Pointing dog trainer recommendations?

[Fry]

Wonder if anyone has recommendations?

For my GSP, really want to get him out of sharptail and huns and I'd rather be doing it myself but work is a bitch and won't slow down until after harvest. Its his second year which is a big one for development. Really can't afford to waste it. Add that to having a lab puppy that is doing lots of yard work, I'm strapped for time.

I'm looking for someone who is a pro, prefer they have something to show they can handle dogs, something tangible. Be it field trails, hunt tests, etc. Just can't afford to waste my time and money on amateurs.
Needs to do yard work as necessary as well, but I'm not hunting pigeons so I don't want a dog trained exclusively on them..

The guy I'd normally use also roads dogs, I really liked the shape of the dogs, accomplishes a lot more than I can with a bike ride and foot hunting. Be nice if he got the same workout. 2 months of that goes along way come hunting season.

Right now I'm just looking for options, I might end up seeing what I can do myself, or end up going to the same guy I did last year. We will see, but would be nice to know what the options are.

Thanks

[wwbirds]

Most of us have been field training since April and obedience training for 2-3 months before that and are now finally taking some family time until August. In August and early September we do only live bird training on the dogs that have been trained and conditioned all spring and summer.

[Fry]

Yeah, ok..
I know what your saying, thats why I'm looking for options.

I'm looking more for someone who runs dogs on the prairies more than pen raised pheasants. I don't run my dog on wild birds from april to mid july, and figure most pros don't either. With that I would assume some would be just starting up now?

I'm not really looking for pheasants as I'm happy with him on those, looking for wild huns and sharptail as that is what I think he needs more work on. I'd imagine most pros would need to see a dog on wild birds to know what the dog needs work on?

[wwbirds]

Don't know about Saskatchewan but in Alberta is illegal to train dogs on wild birds in the closed season as it interferes with nests and chick mortality at a very susceptible age.
Know some Ontario and US pointing dog trainers that ran horses and pointers for clients in Saskatchewan 6-7 years ago and heard they got shut down as well.

[Fry]

Its legal here, we have an actual bird dog regulation document. July 15 and onwards is ok.
Actually legal all year if you have under 5 dogs or something, as you aren't governed by the regs then, but you still use them anyway.
I think it stemmed from back in the day when a lot more field trialers were coming up to run sharptail here.
http://www.qp.gov.sk.ca/documents/En...s/W13-1R11.pdf

[wwbirds]

Could be the last I heard they were running 16-18 dogs with horses near Speedy Creek.
Rob

[Fry]

They still are closer to 40-60 dogs on horseback.

[FCLightning]

The closest pro to you doing what you want might be in Manitoba just over the border from Estevan.

[Fry]

Who is that?
I'm still waiting to here from the guy I would normally use, but haven't heard anything back, so need a backup plan.
I haven't ruled out just running him myself just not sure how I can commit enough time to do him justice. Birds are also an issue right now, hopefully it gets better but the last two times out haven't seen one single bird in places where we would have coveys of huns and sharptail mixed with pheasants just about every time we went out last year.

[Annie]

There is a guy coming up from Wyoming to Sask. in a couple of weeks to train pointing dogs until the field trial season starts down south

[densa44]

Did you train the dog last year and all winter? Is he steady, under control, does he point, steady on point, steady to flush and shot? Does he fetch and deliver, has he been forced?

What are you having problems with?

The reason we use pigeons, is that they are cheap/free and we can set the conditions to teach the lesson the dog needs to learn. Training on wild birds has other problems too, you don't know where the birds are, just the dog, you can't shoot them either.

Using penned birds is not perfect but it does speed up the training.

I think you can do this, your motivation is the key, the dog will learn very fast if the lessons are well thought out.

I'm spending the weekend in Red Deer with Rick Smith (dogs are coming too) there is always something new I can learn.

[Fry]

Hey Densa, he doesn't really need much for what I'm looking for out of him.
He points and holds pheasants moderately well, save the ones that run from under his point and we do the reposition, point, run, reposition, point, run thing over and over. Or the ones that get too nervous and only hold under point for a short time.
Hungarians he is doing well on, can catch their scent from a half mile a way, usually ends with a good point that he holds extremely well.
Only thing on those two birds would be get a check cord and a training buddy to finish. I have the check cord, the training buddy is that hard part.
Sharptail, when in a covey get bumped, breaks point or creeps. More often than not its not me flushing them. Singles seem to be ok, but coveys he seems to track them. Too much pheasant work I think.
The problem with having me fix it, is that when hunting sharptail he can get out there a long ways. Its great, I love it, I wouldn't want him any closer, but usually by the time I'm there to help him out they have flushed. Only cure would be horse I think haha.

