Answer To Black Gun Debate

Based on your theory of 'a gun is a gun', why does stock color matter? Isn't it about preformance?

I think you just contradicted your own argument tree. A gun is a gun!!!!! So yes, it is about performance. Who cares if it's pink, tan, wood or black.

Since grenade launchers and silencers are illegal in Canada and elsewhere I suspect....it's kind of a moot point. I'm sure you could fit a silencer on any hunting rifle...illegal as it may be. A gun truly is a gun.

Hey Sheep,

Who cares if it is pink, tan, wood or black?

Answer: The 99% of the population who do not hunt, who vote in our governments.

Weak post Sheep, I expect better from you.

If you were a landowner whose livelihood depended upon his animals, and have had problems with hunters in the past, would you give permission to a guy sporting a gun designed to use a silencer and gernade launcher, regardless of the legalities?

That is really funny tree. NEVER have I ever been ask what "type" of rifle I will be hunting with on land I am hunting :rollin :rollin


AND I never ask what people are shooting when they ask our family for permission.


BTW..I use an Armalite AR180B-2 for my yote hunting. I have NEVER had anyone "scared" cause I had it...although...had a few "old boys" ask if they could put a few rounds through her though.


Talk about weak.

Tree, Do you often walk up to the door packing a gun when you ask permission? If you leave it in the truck you will most likely have better success securing access.:rollin
The truth of the matter is I can't remember the last farmer that ever saw a gun of mine or even saw me hunting their land after I had permission.
I think you are just dreaming up "what ifs" to continue limping along your tired old argument.

If you were to show a landowner (whom himself hunted or at least was open to giving permission) those two pics, which rifle would be most likely to get you permission?

would you give them permission?

Typically why would I care? I have no opinion as guns a mere pieces of metal to me when unloaded. When loaded they're pieces of metal that have to be carefully handled. I don't see why people aren't aloud to carry handguns in the woods for personal protection. Around a city sure but you're aloud to carry a large hunting caliber rifle but not a small handgun in the woods?

sporting a rifle capable of operating both a gernade launcher and a silencer

That's kind of a silly statement. Any gun threaded for 1/2X28 TPI (and others IIRC) can theoretically have a silencer. You can put a silencer on a non-threaded barrel. Any barrel with a muzzle brake of flash hider can theoretically operate with a silencer. Suppressors happend to be illegal.

You can own grenade launchers with no license. There was a scuffuffle a month or so ago. True grenade launchers just have to be registered with some govt dept. Still perfectly legal to possess. I've bought and sold quite a few

A grenade launcher is a mere tube and firing mechanism. If you can get your hands on grenade shells there's a bigger problem than the launcher itself...

The sooner we realize this the better. You can post all of the 'pink gun' pictures you want, but it dosen't matter. It is about STYLING.

That's kind of dumb. A tennis racket may look all the same to us but proffessionals have personal pref. It's kind of a silly argument.

One last point. If the AR with the wood furniture performs exactly the same as the one in the second pic, why do you need to use the 'black gun'?

Personal preference, modularity?

Based on your theory of 'a gun is a gun', why does stock color matter?

It's demonstrating a point. In theory they're all the same. Perception and limited interpretation pegs some guns more unpolitically correct than others.

THe ak47 in most forms is just a brick @#%$ house with poor yet foolproof design. There's a number of guns it performs similarly to (see the sks). The AK is banned because you see alquaida and the Taliban running around with them. The ak has been the most prevalent firearm in especially third world conflict. People see this and they associate it with death. The M1 garand, M1 Carbine, Lee enfield and M14 all saw alot of blood in the first and second world war but people relate to the present more than the past.

Isn't it about preformance? And from what I have heard, the AR is no 'sniper rifle'.

What you've heard is dead wrong. The ar15 in one of the most inherently accurate semi auto design. There's a reason Both us and our Southern neighbors still use this design in our military.

Tree Guy we are not picking on you, its just that you said some things that need to be answered.

Like:
"Isn't it about preformance? And from what I have heard, the AR is no 'sniper rifle'."

Actually ARs can be made to be very accurate and ARE now the choice of many long range target and varmint shooters, AND military snipers.

I see your point in away. You and many of the public do not know that an AR could be a very accurate hunting rifle and they think of them in a different light. We should do our best to educate people that they are a legitimate target and sporting rifle. I have even seen a pic in a magazine of an Alaskan guide carrying an AR modified (some form of .500cal round) as his back up gun.

You can't judge a book by its cover and you can't judge a rifle by its color but the pink AR is just wrong!!!

Robin

Tree we can go back and forth on this forever if we do nothing more than argue our personal thoughts because you diagree with mine and I disagree with yours and quite frankly it's been done to death. Let's stick to the facts okay??? And please refrain from telling my argument is weak....okay????? You wanted to debate this so let's do it civily and stick to the facts.

Here are the facts as I know them:

1) there is a small lobby intent on seeing certain semi autos banned and it was being considered by the liberal government.

2) Stockwell Day has emphatically said that a semi auto is a semi auto so to ban one you'd have to ban them all. He says you can only judge guns on performance and he is not willing to ban all semi autos.

3) There is no group to negotiate with on this. You can't play a game of give and take when there is no one to negotiate with. Who will let us keep certain guns if we give up others??????

