordings any day over an officers word. If it were not for your coined "arm chair perceptions" polices would remain stagnet, no changes to command would happen and the same protocol would be followed as a precedence has been set.
Fact is he was not acting with in the rules when he fired the shots. Really... firing 9 shots killing someone who is on a street car with 2 exits, then tasering them after they are dead is really following the rules...
Now if the perp had jumped off the streed car and started rushing the police then we have a cause to taser, fire shots, and kill. However this was clearly not the case.
Shoot first, then ask questions later.. I think not.
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Well, you're good at making bold assertions, I'll give you that... Now maybe try backing them up with some evidence. It's a lot easier to make assertions than a reasoned argument to back up your position, but you really should make an attempt. Try to forgo the emotional points as well. They do nothing for your credibility.
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Pacifists exist at the pleasure of the more aggressive, or by the sacrifices made by the less passive.
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07-30-2013, 02:20 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by TomCanuck
In you opinion...
No question the optics here aren't good, but armchair perceptions don't or at least should not carry a lot of legal weight. Fact is, he might have been acting within the rules when he fired the shots. Time will tell, no doubt some have already made their conclusions based on the optics alone.
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IMO There can be a big discrepancy between the law and ethical conduct.
aka. Zimmerman Case
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07-30-2013, 02:25 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by RedLabel
IMO There can be a big discrepancy between the law and ethical conduct.
aka. Zimmerman Case
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Agreed, but here, the law is in the end what is used to decide the legality of the event. For that matter, a verdict of not guilty in a court of law does not mean a finding of innocence. Look at OJ Simpson, if you want an example of that.
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07-30-2013, 02:36 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by TomCanuck
Well, you're good at making bold assertions, I'll give you that... Now maybe try backing them up with some evidence. It's a lot easier to make assertions than a reasoned argument to back up your position, but you really should make an attempt. Try to forgo the emotional points as well. They do nothing for your credibility.
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You have failed to address my questions. I am not making my points on emotion. They are baised on fact.
I have had the pleasure of dealing with law enforcement countless times. The amount of times I have called them on questionable/illegal behaviour is amazing.
I have witnessed countless times officers lying to try to prove their point. Don't take my word for it.. Here is a recent example of the EPS. http://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/edmont...ce-report.html Go ahead.. read the report.
Shall we dive into the RCMP..
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07-30-2013, 02:36 PM
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From what I saw of the video, only one officer fired....why only one???
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07-30-2013, 02:41 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by CaberTosser
One thing is for certain, if buddy the perforated pervert didn't go waving his pecker at women while brandishing a knife we'd not be having this conversation.
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I think we should be careful about concluding this guys death was warranted by his conduct. In my opinion the waiving of a dinky and a knife do not warrant a death sentence. In addition we don't know what caused this guys behavior. I could be the result of a legitimate psychiatric illness that could have been treated. The issue here is whether the police acted properly. From the videos, I do not think they did. They were clearly not in immediate threat of harm. Pepper spray and tasers should have been the first option.
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07-30-2013, 02:46 PM
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Banned
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Quote:
Originally Posted by smith88
From what I saw of the video, only one officer fired....why only one???
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Good fire control. 
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07-30-2013, 02:47 PM
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Location: Edmonton
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Quote:
Originally Posted by waterhawk
I think we should be careful about concluding this guys death was warranted by his conduct. In my opinion the waiving of a dinky and a knife do not warrant a death sentence. In addition we don't know what caused this guys behavior. I could be the result of a legitimate psychiatric illness that could have been treated. The issue here is whether the police acted properly. From the videos, I do not think they did. They were clearly not in immediate threat of harm. Pepper spray and tasers should have been the first option.
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Agreed.
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07-30-2013, 02:54 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by NEWB
You have failed to address my questions. I am not making my points on emotion. They are baised on fact.
I have had the pleasure of dealing with law enforcement countless times. The amount of times I have called them on questionable/illegal behaviour is amazing.
I have witnessed countless times officers lying to try to prove their point. Don't take my word for it.. Here is a recent example of the EPS. http://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/edmont...ce-report.html Go ahead.. read the report.
Shall we dive into the RCMP.. |
Based on facts... Really, were you there.
Yeah didn't thinks so, but thanks for playing.
I'm well aware, that police misbehave from time to time. I'm also wise to the fact that even police are entitled to due process, and that those who make snap conclusions are an emotional bunch.
I only hope you are never called for jury duty, as I honestly don't think you're able to perform the job.
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07-30-2013, 02:58 PM
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Join Date: Jun 2012
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Quote:
Originally Posted by TomCanuck
Based on facts... Really, were you there.
Yeah didn't thinks so, but thanks for playing.
I'm well aware, that police misbehave from time to time. I'm also wise to the fact that even police are entitled to due process, and that those who make snap conclusions are an emotional bunch.
I only hope you are never called for jury duty, as I honestly don't think you're able to perform the job.
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Clearly you were not there either.
Again you have not addressed my questions. Why the delay.. can you not back it up?
What's with the ad hominem attacks? Again, stay on topic and address my quesiton.
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07-30-2013, 03:09 PM
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no way to justify this trigger happy shooting.
9 shots then a tazer for good measure.
Top it off with a paid suspension, {Holiday}
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07-30-2013, 03:13 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by NEWB
Clearly you were not there either.
Again you have not addressed my questions. Why the delay.. can you not back it up?
What's with the ad hominem attacks? Again, stay on topic and address my quesiton.
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Hey NEWB, remember, it's you who are proclaiming guilt. I've proclaimed nothing here. See the first post of the thread.
you've proven nothing. As for your question,"I don't recall in Police policy where it is approved to shoot, kill then Tazer. Can you quote your source on this for me as this is the path this has taken.", it seems to be a rhetorical question. People generally don't answer rhetorical questions.
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Pacifists exist at the pleasure of the more aggressive, or by the sacrifices made by the less passive.
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07-30-2013, 03:14 PM
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Join Date: Feb 2013
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Sad
Hope this young man doesn't have anyone that cares for him, would be hard to understand why your son was shot 9 times slowly by police and then tasered must have been still breathing after the first three, why taser?
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07-30-2013, 03:24 PM
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Location: Edmonton
Posts: 1,783
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Quote:
Originally Posted by TomCanuck
Hey NEWB, remember, it's you who are proclaiming guilt. I've proclaimed nothing here. See the first post of the thread.
you've proven nothing. As for your question,"I don't recall in Police policy where it is approved to shoot, kill then Tazer. Can you quote your source on this for me as this is the path this has taken.", it seems to be a rhetorical question. People generally don't answer rhetorical questions.
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Guilt is clear in this case, cover up will become clear in this case.
My question was not rhetorical. Perhaps you need to look up what a rhetorical question is. Can you cite me your sources where in police policy when dealing with conflict that it is appropriate to shoot first, kill then tazer? Let’s focus on the Toronto Police as this is relevant to the situation.
Regardless of what the perp did, the police actions were not justified. You don’t open fire, kill then tazer a lone occupant who is wielding a knife who was confined in a common carrier by the police. There was no risk to the police. As mentioned, there were very limited options the perp had to execute before he was a real threat to the Police.
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07-30-2013, 03:27 PM
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On QR77 this morning a guest claimed that only Sargents in the TPS have tasers. That seems strange to me. Anyone know what the truth is on that one.
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07-30-2013, 04:03 PM
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Join Date: Apr 2009
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First - cops don't run away!
Second - they don't want you to get away and hurt someone!
Third - 3 shots minimum.
Fourth - They don't play catch and release when their lives or someone else's is on the line.
None of us were there.
Personally I would like to see them be able to go home to their family!
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