This is why I'm not interested in pigeons or liberated birds as much. Not that they wouldn't help him, if I had an acreage I would have a coupe full of them. I think he would be really steady on them as they wouldn't be as exciting for him without the "hunt" part of it. I am not concerned about steady to wing or shot, with my shooting sometimes he needs a head start to look for the ornery winged pheasant. Though he is half steady to wing, from making him whoa when he bumps the sharptail.

I'm ok with everything else he does, he does fetch and deliver, just not always to hand. That stuff isn't bad, I can and do work on the yards stuff, just not live bird training. He is bird crazy, great nose, love his range, etc.

I subscribed to the thought that a first year pup can't do wrong, let him run and get crazy in the field. He has all the obedience down, hand signals, field commands are all decent, just from getting him out on the prairie a million times last year. This year we were snowed out all spring so it has been conditioning, barrel training, and reinforcing obedience.

The other thing is I can`t get his fitness up to the level of that a field trialer would. We ride bike hard, lots of long bird finding runs, and tons of swimming, he is in terrific shape but getting him to be able to pick up some speed and stamina would be a bonus. If we are out hunting threes hours I'd like to see a dog not have his tongue hanging out after an hour.

I know a lot of pointer folk hate retrievers haha, but I'm not one of them. I have a 5 month old lab that is getting her lead work and yard work at the same time. That is one of the reasons I wouldn't mind someone else handling my pointer for the next two months. I'm heading out this weekend hopefully run into some birds and see how he is doing now. He hasn't sniffed a sharptail for probably 8 months, might be 100% on them now.

[densa44]

So that these comments with a grain of salt. Wide ranging dogs will have a very hard time being steady if it takes you a long time to get to the point. I'd suggest having him work closer, he is getting himself tied out but it isn't putting birds in the bag. The reasons to have him steady to flush and shot, is 1. so he will mark a hit bird, if he breaks he won't see where it landed, and second so no other anxious hunter will accidentaly shoot your dog. That is ditto on retrieving to hand, if he drops it and it takes off again, anything can happen.

If you can get the Rick Smith video, I think it will help you both.

[kennedy]

spoke with an officer and said its ok to run dogs after july 15....there was a guy named bobby vaughn that works dogs in consort. dont have his number though.

[joshcat]

Just my two cents here, As with my own dogs and my clients. Once I establish they are bird Crazy they will not see another free running bird until I have 100% obedience and control. I use bird traps ( thanks rob for the other 2 as they are being used alot this year) and work on holding point and whoa training. I use force fetch exercises as a reward after. once you can have a dog on point whoa him, pop the trap and he doesnt move a muscle consistently, then I will run him on loose birds. only when you have control over the dog can you teach them how to work birds as it is a loosing battle and working backwards doing it the other way.

[Hipp55]

contact the secretary of region 14 American Field Trial Club.
She will know who is close and who has room for as GSP

http://www.region14aftca.com/region1...tpage&Itemid=1

[Annie]

Originally Posted by Hipp55

contact the secretary of region 14 American Field Trial Club.
She will know who is close and who has room for as GSP

http://www.region14aftca.com/region1...tpage&Itemid=1

I wouldn't count on that.

[Hipp55]

And why not? She would now who to contact of the competitive trialers and they do know who is around.

[puppyhood1]

Originally Posted by birds

Don't know about Saskatchewan but in Alberta is illegal to train dogs on wild birds in the closed season as it interferes with nests and chick mortality at a very susceptible age.
Know some Ontario and US pointing dog trainers that ran horses and pointers for clients in Saskatchewan 6-7 years ago and heard they got shut down as well.

As I agree with the idea of a closed season on training dogs on wild birds during nesting can you show me specifically were in the wildlife act it states there is a closure? I have yet to see it spelled out. The wording has changed many times over the years on the subject of training pointing dogs on game birds to were I can't find any specific wording other than the need for a permit to host a field trial. In the old days a Lic.. was required to train dogs by professional trainers and only in the south eastern part of the province. Even the professional trainer wording has gone. I have gone to fish and wildlife on more than a couple of occasions with no answer on the subject though it has been a few years....puphood1

[Fry]

As an update, got the pup out to the guy I normally use. Should be a machine when he gets back. Should have him steadied up, in fantastic shape and into lots of birds. It's a nice setup because its close and I can go out and ride there throughout training to watch progress and really learn how to handle the dog.