4) This for the most part is a non issue. Few hunters use black guns to hunt with and fewer yet are in the public eye so why make such a huge issue out of a non issue??? It is counter productive at best.

And for the record, I never knock on a farmer's door with gun in hand either.......

Answer: The 99% of the population who do not hunt, who vote in our governments.

What's your source on this number Tree? Is this a fact or your own thought??? Show me some facts! Heck, show me one fact that supports what you are saying.

Sheep, you know as well as I do that I have no source. I only have an opinion. 99% of the people in my life do not hunt, and 99% of the people in their lives do not hunt.

209, I know this argument is tired, but in my opinion, it is worth it to me, personally, to take a beating over it. If my 'opinion' results in an increased awareness of the importance of public perception within our community then it's worth it to me in the end.

What I did notice though, is that no one made an honest attempt to answer the questions (hypothetical questions) I asked. Put yourselves into the place of the average landowner and answer my questions please. That's all I ask.

Tree I DO own land and I don't care what kind of rifles are shot there. I do care that ALL weapons are used safely.
There is your answer, so now answer me. You carry on and on about raising awareness in our community and then use made up stats like 99%, blah, blah. Are you too blind to see that you are preaching to the choir? If you really wanted to accomplish something get out in your community and campaign for the acceptance of black guns. That is what you want isn't it? Or do you want to see them banned?

What I did notice though, is that no one made an honest attempt to answer the questions (hypothetical questions) I asked. Put yourselves into the place of the average landowner and answer my questions please. That's all I ask.

AND I never ask what people are shooting when they ask our family for permission.

...and I am one and 99% of the people I know do hunt...most shoot at events also.Are you from Toronto?

No Gopherslayer, I'm not from Toronto, I live in the subburbs of Calgary.

209, I'm not 'making up' facts when I say that 99% of the people in my life do not hunt. It just is that way.

Sheep, I realize that this debate is circular because, in the end we are all gunowners and any changes to laws effect me as well as you. 209, good for you for allowing people to use your land, so long as they respect it and are safe. I however will not be campaigning either for or against 'black guns' in my community, and I do not advocate banning any gun. It's like banning a certain car because it is involved in a majority of impaired driving cases.

How both cars and guns are used depends entirely upon who is using them, plain and simple. A gun is a machine and a car is a machine. I agree with you guys on that.

What I am saying is that if guys like Zumbo can think of these guns as 'terrorist guns', what will an uneducated, urban population full of divas and metrosexuals think of them? If that misperception exists for a guy as promenant as Zumbo, and fully 27.1% of the votes on the 'Black Gun' poll thread of our members were against them, isn't that worth being aware of?

Look, when Osterb put up the picture of the SOPMOD M4 Accessory Kit, I knew in my head that it was just another gun, yet could not explain that slight feeling of unease in my gut. How would the public react if they knew that this style of gun can be used for hunting? There will come a day when 'who cares', and 'we have to do a better job of education', just won't cut it.

If as Osterb states that AKs are not permitted due to al quaida or the taliban, how much of a stretch is it for anti-hunting/gun groups to use the stepping stone of the AK, to go after the SOPMOD M4, the ARs, and all semi's in general as Sheep has correctly stated on multiple occasions. 'Assult Style' rifles are their perfect poster child.

That is where my unease is coming from. I just feel that the styling of these rifles (primarily the SOPMOD M4 type) could cause the hunting world more problems than it is worth in the long run. Ban them? Nope! Just be aware of the potential of the 'styling' to be onced again used to smear the sportmen's image in the public eye. Majority rules, we are a long way from being the majority. That's all.

That is where my unease is coming from. I just feel that the styling of these rifles (primarily the SOPMOD M4 type) could cause the hunting world more problems than it is worth in the long run.

If thats all your unease and where its comeing from no need to worry Enjoy the weekend live a little.

Tree guy, quit being a "Guy" and be a man for chrissakes. Take one of the 99% out to a range and let them enjoy shooting your guns if you have any.I don't give a fiddler's fog what anyone thinks of the guns I own, they're always welcome to shoot them and I'll remind them when they're out "Birding" or communing with nature in some other way that the monies taken from hunting and fishing licenses pay for their free enjoyment. I'm not knocking you but grow a pair and tell the world we're good, don't judge a book by its cover and quit watching so many cheesy movies, I mean when was the last time we heard of anyone doing a drive-by with an AR15 or a Ruger Vaquero?

I've spent my entire adult life trying to educate average people about hunting and shooting. In the past 15 years, there have been more rounds put through my guns by non-hunters whom I have taken to the range (or hunting), than by myself. I'm doing the best I can in a major urban center (Calgary) to help to educate people. So kindly, if you really want to know, I do have a pair, otherwise I wouldn't still be talking about this.

ok good for you guy stay strong

you must know when to stop other wise you might head for a well the pic tells the tail.

other wise someone might say to you well the pic you know >D

let it R.I.P:hat

Uh..Thanks Ken..I think.

Tree

Tree guy. How can non hunters go hunting and shooting your guns? Would that not make them hunters?
If a man walks in the forest and no woman can hear him, is he still wrong?

Come on Flicka, get up... WHIP! Help, Black Beauty isn't breathing... WHACK! WHIP!