[densa44]

I agree with Joshcat and you getting involved with your pro can only help you both.

[FCLightning]

Originally Posted by puppyhood1

As I agree with the idea of a closed season on training dogs on wild birds during nesting can you show me specifically were in the wildlife act it states there is a closure? I have yet to see it spelled out. The wording has changed many times over the years on the subject of training pointing dogs on game birds to were I can't find any specific wording other than the need for a permit to host a field trial. In the old days a Lic.. was required to train dogs by professional trainers and only in the south eastern part of the province. Even the professional trainer wording has gone. I have gone to fish and wildlife on more than a couple of occasions with no answer on the subject though it has been a few years....puphood1

There is no closure in Alberta but the fraternity has held an unwritten rule on training for the most part.
I don't have the older version of the Wildlife Act any longer and it seems they are not available online so I cannot check when the wording was changed but the new act is rather troubling. As you have said, the wording for commercial trainers is gone from Section 50 of the Wildlife Act which would mean that anyone training any dog for the purpose of hunting in Alberta would require a permit to do so.

50
A person shall not, in a prescribed area, train or hold field trials for dogs for the purpose of hunting wildlife or retrieving game birds without a permit authorizing the person to do so.

This requirement is for all lands in Alberta regardless of the type of disposition of the lands - Private lands are included in the requirement as outlined in the Regulations.

118
(2)
The area prescribed for the purposes of section 50 of the Act in relation to the training of dogs is all of Alberta.

I believe the intent is to have commercial dog trainers take out permits to operate in Alberta since the regulations refer to Commercial Permits in Section 87 and there is not reference in any section to the issuance of Private training permits, but the wording of the Wildlife Act is not specific to that.
As for Townships 1-8 and Ranges 1-11 - all commercial training and trialing for the purpose of hunting and retrieving is prohibited, but I did not see a specific prohibition for an individual privately training under the non-existent permit.

[cohod]

I contacted ESRD about this recently, this is what I was sent in regards the the regulations surrounding training bird dogs in Alberta.

http://www.outdoorsmenforum.ca/attac...1&d=1374682567

for those that don't have Adobe reader...

FACT SHEET-DOG TRAINING REGULATIONS
Items in bold type represent new regulations.
DOG TRAINING
1. Individuals who, for gain or reward, train dogs to hunt or rt;trieve game birds (commercial dog
trainers) are required to annually obtain a commercial dog training permit. Applications for a
commercial dog training permit are available at any Fish and Wildlife Service office.
2. Commercial dog training is prohibited at all times of the year within the area of Alberta
encompassed by Townships 1-8, Ranges 1-11, W4M (sage grouse range).
3. An individual training his/her own dog to hunt or retrieve game birds does not require a dog training
permit.
4. An individual dog trainer (non-commercial dog trainer) training his/her own dog is prohibited from
training his/her dog on all public land within the area of Alberta encompassed by Townships 1-8,
Ranges 1-11, W4M during the period of April1 through July 31 each year.
DOG FIELD TRIALS
I. A person shall not, in a prescribed area, hold field trials for dogs for the purpose of hunting wildlife or
retrieving game birds without a permit authorizing him to do so.
• The 'prescribed area' identified in #1 refers to all of Alberta except privately owned land, land under the
control of the Department of National Defence (Canada), public land held under a grazing lease issued
under the Public Lands Act, and, land in a Metis settlement or on an Indian reserve.
• A person who wishes to operate a dog test or trial on privately owned land, land under the control of the
Department ofNat!ob.iu Defence (Canada), public land held under a grazing lease issued under the Public
Lands Act, or, land in a M~tis settlement or on an Indian reserve, may do so without a dog trialing permit.
2. The Minister may issue a dog trialing permit to a person who wishes to operate a dog test or trial
sanctioned by an organized group of persons involved in dog training or trialing.
3. Field trials for dogs are prohibited at all times of the year on all public land within the areas of
Alberta encompassed by Townships 1-8, Ranges 1-11, W4M.
4. As a matter of policy, persons wishing to hold a 'shoot -to-kill' field trial, during which birds are shot, have
three options:
• Conduct the field trial on a licenced game bird shooting ground,
• Conduct the trial using animals that are neither classed as wildlife nor controlled-animals under regulations
(chukar partridge, bobwhite quail, pigeons), or
• Conduct the field trial during the open hunting season for the species being shot, with shooters confined by
hunting regulations pertaining to licences and bag limits.
OTHER RELATED REGULATIONS
1. Individuals who, without killing birds, train a dog to locate live, wild upland game birds as a part of
dog training are exempt from the strict definition of 'hunting.'
2. Organizations who retain legally harvested game birds for dog 'training events (field trials) and
. individuals who use thes.~ legally harvested game .birds for dog training purposes are exempt from
the regulations prohibiting wastage of the edible portion of game birds.

cohod

[FCLightning]

I wonder what Sections of the Act and Regulations they are using to justify some of their interpretations - such as the date range for prohibition of private training in the Southeast.

[puppyhood1]

Originally Posted by FCLightning

I wonder what Sections of the Act and Regulations they are using to justify some of their interpretations - such as the date range for prohibition of private training in the Southeast.

The now threat ended Sage Grouse home range. I believe this are was even larger in their original proposals. Also it leaves a opening to Amt. training in the area outside the specific dates....

http://www.qp.alberta.ca/documents/Acts/W10.pdf

puphood1

[puppyhood1]

Originally Posted by cohod

I contacted ESRD about this recently, this is what I was sent in regards the the regulations surrounding training bird dogs in Alberta.

http://www.outdoorsmenforum.ca/attac...1&d=1374682567

for those that don't have Adobe reader...

FACT SHEET-DOG TRAINING REGULATIONS
Items in bold type represent new regulations.
DOG TRAINING
1. Individuals who, for gain or reward, train dogs to hunt or rt;trieve game birds (commercial dog
trainers) are required to annually obtain a commercial dog training permit. Applications for a
commercial dog training permit are available at any Fish and Wildlife Service office.
2. Commercial dog training is prohibited at all times of the year within the area of Alberta
encompassed by Townships 1-8, Ranges 1-11, W4M (sage grouse range).
3. An individual training his/her own dog to hunt or retrieve game birds does not require a dog training
permit.
4. An individual dog trainer (non-commercial dog trainer) training his/her own dog is prohibited from
training his/her dog on all public land within the area of Alberta encompassed by Townships 1-8,
Ranges 1-11, W4M during the period of April1 through July 31 each year.
DOG FIELD TRIALS
I. A person shall not, in a prescribed area, hold field trials for dogs for the purpose of hunting wildlife or
retrieving game birds without a permit authorizing him to do so.
• The 'prescribed area' identified in #1 refers to all of Alberta except privately owned land, land under the
control of the Department of National Defence (Canada), public land held under a grazing lease issued
under the Public Lands Act, and, land in a Metis settlement or on an Indian reserve.
• A person who wishes to operate a dog test or trial on privately owned land, land under the control of the
Department ofNat!ob.iu Defence (Canada), public land held under a grazing lease issued under the Public
Lands Act, or, land in a M~tis settlement or on an Indian reserve, may do so without a dog trialing permit.
2. The Minister may issue a dog trialing permit to a person who wishes to operate a dog test or trial
sanctioned by an organized group of persons involved in dog training or trialing.
3. Field trials for dogs are prohibited at all times of the year on all public land within the areas of
Alberta encompassed by Townships 1-8, Ranges 1-11, W4M.
4. As a matter of policy, persons wishing to hold a 'shoot -to-kill' field trial, during which birds are shot, have
three options:
• Conduct the field trial on a licenced game bird shooting ground,
• Conduct the trial using animals that are neither classed as wildlife nor controlled-animals under regulations
(chukar partridge, bobwhite quail, pigeons), or
• Conduct the field trial during the open hunting season for the species being shot, with shooters confined by
hunting regulations pertaining to licences and bag limits.
OTHER RELATED REGULATIONS
1. Individuals who, without killing birds, train a dog to locate live, wild upland game birds as a part of
dog training are exempt from the strict definition of 'hunting.'
2. Organizations who retain legally harvested game birds for dog 'training events (field trials) and
. individuals who use thes.~ legally harvested game .birds for dog training purposes are exempt from
the regulations prohibiting wastage of the edible portion of game birds.

cohod

Thanks for the info and it is much as I though it was. Q: When did you get this info and from whom? ...puphood1

[FCLightning]

Originally Posted by puppyhood1

The now threat ended Sage Grouse home range. I believe this are was even larger in their original proposals. Also it leaves a opening to Amt. training in the area outside the specific dates....

http://www.qp.alberta.ca/documents/Acts/W10.pdf

puphood1

There is no wording in the Act nor in the associated Regulations which would justify a closure on any specific dates.

[cohod]

Originally Posted by puppyhood1

Thanks for the info and it is much as I though it was. Q: When did you get this info and from whom? ...puphood1

Talked guy by the name of Craig and received the PDF on Friday July 19th 2013.

cohod